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View Poll Results: Would You Support Volunteer Police Departments?
Yes 79 45.14%
No 96 54.86%
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  #61  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:52 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Bring in Castle law and the thieves and home invaders will think twice before committing crimes. The thieves don't fear our police or the courts, which is why rural crime keeps increasing.
While that is one bandaid, the real solution is fixing our legal system.

The majority of these criminals are well known to police and repeat offenders. In fact (contrary to what you want to hear), that is why alot of the response times are not as quick as you would like. Wouldn't you get fed up catching the same person over and over again, only to see them released with a slap on the wrist.

Did you know that some criminals will actually time their crimes/captures so they can get a warm bed/meal during the winters. There is no FEAR of going to jail.

That is what is wrong.
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  #62  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:00 AM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
Written during a time when if you stole a horse you hung...we have tooooo many snowflakes today...oh he was a good person, didn't mean to get wrapped up in that crowd....blablabla....
What are you talking about getting hung for horses? Robert peels idea is that the route to safer communities is dependant on the community being involved and aware of their issues. If people shut their windows and turn a blind eye, then the person needing help is on their own. Robert peel doesnt say what level of participation is put onto the public, but neighborhood watch definately comes to mind.
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  #63  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:17 AM
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The point is if you live in town with tons of resources you might not understand my fear. We've had 2 neighbors in as many weeks have firearms pulled on them. How long until one of these thugs comes down my driveway? What if Im away and they hold my kids and wife at gun point? Police could have over an hour response time. That's unacceptable for me, I want someone there quickly. That's why I came up with the idea of volunteer deputies.

As it is all the neighbors will most likely be going in on security systems and we'll be responding to each others homes if they go off.

Understood. However, I never said, nor meant to convey, that rural people don't have reason for concern about crime, just as anyone who lives anywhere has. But that's no reason to take a bad idea and implement it. Having amateurs trying to stop and take down "criminals" they believe might have broken into a house is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least, mistrials.
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  #64  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:19 AM
243 wild cat 243 wild cat is offline
 
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Cool Sumbags have no right people none they lose that right when they victimize you!

Its has some good thoughts Raab but your fighting a losing battle here some of these fellers can't see beyond what needs to be done to help change the deterrence on scumbags victmizing innocent people! I agree on the support but how things are going with the laws and what i have been told personally by the RCMP that there hands are tied to really make a difference on crime when they just keep letting them out and most of the scumbags get more violent in there crimes. We are all better off with just helping your neighbours and family by standing strong and dealing with the scum that's out there to victimize you. No one will ever tell me that i have no right to protect my family or my property NO ONE! A shovel with no story would help this rule crime spree. I would sleep like a rock for the rest of my life if i had to take drastic measures to protect myself or some one else confronting scumbags that will harm me that would be their choice first and that would seal there fate. Im just saying we all have a choice Stay safe people

I vote carry a big stick and walk softly, X2

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes
I dont think a volunteer force is the answer. If RCMP actually came when first called this would help rural crime but the real deterrent would be if home owners could start gut shooting some of these thugs or chopping hands off would be a real deterrent...... Something tells me that could work Smokinyotes lol
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  #65  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:27 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
Sorry Raab.. But you are emotional because of what has happened around you, and are not thinking straight..

The time commitment alone would kill this "volunteer" aspect of it, with all the training (and retraining), then the actual time for "policing".

One sentence your stating these "volunteers" would assist RCMP on dangerous situations, and the next you'd say they would only help with these basic crimes.. I don't know who you think is committing all these crimes, but the vast majority of them are crack heads/lifers feeding their habits. In other words, they are dangerous as was proved by the situations that happened to your neighbors. Your solution wouldn't work for your situation.

Notice I haven't even mentioned the liability part.. (which is why this is a no-go).

As I mentioned, Why not discuss the situation with your neighbors (and local LEO), and create a watch, but make it a visible watch. Switch nights with your neighbors driving up and down the roads with an orange flashing light on the roof and a security sign slapped on the side. That alone would deter most criminals. Remember, the same reason you bought in the country (peace and quiet) is the same reason criminals are finding these "easy" targets.

Put up signs saying "smile your on camera", buy some cheap fake cameras, and place them near the sign.
They won't be policing very much if they only go to serious calls and apprehensions. A bit of Patrol every now and then. Like I said no ticketing or traffic stops. Most communities dont have that much serious crime so they wont be called out often. The biggest thing would be that criminals would know someone is coming and they will be arrested if they do commit a crime. They dont have 40 minutes to sit their hold you at gun point and steal your gasoline and vehicles.

As I said we need to do something or some innocent farmer is going to end up in jail for shooting a crackhead. You yourself said these people could be(IMO ARE) dangerous, and youre alright leaving people alone waiting 40 minutes for a police officer to respond. Give you head a shake man. Now whether they're volunteers or paid on call (meaning they get paid a small amount for hours on call and full wages when they get called out) they would still have all the training a peace officer in Alberta receives. Only difference is they would specialize in apprehension and S&R. I know a few farmers around my place who are ex military. They're already talking about how we solve this issue.
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  #66  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:31 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Understood. However, I never said, nor meant to convey, that rural people don't have reason for concern about crime, just as anyone who lives anywhere has. But that's no reason to take a bad idea and implement it. Having amateurs trying to stop and take down "criminals" they believe might have broken into a house is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least, mistrials.
Is it better if I just shoot the guy who shows up at my place with a gun? If you dont want TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS doing the work then I want castle doctrine and the right to carry.
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  #67  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:41 AM
pikeman06 pikeman06 is offline
 
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I live in central alberta east. People are fed up with the crime and I think it's just a matter of time till someone takes the law into their own hands. Police are basically nowhere to be seen and response times are ridiculous. I little more patrol time would definitely help. If the cops would get out at night and patrol the small towns and pull over the odd guy late at night on the highways I'm sure they would be stumble upon the odd criminal. You see them make a pass thru town at 3pm on a Sunday...never at night. I'm not sure what the logic is. Alot of people out here have given up on the police and are talking crazy about vigilante type action and I hardly blame them. Sad state of affairs.
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  #68  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Is it better if I just shoot the guy who shows up at my place with a gun?
Yes. Then at least you are killing the perpetrator who threatens you with a gun, not stopping some innocent guy on the road because you got a call and you THINK he sort matches the vague description you got. And then you had to shoot him because he resisted you arresting him, like our Florida citizens patrol vigilante Zimmerman.


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Originally Posted by raab View Post
If you dont want TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS doing the work then I want castle doctrine and the right to carry.
"TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS" are exactly what I want. What you suggested was volunteer non-professional part-timers, was it not?
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  #69  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:05 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Yes. Then at least you are killing the perpetrator who threatens you with a gun, not stopping some innocent guy on the road because you got a call and you THINK he sort matches the vague description you got. And then you had to shoot him because he resisted you arresting him, like our Florida citizens patrol vigilante Zimmerman.




"TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS" are exactly what I want. What you suggested was volunteer non-professional part-timers, was it not?
You know you can be trained and not do a job full time right? Just like the fire department gets training. You can't just roll up on a structure fire and go in. It takes training before your even allowed to go on calls. IMO paid on call Deputies are the most cost effective solution for rural communities.
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  #70  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:07 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
They won't be policing very much if they only go to serious calls and apprehensions. A bit of Patrol every now and then. Like I said no ticketing or traffic stops.
There's really no point then, if they are only occasionally patrolling (and on call). Chances of these volunteers being able to respond faster than a LEO is pretty slim, unless it happens out front of their house or you train every person in the community.

Most of these thefts are from people that have scoped out the property, and usually know that households schedule.

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Most communities dont have that much serious crime so they wont be called out often. The biggest thing would be that criminals would know someone is coming and they will be arrested if they do commit a crime. They dont have 40 minutes to sit their hold you at gun point and steal your gasoline and vehicles.
They already know someone is coming (and don't know when). You keep saying 40 minutes?? Response time is a variable that is location/environment/etc dependent. That goes for these volunteers as well.

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As I said we need to do something or some innocent farmer is going to end up in jail for shooting a crackhead. You yourself said these people could be(IMO ARE) dangerous, and youre alright leaving people alone waiting 40 minutes for a police officer to respond. Give you head a shake man.
Once again.. 40 mins.. I bet by the time you get off your laptop looking at conspiracy theories, put your pants on, answer the phone, stumble into your vehicle, then drive 15kms to respond to an incident, 40mins will also have passed. oh, and that's if you were actually awake when the call came.

You sir.. Need to give your head a shake, and think about the logistics of what you are talking about.

If the appearance of authority is all you are wanting, why not create that now? Why does there have to be any training/guns/etc? You're just looking for an excuse to open carry.

If your neighbors are actually ex-military, why not create a patrol? Throw a sign on the car that is patrolling, and drive around 24/7, take turns, showing presence.

(I know that doesn't play into your agenda, but that alone would reduce your neighborhood crime)
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  #71  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:16 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
You know you can be trained and not do a job full time right? Just like the fire department gets training. You can't just roll up on a structure fire and go in. It takes training before your even allowed to go on calls. IMO paid on call Deputies are the most cost effective solution for rural communities.
Why not? If I saw a house on fire, first thing, call 911, second check if there's anyone inside, whether that involves me going it or not depends on the situation. Zero training.

You're still comparing apples to oranges..

What you are talking about is if you saw the arsonist leaving the scene. But I don't know any firefighter that would chase down the arsonist vs put out the fire.

Ok.. who pays? We already pay for LEO's out of our taxes.

Here's an idea.. did you know the RCMP are severely understaffed? Why not apply for a job? Encourage your ex-military friends to join.. Hell, even if just one joined and parked their cruiser out front, crime in the area would drop.
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  #72  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:24 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
There's really no point then, if they are only occasionally patrolling (and on call). Chances of these volunteers being able to respond faster than a LEO is pretty slim, unless it happens out front of their house or you train every person in the community.

Most of these thefts are from people that have scoped out the property, and usually know that households schedule.



They already know someone is coming (and don't know when). You keep saying 40 minutes?? Response time is a variable that is location/environment/etc dependent. That goes for these volunteers as well.

Once again.. 40 mins.. I bet by the time you get off your laptop looking at conspiracy theories, put your pants on, answer the phone, stumble into your vehicle, then drive 15kms to respond to an incident, 40mins will also have passed. oh, and that's if you were actually awake when the call came.

You sir.. Need to give your head a shake, and think about the logistics of what you are talking about.

If the appearance of authority is all you are wanting, why not create that now? Why does there have to be any training/guns/etc? You're just looking for an excuse to open carry.

If your neighbors are actually ex-military, why not create a patrol? Throw a sign on the car that is patrolling, and drive around 24/7, take turns, showing presence.

(I know that doesn't play into your agenda, but that alone would reduce your neighborhood crime)
Try 8 minutes to get into a department, and rolling within 90 seconds of getting there. Ive done that for most of my professional career while on call fairly easily. Definitely not an issue getting most places within the response area in 15 minutes or less if we have departments in every small town.

And what happens if we create a patrol and end up shooting someone at one of the neighbors? We already know these guys are armed, would you like us to just go give them hugs? Why not have more police, and get these criminals off the roads and create safer communities?

And the 40 minutes response time is a conservative estimate. They took over an hour to get here for one of the robberies, and never made it all the way on the other. A high speed chase started as the locals ganged up on the bunch and ran them into town. Cops were supposed to set up a road block, but took it down once they found out the car was doing over 150. The crew got away and went on to go hold another household at gun point later that evening.
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  #73  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:25 AM
243 wild cat 243 wild cat is offline
 
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Originally Posted by pikeman06 View Post
I live in central alberta east. People are fed up with the crime and I think it's just a matter of time till someone takes the law into their own hands. Police are basically nowhere to be seen and response times are ridiculous. I little more patrol time would definitely help. If the cops would get out at night and patrol the small towns and pull over the odd guy late at night on the highways I'm sure they would be stumble upon the odd criminal. You see them make a pass thru town at 3pm on a Sunday...never at night. I'm not sure what the logic is. Alot of people out here have given up on the police and are talking crazy about vigilante type action and I hardly blame them. Sad state of affairs.
The Police or are laws that are put there to help us as LAWFUL CITIZENS! is a joke and all this talk is why people will start to take things that happen to them and deal with it there way. Its just a matter of time and the less the people knows about it the better. The fate of the scum in this world means nothing! always has and always will we never hear about scum dying or missing never. A good point i heard about was of a body found in the bush by hunters a local scumbag drug dealer convicted of selling to kids and adults more times then we know funny how that case is closed with no news coverage all but forgotten but for local people with kids all smiles when they heard of this funny thing he was found with no clothes on -30 out that week called it suspicious lol. Its when i see or hear of a innocent person being harmed or victimized that hurts and people are sick of it! Call it what you like vigilante justice on crime works it has for decades it just hasn't been brought back or thought of for decades! And we are seeing it with all the crime wave of are time. Cracked out Scumbags know right from wrong they don,t know what punishment is and what can happen to fit the CRIME! yet but i can see it coming and the less i hear of it the better. Just the odd story like i told is good to hear lol
Stay safe!

Last edited by 243 wild cat; 10-12-2017 at 09:32 AM.
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  #74  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:48 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Why not? If I saw a house on fire, first thing, call 911, second check if there's anyone inside, whether that involves me going it or not depends on the situation. Zero training.

You're still comparing apples to oranges..

What you are talking about is if you saw the arsonist leaving the scene. But I don't know any firefighter that would chase down the arsonist vs put out the fire.

Ok.. who pays? We already pay for LEO's out of our taxes.

Here's an idea.. did you know the RCMP are severely understaffed? Why not apply for a job? Encourage your ex-military friends to join.. Hell, even if just one joined and parked their cruiser out front, crime in the area would drop.
Do you know how the funding works now? And how much 1 Leo costs? Clearly not.

And as for training with the fire department. Do you know how to put on an SCBA, do a proper search, check for hazards, know how to self rescue, how to do vehicle extrication, medical assist, and traffic? That doesn't even get into TDG, S&R, Industrial FF, what to use to put out a fire, ventilation, Pump operations, etc.... theres a lot of training to get a good firefighter. As I said you dont just join and the next day your going into a structure fire.

So just like Fire Departments there would be a lot of training for these POC Peace Officers.
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  #75  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:53 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Try 8 minutes to get into a department, and rolling within 90 seconds of getting there. Ive done that for most of my professional career while on call fairly easily. Definitely not an issue getting most places within the response area in 15 minutes or less if we have departments in every small town.
Sure.. ..
And what happens when there's two calls? Or you happen to be outside your "zone" and it takes an hour to get there. hmm sounds like the same problem the LEO's have.

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And what happens if we create a patrol and end up shooting someone at one of the neighbors? We already know these guys are armed, would you like us to just go give them hugs? Why not have more police, and get these criminals off the roads and create safer communities?
Once again.. You are not understanding the patrol... They have zero authority, zero ability to carry arms or even approach anyone. But having a presence (which is what you are suggesting is the deterrent) is enough.

Quote:
And the 40 minutes response time is a conservative estimate. They took over an hour to get here for one of the robberies, and never made it all the way on the other. A high speed chase started as the locals ganged up on the bunch and ran them into town. Cops were supposed to set up a road block, but took it down once they found out the car was doing over 150. The crew got away and went on to go hold another household at gun point later that evening.
And how would've your "volunteers" changed that? a gun fight? a high speed chase with guns ablazing? This is a clear example of how untrained civilians more than likely escalated the situation, and could've seriously injured many innocent people.

Like I said, you need to take emotion out of this, and think logically.

Being preventive is much better than a bandaide reactive solution.
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  #76  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:57 AM
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Sorry if you already answered this, but would these volunteer deputies of yours be armed and authorized to use deadly force?
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  #77  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:00 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Do you know how the funding works now? And how much 1 Leo costs? Clearly not.
Actually.. I do. It helps to have 5 LEO's in the family.. And trust me, you have NO idea what it actually costs, and how underpaid they are.

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And as for training with the fire department. Do you know how to put on an SCBA, do a proper search, check for hazards, know how to self rescue, how to do vehicle extrication, medical assist, and traffic? That doesn't even get into TDG, S&R, Industrial FF, what to use to put out a fire, ventilation, Pump operations, etc.... theres a lot of training to get a good firefighter. As I said you dont just join and the next day your going into a structure fire.
I guess that was over your head.. Anyways.. You're clear with your agenda.. Continue on.
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  #78  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:02 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Sure.. ..
And what happens when there's two calls? Or you happen to be outside your "zone" and it takes an hour to get there. hmm sounds like the same problem the LEO's have.



Once again.. You are not understanding the patrol... They have zero authority, zero ability to carry arms or even approach anyone. But having a presence (which is what you are suggesting is the deterrent) is enough.



And how would've your "volunteers" changed that? a gun fight? a high speed chase with guns ablazing? This is a clear example of how untrained civilians more than likely escalated the situation, and could've seriously injured many innocent people.

Like I said, you need to take emotion out of this, and think logically.

Being preventive is much better than a bandaide reactive solution.
You keep saying untrained, its like your purposely missing the point. These people would be trained quite well!

And how would the situation have turned out different? 6 officers could have pulled up on scene surrounded the suspects and arrested them within 15 minutes. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later. Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood. See if your patrol idea will work on crackheads that dont think logically.

Also you seem to be miss the point that EVERY small town in Alberta would have a department. Meaning the response zones would be fairly small for quick response times. Thats the whole point of making it POC, so most municipalities could afford to staff departments.
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  #79  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:02 AM
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So on one hand cops paid to do what cops do and on the other volunteer wannabes with less training, doing the cops job for free?

What could possibly go wrong?

castle law and CCW would certainly increase the size of the volunteer force
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:04 AM
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So on one hand cops paid to do what cops do and on the other volunteer wannabes with less training, doing the cops job for free?

What could possibly go wrong?

castle law and CCW would certainly increase the size of the volunteer force
Cant have CCW in Canada. We dont need it according to city folk!
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  #81  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:18 AM
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Cant have CCW in Canada. We dont need it according to city folk!
Or rural folk. I've lived in the country or a very small town my whole life.

Honestly the only people I know that ever bring it up are the same guys that shoot absolutely ever living thing that crosses their path they can get away with. I shudder to think what they'd be like walking around with a gun in their pocket.

I'm sure most here are way more responsible. But those people are out there.
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  #82  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:19 AM
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Cant have CCW in Canada. We dont need it according to city folk!
I thing you are wrong about that CCW. A lot of gangstas, ghetto goblins, drug gang members CCW. It is so common not much is said about it.
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  #83  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:23 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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You keep saying untrained, its like your purposely missing the point. These people would be trained quite well!

And how would the situation have turned out different? 6 officers could have pulled up on scene surrounded the suspects and arrested them within 15 minutes. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later. Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood. See if your patrol idea will work on crackheads that dont think logically.

Also you seem to be miss the point that EVERY small town in Alberta would have a department. Meaning the response zones would be fairly small for quick response times. Thats the whole point of making it POC, so most municipalities could afford to staff departments.
So if we are spending the time and money to train them why not have actual police? Push for a provincial police force.

So what do they do if they take hostages? You seem to think that just because some neighbor shows up with a semi auto all is well. What if the bad guys have them too?

Does your training involve hostage situations and crowd control?

Start a neighbourhood watch. They work. It takes a presence. .... basically your plan without the years of training and no guns.
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  #84  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:27 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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You keep saying untrained, its like your purposely missing the point. These people would be trained quite well!
Yep.. because they are.. The amount of training they would have to take yearly would basically force them to be in courses almost every night on their own time, between family, work, etc.

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Originally Posted by raab View Post
And how would the situation have turned out different? 6 officers could have pulled up on scene surrounded the suspects and arrested them within 15 minutes. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later.
lol.. So if the crackhead pulled the gun on the owners, you don't think they would shoot either the homeowner or the volunteers?

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Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood.
Funny thing.. They used to be, . Guess what, all our neighbors were sick of it, so they started to lock their **** up, and taking away the easy pickens.. Guess what? Crime has gone down in our neighborhood. Amazing what happens when some common sense gets applied. Oh, and don't think it's just simple crimes, we've had high speed chases/shootings/etc.

Quote:
Also you seem to be miss the point that EVERY small town in Alberta would have a department. Meaning the response zones would be fairly small for quick response times. Thats the whole point of making it POC, so most municipalities could afford to staff departments.
Bahaha.. You clearly don't understand the logistics/economics of running a "police department".. Why do you think there isn't an RCMP detachment in every town?
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  #85  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:28 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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So if we are spending the time and money to train them why not have actual police? Push for a provincial police force.
Because he wants to carry guns and have to ability to use them at any time he feels fit..
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  #86  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:30 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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Because he wants to carry guns and have to ability to use them at any time he feels fit..
Oh I'm well aware
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:30 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Start a neighbourhood watch. They work. It takes a presence. .... basically your plan without the years of training and no guns.
Works very well..
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:33 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Location: Central Alberta
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So if we are spending the time and money to train them why not have actual police? Push for a provincial police force.

So what do they do if they take hostages? You seem to think that just because some neighbor shows up with a semi auto all is well. What if the bad guys have them too?

Does your training involve hostage situations and crowd control?

Start a neighbourhood watch. They work. It takes a presence. .... basically your plan without the years of training and no guns.
They really dont work. Several people have been spotted and nothing has been done about it.

If theres a hostage situation you would have a protocol to follow in that event. Just like there would be protocols to follow for most events you'd be called for.

And the cost of training 1 fulltime LEO is to much for most communities. Let alone training a department full. POC Peace Officers would be a far more cost effective solution and ensure adequate staffing across the province.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:48 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Works very well..
Says the guy with 2200 officers within 40 minutes of his place.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:51 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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They really dont work. Several people have been spotted and nothing has been done about it.

If theres a hostage situation you would have a protocol to follow in that event. Just like there would be protocols to follow for most events you'd be called for.

And the cost of training 1 fulltime LEO is to much for most communities. Let alone training a department full. POC Peace Officers would be a far more cost effective solution and ensure adequate staffing across the province.
Oh so you're not really training them then? Just like a weekend camp or what? Sort of a this is what a bad guy looks like here's your gun and badge routine?

.... sounds like that's gonna work out

If they're done right they do work. Do you have a neighbourhood watch program? Or just a neighbor that saw someone? Because those are 2 different things.
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