Interesting thoughts

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by brass410

I have hunted many years now for vermin to moose. And can only think of maybe three times when the absolute perfect shot was availible (virtually point blank less than 5 yards) add to that as a tracker I suck and hate doing it. I prefer bang drt flop type of kills. And we all know that dosent happen by chance irregardless of calibre/cartridge if your not proficient (reads practice practice from most uncomfortable positions) you are probably gonna have to let it walk or deal with wounding it. Speed/energy/diameter only kills if it hits with accuracy. This is only my theory you may substitute your own if desired.

I agree with your theory as do many others. From an accuracy standpoint, on a thread like this one that is dicussing cartridge lethality, I think it is best to assume all shooters are of equal shooting proficency and take it from there.. We all appear to know that a misplaced shot sometimes happens and is not a good thing regardless of the cartridge/bullet used. As this thread is about bigger vs smaller calibres on all types and sizes of Big Game, most have a pretty good idea
of which is better in thier own view and experiences. Not every cartridge developed in the last 120 years seems to cut it as some might think.

[thumper]

Us 'little dick' guys are fond of the saying "It's not the size of the sword, - but the ferocity of the attack" that matters ! Or 'accuracy' of the attack - as the case may be ....

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Or you could bring some super mag and flinch like a *&^%^&*$ and wound that trophy of a lifetime then live with that on your conscience for the rest of your life. It is all in your perspective. I have let more then a few fine animals walk and they are some of my best memories.

If you can handle a Ferrari then so be it, but to be honest most people can barely handle their Kia's.

Not everyone that shoots a 300 has a flinch and not everyone that shoots a 6.5 is a marksmen

What makes me laugh about these threads. Is the guys who are the biggest advocates of these small cartridges, yet they valiantly oppose a modern designed muzzle brake. Im not talking the cheapo radial brakes they give you when you buy a rifle. I’m talking a well designed directional brake that pushes the blast away from you. They cost around $200 a piece so I know a lot of the complainers have never touched one 🤷*♂️

[kw12]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Not everyone that shoots a 300 has a flinch and not everyone that shoots a 6.5 is a marksmen

What makes me laugh about these threads. Is the guys who are the biggest advocates of these small cartridges, yet they valiantly oppose a modern designed muzzle brake. Im not talking the cheapo radial brakes they give you when you buy a rifle. I’m talking a well designed directional brake that pushes the blast away from you. They cost around $200 a piece so I know a lot of the complainers have never touched one 🤷*♂️

I have a .300 win mag that I shoot quite comfortably. Mind you it has a ks arms muzzle break on it but shoot it with zero issues and I’m not a big guy. I also shoot a 6.5 creedmoor and I am far from a marksmen so you hit the nail on the head with that comment lol

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by kw12

I have a .300 win mag that I shoot quite comfortably. Mind you it has a ks arms muzzle break on it but shoot it with zero issues and I’m not a big guy. I also shoot a 6.5 creedmoor and I am far from a marksmen so you hit the nail on the head with that comment lol

I have owned and shot some rifles chambered in VERY big cartridges over the years, including a Sako TRGS 33S in lapua and a 450 Ackley magnum , as well as several 375's.None of these hunting rifles ever had brakes on them. I simply can't anymore shoot heavy recoiling rifles anymore, in fact I was off shooting for over a year at one time, even holding my 9 pound match rifle prone was a nogo.
This was because of nerve damage in my neck and shoulder area from my trade over the years ( and a few wrecks didn't help)

As far as brakes go, I regularly work on braked rifles for guys , I simply do not like them, and doo not really need one for the cartridges I shoot but then I don't own a lever action repeater either for the same reason.
I did buy back a match rifle that I originally sold, that had a PTG braked installed on it after, but sold the barrel because I use it as an iron sighted match rifle and the two do not work well together.
Cat

[roper1]

My observation......the Magnumitis boys aren't the problem.

We see under-gunned everywhere. Fella pulling a 97' toy-hauler with an F150.

If we're aged or infirm or just don't like recoil, so be it. Don't lump large caliber choice with poor shooting. For years, I shot an '06. Worked great. As I got older & a bit more money, and less hunting time, I wanted to make sure. Regularly shoot 140lb deer with a 300. The butchers on here tell us time & again less wasted meat. Wife & myself butcher ours, same observation.

Confidence because the shot might be longer, or the game a true wall-hanger. Evening, have to work tomorrow. I bought a beauty .243 off an older friend, hunted lots, he just said too many next day recoveries.

CONCEPT. There are minimum caliber requirements for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Most guides/outfitters will ask for 30 cal minimum, but bring the biggest gun you can shoot comfortably.

[58thecat]

I have known a few guides over the years and they would have spare rifles, 270,30-06,243.....reasoning was that clients seem to drop a poop load of cash on a hunt, show up out of shape and totally over gunned for their abilities.
So at the table a few shots and if the guide didn’t like what he saw they would hand them one of theirs....ohhh and many clients left the big boom stick as a gift.

When I was up in Alaska believe it or not 30-06 was used extensively....why...very shootable and capeable.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by roper1

My observation......the Magnumitis boys aren't the problem.

We see under-gunned everywhere. Fella pulling a 97' toy-hauler with an F150.

If we're aged or infirm or just don't like recoil, so be it. Don't lump large caliber choice with poor shooting. For years, I shot an '06. Worked great. As I got older & a bit more money, and less hunting time, I wanted to make sure. Regularly shoot 140lb deer with a 300. The butchers on here tell us time & again less wasted meat. Wife & myself butcher ours, same observation.

Confidence because the shot might be longer, or the game a true wall-hanger. Evening, have to work tomorrow. I bought a beauty .243 off an older friend, hunted lots, he just said too many next day recoveries.

CONCEPT. There are minimum caliber requirements for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Most guides/outfitters will ask for 30 cal minimum, but bring the biggest gun you can shoot comfortably.

A quick search shows that there are only about 10 States that do not allow the .223 to used for big game, but there may be more.
I think B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and New Brunswick allow it as well.
Not that I would use one as a specific big game rifle, but there are some .22 centerfires that I would have no issue with .

I really think t matters about how well a person shoots, not what they shoot.
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by roper1

My observation......the Magnumitis boys aren't the problem.

We see under-gunned everywhere. Fella pulling a 97' toy-hauler with an F150.

If we're aged or infirm or just don't like recoil, so be it. Don't lump large caliber choice with poor shooting. For years, I shot an '06. Worked great. As I got older & a bit more money, and less hunting time, I wanted to make sure. Regularly shoot 140lb deer with a 300. The butchers on here tell us time & again less wasted meat. Wife & myself butcher ours, same observation.

Confidence because the shot might be longer, or the game a true wall-hanger. Evening, have to work tomorrow. I bought a beauty .243 off an older friend, hunted lots, he just said too many next day recoveries.

CONCEPT. There are minimum caliber requirements for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Most guides/outfitters will ask for 30 cal minimum, but bring the biggest gun you can shoot comfortably.

I know a lot of guides and outfitters and have been one (licensed). I’m struggling to think of a single one that recommends a 30 cal minimum. But I do know that most of them are not gun guys and really have only a rudimentary knowledge of bullets and cartridges.

I also know of a pile, a pile, of game killed with a 243 with zero recovery issues.

[Smoky buck]

This is a go no where thread and some really broad claims regarding outfitter mins that definitely do not apply to all. Also very broad claims regarding what is required for some game

I am really tempted to send a link of this thread to some of the ex grizzly guides I know in BC and listen to them laugh. 2 have plenty of experience with the big coastal bears comparable to Alaskan browns. The funny thing is all agree they are ***** cat’s compared to the mountain bears and no harder to put down. It would probably surprise some what a few of these guys preferred as their back up rifle.

You want some extra bone crushing power and retain it at longer range with a larger chunk of lead I can understand why you want a magnum but to think it’s a must or should be strived for by everyone I would not agree. If this is your thing and you shoot it well giver

This doesn’t mean try to take down an elephant with a BB gun either. But a size appropriate caliber a guy shoots well is often all that is needed.

The caliber debates never make it anywhere and have heard all kinds of crazy opinions over the years.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

100%
Some people don’t want to let that bull of a lifetime walk into the bush at 400 yards because they brought a 30/30 or a 243

Meh. Good chance they will still send a 100 gr spire point in that direction. Results may vary

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Meh. Good chance they will still send a 100 gr spire point in that direction. Results may vary

No doubt there are those who make poor choices regardless of caliber

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

This is a go no where thread and some really broad claims regarding outfitter mins that definitely do not apply to all. Also very broad claims regarding what is required for some game

I am really tempted to send a link of this thread to some of the ex grizzly guides I know in BC and listen to them laugh. 2 have plenty of experience with the big coastal bears comparable to Alaskan browns. The funny thing is all agree they are ***** cat’s compared to the mountain bears and no harder to put down. It would probably surprise some what a few of these guys preferred as their back up rifle.

You want some extra bone crushing power and retain it at longer range with a larger chunk of lead I can understand why you want a magnum but to think it’s a must or should be strived for by everyone I would not agree. If this is your thing and you shoot it well giver

This doesn’t mean try to take down an elephant with a BB gun either. But a size appropriate caliber a guy shoots well is often all that is needed.

The caliber debates never make it anywhere and have heard all kinds of crazy opinions over the years.

I heard of a guy who shot and killed a Moose with a pellet gun.

“A moose that is attacking you — or your family, or your dog — you can defend yourself and kill that moose, but you have to be willing to defend your actions for a DLP (defense of life or property kill),” said Larry Lewis, wildlife technician with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. “But, a moose just being in the yard isn’t a justifiable reason to kill it.”

Jimmy Dean Rice, of Soldotna, found this out the hard way after being charged by Alaska Wildlife Troopers for a Class A Misdemeanor for illegally taking a moose during a closed season, after he allegedly shot at a moose with a pellet gun this summer.

With a court case pending, Dean Rice declined to comment on the situation. According to a report filed with the Kenai District Court, at about 11:30 p.m. July 16, Rice used a Beeman Model R9 pellet gun — a .177-caliber firearm that shoots at approximately 1,700 feet per second — to shoot a moose that was acting “weird.”

According to court documents, Rice said he planned to shoot the moose in its “ass” to just scare it away, but after shooting the moose it ran a few yards, fell down and died. Large amounts of blood were reported coming from the moose’s nostril and mouth.

Trooper investigation found the dead moose to be approximately 20 yards from Rice’s residence in the tree line, and according to Rice’s own statement the moose did not pose a threat to life or property at the time of the shooting. Troopers noted that Rice’s yard was well manicured with flowers and bushes, which might have drawn in the animal.

Rice stated to troopers that a number of things could have happened to the moose prior to him shooting at it, but added that, while he had “no intention of killing the moose,” he was likely the “culprit,” and added that killing a moose with one shot from a pellet gun qualified him as either the luckiest or unluckiest person in the world.

I do not offer an opinion as to authenticity of this report.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I heard of a guy who shot and killed a Moose with a pellet gun.



I do not offer an opinion as to authenticity of this report.

More people win the lottery every week

[Savage Bacon]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I heard of a guy who shot and killed a Moose with a pellet gun.







I do not offer an opinion as to authenticity of this report.

I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if it was mentioned but didn't some groups used to shoot moose in the stomach with a .22 and just wait for them to die?

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[marky_mark]

People choose calibers and Cartridges for a million different reasons
What’s good for you, may not be good for me
It’s just the way it is
Peoples experiences dictate what they deem adequate
And everyone has different experiences
Plus there is so many different options and choices

[spoiledsaskhunter]

......differences in opinion.

if we all thought alike, there would be only one caliber and we would all use it.

this is just about a whole bunch of old women(men) arguing. no solution/consensus will EVER be reached.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Savage Bacon

I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if it was mentioned but didn't some groups used to shoot moose in the stomach with a .22 and just wait for them to die?

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I know od four trappers ( all native ) that shot moose and two bears with a .22LR and they shot them in the ear not the stomach.
The fact is that the .22LR was the rifle that was carried 90% of the time unless a person was actually moose hunting .
Cat

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by BigJon

I’ll have to dissent again here LOL.

Based on experience, I have no problem with .22 centrefires for big game.

Bullet construction is simply light years ahead of when these minimums were put into practice.

Based on your experience it sure would be enlightening if you explained just how todays modern bullets are "light years ahead" of the older style C&C and Cor-Lokd bullets of days gone by. With the exception of todays Mono's and maybe a few Bergers, it seems to me that the older bullet designs and construction are still holding up pretty well.

[obsessed1]

Wow this thread derailed quickly....the original post was not about if you like or want or need a big caliber but rather why we think small calibers are only good for kids and women. And why we allow both our kids and our wives hunt right along side us using these calibers and we accept them as decent for the job yet we need a 300wm. And as soon as a child is bigger he should shoot a bigger caliber. Because the one hes using now only works for kids and women.....reality is the legal rifle one learns on is likely more than sufficient for 95% of an everyday hunter...not someone paying $$$$ to hunt elephants....the vast majority of hunters will never be in that position.

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[BigJon]

Jacket and core hardness, jacket taper/thickness, overall weight of the base of a bullet relative to it’s total weight have all evolved over the years to produce a better bullet with better terminal performance.

Bullets that have a mechanical feature have also evolved. Some bullets in the partition line up have had the “partition” moved to a different location. Same with the “interlock” ring on Hornady interlocks.

Manufacturers will make changes after years of data indicate it may be a good idea.

Using light years to describe the changes to jacketed bullets is an overstatement on my part however the changes have been significant and have made bullets better.

The development of accurate, reliably expanding mono-metals has been huge and appears to be continuing to get better though we get shut out on much of that here in Canada.

[obsessed1]

As a side note....what percentage of hunters ever go on a guided dangerous game hunt? I'd bet it's a small percentage. Again what percent of hunters hunt in a place where actual chance of encountering a dangerous game animal while hunting? There's an argument for large calibers...moose, elk, g bears ect but again such a small percentage of hunters actually hunt these game species compared to the millions of deer hunters

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[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Wow this thread derailed quickly....the original post was not about if you like or want or need a big caliber but rather why we think small calibers are only good for kids and women. And why we allow both our kids and our wives hunt right along side us using these calibers and we accept them as decent for the job yet we need a 300wm. And as soon as a child is bigger he should shoot a bigger caliber. Because the one hes using now only works for kids and women.....reality is the legal rifle one learns on is likely more than sufficient for 95% of an everyday hunter...not someone paying $$$$ to hunt elephants....the vast majority of hunters will never be in that position.

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Simple way to explain my opinion
6.5 creedmoor 143 eldx 2700 fps at the muzzle
6.5 prc 143 eldx 2960fps muzzle 2660fps at 200 yards
26 nosler 140gr accubond 3412fps muzzle 2670fps at 400 yards

So what ever the 6.5 creedmoor can do, these other cartridges just do it better

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

As a side note....what percentage of hunters ever go on a guided dangerous game hunt? I'd bet it's a small percentage. Again what percent of hunters hunt in a place where actual chance of encountering a dangerous game animal while hunting? There's an argument for large calibers...moose, elk, g bears ect but again such a small percentage of hunters actually hunt these game species compared to the millions of deer hunters

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This is a whole different topic

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Simple way to explain my opinion
6.5 creedmoor 143 eldx 2700 fps at the muzzle
6.5 prc 143 eldx 2960fps muzzle 2660fps at 200 yards
26 nosler 140gr accubond 3412fps muzzle 2670fps at 400 yards

So what ever the 6.5 creedmoor can do, these other cartridges just do it better

There is another aspect of those cartridges and that is availability factory ammo and available brass for those that do .
Many people do not hand load, and if they do , there can be issues getting brass for the PRC and thd 26 Nosler.
Not to mention the recoil fact of the last two.
Personally speaking for a hunting rifle of the three I like the PRC the best
Cat

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

There is another aspect of those cartridges and that is availability factory ammo and available brass for those that do .
Many people do not hand load, and if they do , there can be issues getting brass for the PRC and thd 26 Nosler.
Not to mention the recoil fact of the last two.
Personally speaking for a hunting rifle of the three I like the PRC the best
Cat

Prc brass is being made by lapua now which is great
But I agree with you 100%

I’m just saying you may start someone with a 6.5 creedmoor. It’s works, but there is definitely an advantage to bumping up the velocity. As your skills improve and knowledge increases. Your personal limits may increase more than what that starter rifle is capable of. How many people buy a quality rifle as their first rifle either? Most are buying an axis or something like that. So their are usually upgrading that first rifle anyways 🤷*♂️

[catnthehat]

Always lots of options , yup.
I wouldn't start a new hunter on a 6.5Prc though. But that is just me .
Cat

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

How about a bigger hole in the right spot?

Nothing beats a big hole going in and a big hole coming out.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Simple way to explain my opinion
6.5 creedmoor 143 eldx 2700 fps at the muzzle
6.5 prc 143 eldx 2960fps muzzle 2660fps at 200 yards
26 nosler 140gr accubond 3412fps muzzle 2670fps at 400 yards

So what ever the 6.5 creedmoor can do, these other cartridges just do it better

Velocity is not always your friend especially up close and personal. Yes at distances over 300 yards or so velocity will do more but most people never shoot beyond 200-250 yards so the point is moot.

MOST big game bullets are designed to work at moderate velocities not at hyper velocity. Mono bullet might be the exception but not conventional bullets per say.

I have chased the velocity rabbit and the returns were marginal at best.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Wow this thread derailed quickly....the original post was not about if you like or want or need a big caliber but rather why we think small calibers are only good for kids and women. And why we allow both our kids and our wives hunt right along side us using these calibers and we accept them as decent for the job yet we need a 300wm. And as soon as a child is bigger he should shoot a bigger caliber. Because the one hes using now only works for kids and women.....reality is the legal rifle one learns on is likely more than sufficient for 95% of an everyday hunter...not someone paying $$$$ to hunt elephants....the vast majority of hunters will never be in that position.

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The answer to that question is very simple and will never be accepted by the self appointed experts.