Changes coming for sheep hunting in 2011?

[ishootbambi]

well, i agree that a lot of the problems that some individuals see as a problem dont resonate as a problem for everyone. for me, i say that there are so few mature rams in hunutable areas in this province, and so many hunters in those areas that a quality sheep hunt just isnt possible. some will disagree, but heres one that clearly is a problem. the fact that some draws have a priority sytem in place that ensures that anyone who starts applying for those draws now, or any time in the future will never live long enough to see the day they finally do draw a tag. that needs to be fixed. i find it tough to look at my son and say "sorry boy, you had the misfortune of being born too late so you can never dream of drawing that tag." there have been several solutions offered.....IMO some of them make more sense than others.

[sheepguide]

I for one am not super concerned on ram populations. Like others until them numbers are documented as a problem then im not worried. I see decent ram numbers in many places but not many mature rams. So as far as the rams go I feel it is possible to have more huntable sheep population. I dont think that a 205 or 30% success( or what ever the resident success is) is very good numbers.

I know many say there isnt an issue, but I personaly feel that there is a problem. Not with rams but populations in general in many zones. I travel sheep counrty more than most and there has been a huge decrease in sheep numbers on traditionl winter grounds. Areas such as the Hummingbird, Forty Mile mountain, Ya Ha Tinda, Burnt Timber to name a few are seeing alot lower numbers. And no it isnt documented but is the opinion of many local people that have seen the numbers in these areas for many of years.

And like TJ stated predator control is probably not going to happen any time soon but until then the managment of hunters just because its easier is a joke and in reality probably isnt gunna improve much. Managment shouldnt be about what is easiest but should be about what will improve things.
SG

[209x50]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Seven mature rams.

Sorry that I can't provide any info. to back that number.



Hopefully the proposed Cougar hunting changes will come into effect this fall. Allowing some cougar hunting during the fall won't increase cougar populations, and it might help take out a few of the specialized sheep killers.


I can back up Huntnut's comment. I spoke with our F&W Head of Big Game, and I was told that there was NO concern with the number of mature rams. I was also told of three other regulation changes that there were under consideration. Two out of three aren't bad.

1) Put all Trophy sheep draws on the same draw code, with a priority cap.

2) to put WMU 438 completely on draw, presumably to open up the mine to hunting and deal with the overpopulation concern.

3) Willmore may also go on to a draw. NOT for conservation reasons.


As I said earlier in this thread, something stinks with our Sheep management.
A personal agenda?

OK, I got to ask - Who? Who has the presonal agenda?

[crazyfish]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I travel sheep counrty more than most and there has been a huge decrease in sheep numbers on traditionl winter grounds. Areas such as the Hummingbird, Forty Mile mountain, Ya Ha Tinda, Burnt Timber to name a few are seeing alot lower numbers. And no it isnt documented but is the opinion of many local people that have seen the numbers in these areas for many of years. SG

if the overall numbers province wide are fairly similar to the 60's , 80's etc, then they are somewhere, or the counts are way off. Is it possible that the sheep are adapting in a different way ??? if the predation problem becomes localized on the wintering areas, are they spending more time in less traditional areas to avoid this ?

[ram crazy]

[QUOTE=ishootbambi;788367]it seems that most hunters dont think there even is a problem. most just want to hunt every year for any legal sheep. if thats the case then it would seem change is unneccessary.....except for the draw process as it stands. the way it was originally set up was severely flawed and absolutely needs to be fixed. guys like me seem to be in the minority. i only ask for a little bit of change to satisfy my wishes, but im a democratic kinda guy....if the majority says no effin way then i guess im stuck holding out hope for a tag in montana.


Bambi please tell me what the problem is with Sheep hunting the way it is right now, as you seem to think there is a problem. In the last two years there have been 4 book rams shot south of the highway that I have herd of and maybe there has been more I don't know!!!

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Ram Crazy,

I've posted sheep numbers and links to the information source in this thread Twice. There were 12% more sheep in 2008 than in 1989.

I would respond to your other comments, but I don't understand your math.

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From looking at the limited public data, I get the impression that IF there are fewer Mature rams in the population than 10 and/or 20 years ago, "something" other than licenced hunting is causing this mortality.

Since the overall population is doing well, then this "something" cause of mortality is focusing on Mature rams. It's unlikely a disease issue. Habitat would effect the whole population, so that's not it. This leaves depredation; predators (wolves, cougars, bears), and humans (poachers, sustinence harvest, illegal licenced kills; reported and unreported).

Individual cougars are known to be prey specific specialists. Are they the problem? Wolves and bears, are they the problem relating to a possible focused Ram mortality? IMO, it is likely that wolves and cougars are a increasing source of predation.

In my mind, IF there is an concern with Ram mortality, the greatest source is most likely human related. Legal licenced hunting seems to be in line with the overall population trend. Poachers, sustinence harvest, illegal licenced hunter kills, these are the issues SRD should be dealing with.

Without looking after the root cause of a problem, any other management medicine is a placebo.

Sorry WB is couldn't find the numbers I was just guessing, but if there were more sheep in 08' than in 89' that would be your cause for the increase in hunter success. So even with the Lungworm Die-off in the 80's they were still killing more Rams in the 80's, so once again where is the problem with sheep hunting the way it is right now other than the fact that it seems the the same people are doing most of the killing. The government says that a mature Rams is one that makes 4/5 or full curl depending on the zone, and some biologist says a mature Ram is 8 yrs. old, so we are going with what a biologist says. If the biologist says a Ram is mature at 6yrs. old everybody would still believe him as well then!!! So why did the government tell people that it is ok to kill 4/5 or full curl Rams.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by crazyfish

if the overall numbers province wide are fairly similar to the 60's , 80's etc, then they are somewhere, or the counts are way off. Is it possible that the sheep are adapting in a different way ??? if the predation problem becomes localized on the wintering areas, are they spending more time in less traditional areas to avoid this ?

Its possible for sure but there in lies the issues. If predators are pushing the sheep off of winter pasture then is this putting added pressure on the rest of the sheep forage? Is it contributing to any other issues? Id like to say that the sheep are just in other areas but it sure doesnt seem to be the case from what I see(and I hope im wrong). Lots of what ifs for sure. Some concrete numbers would sure be nice so these threads wouldnt be just opinion bashing sessions.
SG

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by The Sheep Reaper
There will be a few minor changes for sheep this year.

See below.

Big Horn Sheep

• Suspend bighorn sheep season in WMUs 429 and 328 for a period of a minimum of four years. Review population estimates and dynamics at the end of 2014 and re assess the proposed strategy for 2015. Traditionally, WMU 328 and 429 have been managed under identical regulations because the sheep belong to the same population (they are considered two metapopulations)

Objective: To support the conservation and long-term research project ongoing at Ram Mountain. This closure will allow for transplanted sheep to reach maturity prior to being harvested.

• Initiate a long-term closure of the sheep season in WMU 326 due to the small resident sheep population. Recent population estimates and the low harvest indicate a declining population of sheep in this WMU.

Objective: Closure of the sheep season to maintain a resident sheep population in WMU 326.

Sheep notes – There is going to be a review of sheep harvest data back to 1975 and current population data. One draw code for trophy sheep and capping priorities at 10 (just for sheep) being considered. Extending wait times under review. WMU 438 will see an increase to 5 tags from three in each of the 3 draws (2011).


lions and wolves are the biggest problem in these areas. wolves pursuing above treeline,lions pursuing below. there's no money in managing wolves and lions,just hunters. the amount of wolf sign near the wintering grounds to the west has taken a dramatic change since the early 90's. just cant see how they can compete with hunters,wolves,lions and sustain their populations.

maintain a resident sheep population in 326 that is laughable,maintain a buffet is all it is lol.

[ram crazy]

SRD also said that they will only be doing changes every two years instead of every year!!!!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

SRD also said that they will only be doing changes every two years instead of every year!!!!

That's not correct.

SRD stated that outside of urgent conservation concerns, regulation changes are to be on a 2 year alternating cycle; one year for minor changes, the next year for major changes.

[ram crazy]

Thats not what was said at Willow Valley trophy day!!! The speaker that spoke on the subject said every two years.

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Thats not what was said at Willow Valley trophy day!!! The speaker that spoke on the subject said every two years.

Who was this speaker?
I too have been told what WB said.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

SRD stated that outside of urgent conservation concerns, regulation changes are to be on a 2 year alternating cycle; one year for minor changes, the next year for major changes.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

A draw for sheep will not guarantee more mature Rams.

Limiting licenced harvest may be negatively countered by unregulated sustinence hunting, high predator depredation, and degrated sheep habitat.


Predator and habitat managment are specified priorities in the Alberta Sheep Management Plan. The Gov needs to step up to the plate and get back to the basics.


Licenced harvest can be manipulated through techniques other than a draw system. For example, zones can be put on a full curl restriction for a few years to limit harvest without limiting hunter opportunity. This is a simpler regulation route, with a simple path to return to a 4/5ths requirement when the ram age structure allows it.

Of course this should only be implemented after SRD PROVES there are conservation concerns.

I agree. Predator control and Habitat management should be taken more seriously by SRD. But that is not the only area that SRD can improve upon. It seems that their fixation on hunter control trumps all other considerations.

A good example is my experience in WMU 446 when the mine was shut down. The area was a Full Curl Zone for the three years that we when up there hunting. The reclaimed areas around the shop had very good growth of alfalfa but it was eaten nearly down to the roots. It was awesome to walk among the resident herd of 50 - 75 rams that flocked together like sheep in a pen. Problem was that while there were many old rams, with awesome bases, there was not a legal ram amongst them. They were either so severely broomed off or swept back that they would never be legal.

Another thought that crossed my mind was, "how many of these rams are going to die of disease or starvation before they die of old age". Our observations that there was probably only one or two legal rams in the whole WMU was backed up by what the F&W officers were saying. It really amazed me when these same officers began piling old haul truck tires on the haul roads, blocking access, especially to the area where the one legal ram was. That didn't stop us but someone beat us to the legal ram as he was near the road on the other side of the mountain from where we were camped. Our plan was to walk up and over the mountain in hopes of finding him away from the road.

After three years of hunting we had figured out how to go about hunting three, "wild", rams the next year. Imagine how ****ed of we were the next year to find that SRD, in their wisdom, had decided to put 446 on a draw included in with another zone that had been on draw for a number of years. To add insult to injury that Draw Code not only made it possible that we would never get drawn, due to the priority of those coming in with the other zone, but the Full Curl rule was dropped. I was not able to enter the draw as I had been in the WMU 437 since the first year and had no intention of dropping out but my buddy could have entered. Only problem is that he would probably not have lived long enough to get drawn.

I did get drawn in 437, priority 12, but was unable to get my ram as my legs had given out on me. It really amused me to see that some people, in even priority one, were putting down three dollars to get in on the WMU437 and putting 999 on their application. The government must really like people that give them money with no chance of ever getting drawn in their lifetime. THE ONLY WAY IT WOULD BE FAIR TO IMPLEMENT A PROVINCE WIDE DRAW SYSTEM WOULD BE TO DROP THE PRIORITY SYSTEM. IF THE PRIORITY SYSTEM IS IMPLEMENTED, AS IT WAS IN WMU 446 OUR SONS WILL NEVER GET A CHANCE TO DRAW FOR A SHEEP, WHILE THEY ARE STILL ABLE TO HUNT ONE, EVEN IF THEY ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO AFFORD IT.

As for the Non-Resident/ Alien hunters they should have to put their names in for a draw along with the resident hunters. I talked to my buddy in Montana and they are looking at this with all non resident hunting opportunities. Although I don't have all of the information it appears that the people of Montana are tired of the increasing control that the Outfitters are getting over the hunting in the state.