Changes coming for sheep hunting in 2011?

[alpineguy]

I think closing areas that are in trouble is a necessity.
I think draw caps are a joke. If your not prepared to wait the time required (dictated by amount of applicants and number of rams available) then don't hunt there. Our priority system is great. It allows you to plan a couple of years ahead for a hunt (I started planning my 2010 Wilmore hunt 10 months ahead)and is as fair a system as could ever be put in place.
I also think restrictions on non-resident tags are essential to sheep management in our province. I'm not knocking the outfitting industry, but we as Alberta tax payers should have the lion's share of sheep hunting opportunities, not some deep pocketed Americans or Europeans.
Industries change with the times (I have operated 3 totally different businesses in my life, chasing the almighty buck) and it may be that the sheep guiding industry is winding down in our province based solely on sheep numbers and resident hunter numbers.
Motorized vehicle restrictions should happen only if there is an environemental issue. I hunt mainly with horses but many hunters do not have this luxury and need another way to transport game. The ability to transport harvested game quickly can be essential to it not spoiling. I do however love the areas that presently have no motorized vehicles and would like them to remain that way.
Just My 2 Cents!

[Wolf Medicine]

#1. The first major concern with this is.. Who is being considered for inclusion in the input meetings??? Do any of these individuals represent A group of sheep hunters??? Are any of the supposed representative organizations FNAWS? SCI? etc, been invited to these meetings??? And if so are they sharing any of these concerns with their membership???
#2. Wildlife management by public opinion. Or by politics driven studies is never effective.. See Grizzly Management in Alberta..
#3. If they are doing changes by solid game counts specific to the subject area and herd. Then it is always worrisome when hunting opportunities are reduced but when it is necessary then it should be supported by sportsmen. For the good of the animals we pursue.
#4. Personally alot of the sheep zones would benefit from having greater access restrictions. Ie, no quads/snowmobiles.

[Hooter]

Originally Posted by wolfkilr

Anyone interested in the future of sheep hunting should view Anne's presentation!!

Hi wolfkilr, Do you have a copy of Anne's presentation or know where I can find a copy online?

Thanks.

-Trevor

[bowshot]

209x50, just contact F&W in Rocky, they have the harvest stats for every WMU in the province for as long as they have been keeping records. The records are as accurate as the hunters reporting them.

Terry

[duffy4]

I recon I am going to go out to Ram Mountain several times this winter and do some "predator calling" in the next few weeks. With a cougar licence in my pocket.

If I kill some coyotes, ok. If I kill a wolf, great. If I kill a cougar, good for the sheep and me.

Pictures to follow.

[steve]

Originally Posted by duffy4

I recon I am going to go out to Ram Mountain several times this winter and do some "predator calling" in the next few weeks. With a cougar licence in my pocket.

If I kill some coyotes, ok. If I kill a wolf, great. If I kill a cougar, good for the sheep and me.

Pictures to follow.

For the cats, better be able to identify sex on the ground.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Hooter

Hi wolfkilr, Do you have a copy of Anne's presentation or know where I can find a copy online?

Thanks.

-Trevor

I think if you want to hear what the lady has to say,you need to phone Rocky Sustainable resources and find where she is speaking. It's a two way process and the questions asked, are as important as her answers. What I gather is that they are very open minded, at this point and are looking for input. She did mention a couple of groups they have talked to, including the Wild Sheep foundation.

Grizz

[ovis40]

Objective: To support the conservation and long-term research project ongoing at Ram Mountain. This closure will allow for transplanted sheep to reach maturity prior to being harvested.

I think this should read....To support the long-term meal ticket for the Bio's.
And what does the last part mean? When a ram has reached full curl then they will open the season so he can be harvested. Would that be a draw or a general tag Gong Show??

[walking buffalo]

Are these sheep being studied to death? Ram Mountain and Sheep River populations have both crashed.

A good question for the bio's is to ask for the yearly total mortality on study animals due to capture and handling since these study areas have been operated. You may be surprised how many animals ARE studied to death.

A page dedicated to Caw Ridge, Ram Mountain and Sheep River study areas.

If you go to "Publications", cut and paste into google the individual studies, and you may find them in a complete form.


http://mouflons.pvp.ca/index.htm

[Rockymtnx]

WB, just curious as to what the cause of death is on the over handling of the sheep?

[walking buffalo]

Rocky,

Physical injuries caused during capture, whether from darts, drugs, nets, or corrals.

Overdose of, or reaction to tranquilzer, or antidote.

Stress related conditions; heart attacks, overheating...

Some animals die several days after capture, despite no outward signs of difficulty when released.

As I mentioned earlier, a 10% mortality rate of captured ungulates is common, sometimes the % is much higher. Considering every one of these sheep at Ram Mountain are handled at least yearly, and are in different contraptions monthly, I suspect the "Study caused" motality is quite high. Perhaps the single largest mortality factor in the herd.

I found a dead tagged 4 year old ewe last October upstream of the Sheep River Sanctuary. She had died within the last day, barely bloated, no scavaging. She was on a gentle scree slope, no signs of injury. The only mark on her was where her leg was very recently shaved and a large needle puncture was still fresh, no scab. I'm 99% sure her death was capture related. If I didn't find her and call it in, her missing stature would have been recorded as an unknown cause; migrated, predatory kill. I'll keep my eye out to see how the researchers at the sanctuary recorded her death.


One of these days I'll look at the OP.

[wolfkilr]

[QUOTE=Hooter;775143]Hi wolfkilr, Do you have a copy of Anne's presentation or know where I can find a copy online?

Thanks.

-Trevor[/QUOTE]

I don't have a copy and I doubt she would send you a copy of her slides with the stats on but if you don't ask you won't receive. It looks like most of the AFGA locals hold these input meetings so get in touch with the closest one to you and see or phone ASRD and they willl know.

[decker]

I didn't realize they were still doing research on Ram mountain, last time I was up there was like te years ago and the facilities were pretty run down and the corrals wouldn't be able to hold anything in.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Are these sheep being studied to death? Ram Mountain and Sheep River populations have both crashed.

A good question for the bio's is to ask for the yearly total mortality on study animals due to capture and handling since these study areas have been operated. You may be surprised how many animals ARE studied to death.

A page dedicated to Caw Ridge, Ram Mountain and Sheep River study areas.

If you go to "Publications", cut and paste into google the individual studies, and you may find them in a complete form.


http://mouflons.pvp.ca/index.htm

You've got to wonder if that population would exist at all, given it's isolated occurrence, if it wasn't the object of a study and yes, the study is still ongoing. Even have a cabin for the biologist types there. I would say they have become very comfortable there, but it may have outlived it's usefulness. Used to be a whole website, devoted to Ram Mountain, but have been unable to find it. Here's a summary.

http://albertawilderness.ca/issues/w..._download/file

There are 6 rams, across the valley, a couple close to 4/5. One of the claims made has been that very few rams actually grow to full curl here.



Grizz

[Black Sheep]

Limits on the number of rams a person can shoot in a lifetime is crazy. If you can still hike those steep beautiful mountain slopes that are home of the majestic bighorn sheep you should be able to.I know the /Sheephunter/ would agree. I would like to see sheep go to a draw. Mule deer is a great example it works, bigger bucks. More and bigger sheep is what all sheep hunters should like to see.

[ishootbambi]

im actually a proponent of more sheep draws.....but you have to remember how few of them there are out there. i think the best option is to put the south part of the province on draw....thats where genetics are best and the least sheep live. it would create a better hunt for those drawn, while leaving the north open the way it is for those who like running around the mountains chasing squeakers. although id like to see more rams live to maturity, its nice to be able to just buy a tag and go sheep hunting. my way is to compromise so everyone has a chance at what they want.

[walking buffalo]

Might as well address the OP...

Originally Posted by The Sheep Reaper
There will be a few minor changes for sheep this year.

See below.

Big Horn Sheep

• Suspend bighorn sheep season in WMUs 429 and 328 for a period of a minimum of four years. Review population estimates and dynamics at the end of 2014 and re assess the proposed strategy for 2015. Traditionally, WMU 328 and 429 have been managed under identical regulations because the sheep belong to the same population (they are considered two metapopulations)

Objective: To support the conservation and long-term research project ongoing at Ram Mountain. This closure will allow for transplanted sheep to reach maturity prior to being harvested.

The issue at Ram Mountain seems to be that the scientists now want to study this herd in an unhunted state. It would be another Sheep River Sanctuary scenario. Licenced hunting at Ram MOuntain isn't a conservation issue, but it's getting in the way of a Thesis.

• Initiate a long-term closure of the sheep season in WMU 326 due to the small resident sheep population. Recent population estimates and the low harvest indicate a declining population of sheep in this WMU.

Objective: Closure of the sheep season to maintain a resident sheep population in WMU 326.

Won't argue against a true conservation concern.

Sheep notes – There is going to be a review of sheep harvest data back to 1975 and current population data. One draw code for trophy sheep and capping priorities at 10 (just for sheep) being considered.
SOmething needs to be done with the draw system, it is severely flawed.

Extending wait times under review. WMU 438 will see an increase to 5 tags from three in each of the 3 draws (2011).

Definately no conservation issue here with about 2000 sheep. IMO, more tags and more seasons.

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

It's late and I just got back from a meeting with Annne Hubbs. Pretty depressing and some radical changes are going to have to be made. Just what they are has yet to be decided. They are looking for input. Some little tidbits. In 2000, 12 rams were re-located to Ram Mountain. 5 remain. That WMU grows one legal ram, per year. If it is closed, chances are slim it will re-open on the present basis. Permanent closure of WMU 326. There are less than 50 sheep left in that WMU. Elimination of ewe tags being considered. Sustainable Resources strives to maintain a 5% legal ram cohort, province wide. We are down to 2%. Grizz

Without seeing her data, I'm winging it here, but I have my concerns with the direction of concern.

Just dealing with the bolded part of your quote.

Ewe harvest has been conclusively proven to increase herd reproductivity and vigor. Why would Anne suggest we need to eliminate ewe hunting when populations are NOT decreasing?


I don't buy the 2% mature Ram claim, at least not province wide. The province has not been willing to fund sufficient aerial surveys of sheep in recent years. Some areas have not been surveyed for three years.

Winter surveys of sheep is HARD! Consider stormy weather with very dangerous flying conditions, looking for widely dispersed animals in big country. Accurate animal classification and population estimates are difficult to obtain in many areas.

Look at the Sheep survey (Clearwater area) report from 08/09.

- Total sheep count, 1492.

Over 156 (10%) of the sheep were found in unidentified winter range. One known winter range was not surveyed. How many sheep were not surveyed?

Of 1492 observed sheep, 281 (19%) were not identified and/or classified. Many of these could be Legal Rams.

Over 245 (16%) of these sheep were unclassified as to their sex/age.

Of 156 rams identified, 36 (12%) were not classified.


Pg. 23 http://www.ab-conservation.com/go/ta...vey_Season.pdf

Results
We observed 1,491 sheep on 14 winter ranges (Table 5). No sheep were observed on two winter ranges. Some observations of sheep were outside the known winter ranges (n = 8 groups totaling 156 sheep), particularly in WMUs 414, 420 and 426, suggesting that winter ranges should be re‐adjusted over time. The population structure identified during the survey on known winter ranges was 732 ewes, 175 lambs, 339 rams and 245 unclassified sheep. Rams were classified as 107 ¼ curl, 131 ½ curl, 41 ¾ curl, 15 ⅘ curl, 9 full curl and 36 unclassified males. The herd composition was 23.9 lambs/100 ewes and 46.3 rams/100 ewes, with 1.6% of the total sheep that were classified as ⅘ or full curl. Results from this survey are similar to the results from previous surveys: in 2005 a total of 1,482 sheep were counted and the composition was 45 rams/100 ewes/32 lambs. In 2007, a total of 1,072 animals were counted and the ratio was 36 rams/100 ewes/30 lambs.
23

Did Anne bring up Predator control as a measure to pretect sheep populations? That would be a better place to start than further limiting humans from hunting sheep.

Was Treaty harvest brought up? If these animals do require further protection to maintain mature rams, then the province can invoke measures within the Alberta Treaties to restrict native harvest for conservation measures.

[steve]

The formula AB uses in determining the amount of ewe tags to be available.

Number of permits non trophy permits=


Harvest rate (%) * (winter ewe + yearling population)
Hunter success rate (%) for sheep in that management area

Harvest rate will not exceed 18% unless a herd reduction is needed. Hunter success rate is the average of 5 preceding years.

[pika]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

im actually a proponent of more sheep draws.....but you have to remember how few of them there are out there. i think the best option is to put the south part of the province on draw....thats where genetics are best and the least sheep live. it would create a better hunt for those drawn, while leaving the north open the way it is for those who like running around the mountains chasing squeakers. although id like to see more rams live to maturity, its nice to be able to just buy a tag and go sheep hunting. my way is to compromise so everyone has a chance at what they want.

Current discussions with SRD are involving getting sheep on draw South of the Bow especially if the age horn size correlation study corelates with reduced trophy quality from non-residents hammering rams out of the same population year after year north of the Bow. A draw in the South will allow transfer of some of the Non Resident allocations North of the Bow to areas South of the Bow (which currently do not allow non-resident sheep outfitting). The province will not have to pay market value of the allocations to the outfitter to reduce harvest levels and the outfitter will be able to make a living with sheep guiding opportunities South of the Bow and in many cases closer to their own residences!!!.

There are lots of good guiding opportunities to be found South of the Bow and many big rams are taken but first we need to limit the resident hunters to a once in a life time draw opportunity. Any draw implemented will ensure this if priority system is used for the draws due to high demand for such a tag, just look at 437 and 408 draws if you didn't apply the first year you'll never be drawn. The best thing about a draw is very few resident hunters in the 40 plus crowd will ever be able to obtain the draw which will make some good sheep hunting for us in the younger generations once we get the tag.

Lets face it resident hunters don't pay enough for sheep hunting but non-residents do. Maybe its time to create better opportunities for the sheep guides and for sheep in general as there is a great opportunity here for sheep guides in the South, just means residents will have to take a back seat, hey it works on private land!!

[walking buffalo]

Sounds great Pika!


A draw system be awsome! Instead of going out and hunting sheep every year, a resident could wait for a "once in a lifetime draw tag" and have their pick of a good ram.




Instead of debating "hunter" management, let's get SRD to put the focus back on sheep managment, which includes predator control and habitat enhancement.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

im actually a proponent of more sheep draws.....but you have to remember how few of them there are out there. i think the best option is to put the south part of the province on draw....thats where genetics are best and the least sheep live. it would create a better hunt for those drawn, while leaving the north open the way it is for those who like running around the mountains chasing squeakers. although id like to see more rams live to maturity, its nice to be able to just buy a tag and go sheep hunting. my way is to compromise so everyone has a chance at what they want.

Could you tell me whet the problem is with the sheep herd south of the Bow to have this whole area on draw???

[steve]

Do we know what SRD is managing towards? What are their goals?

Is it population size for certainn WMU's?
Is it a certain success rate?
More over the counter oppurtunity or less?
More draw areas to increase trophy quality, more rams reaching maturity, a higher success rate?

What factors influence a general area to go to a draw system? Or to be closed all together?

[Black Sheep]

Pika it sounds to me like your a guide. why should a resident have to pay more? When sheep live in our provinces. Hunting is not just for rich people but for all people. Residents shouldn't have to pay thousands for a do it your self sheep hunt.
A once in a life time sheep tag ya for 438. A draw for others where it might take 3-4 years would be great. Less hunters at 1 time, more sheep sightings, more rams to look over and a chance to shot a ram of your dreams.

[mad mountain mike]

Originally Posted by pika

The best thing about a draw is very few resident hunters in the 40 plus crowd will ever be able to obtain the draw which will make some good sheep hunting for us in the younger generations once we get the tag.

Lets face it resident hunters don't pay enough for sheep hunting but non-residents do. Maybe its time to create better opportunities for the sheep guides and for sheep in general as there is a great opportunity here for sheep guides in the South, just means residents will have to take a back seat, hey it works on private land!!

good grief, good thing outfitters are not making the rules in this province. I guy my age would be lucky to get a tag to hunt gophers.lol.

[59whiskers]

We have a system in place that that entitles some to hunt trophy sheep year round in this province any time of the year. Now we have others that think that the majority of residents need to take a back seat to nonresidents and the outfitting industry. There is a need to have a level playing field for all hunting in Alberta where the rules and draw system are the same for every human being. If hunting opportunities continue to be lost for the majority then it may be time to turn the whole place over to Alberta Parks or Parks Canada, especially in the mountains, this will put a end to this power struggle once and for all.

[walking buffalo]

Black Sheep,

Pika's post = sarcasm, laced with the truth.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by steve

Do we know what SRD is managing towards? What are their goals?

Is it population size for certainn WMU's?
Is it a certain success rate?
More over the counter oppurtunity or less?
More draw areas to increase trophy quality, more rams reaching maturity, a higher success rate?

What factors influence a general area to go to a draw system? Or to be closed all together?

There is an Alberta Sheep Management Plan (google that and you'll find a copy) but it seems that it has lost favor. It did set out goals and is very fluid with management of the herd depending on populations and harvest rates. The problem to me is that SRD higher ups are not following it and are again abandoning their responsibilties.

There has been a lot of talk of outside influences pushing agendas and PIKA's response would suggest that as well.

SRD has to start becoming a ministry that takes its responsibilites seriosly and some how gets govt. money to fund what is required for wildlife management and enforcement.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by pika

Lets face it resident hunters don't pay enough for sheep hunting but non-residents do. Maybe its time to create better opportunities for the sheep guides and for sheep in general as there is a great opportunity here for sheep guides in the South, just means residents will have to take a back seat, hey it works on private land!!

Putting all non-residents on a draw system is the first step, and make that a once in a lifetime opportunity. Cutting back on outfitting allocations is another long-overdue change, as has been shown, the significant majority of the success rate on sheep in Alberta goes to guided non-residents. Data has shown resident harvests form a minor contribution to the sheep harvest in Alberta. The best thing about a draw for non-residents and reduced allocations is very few non-residents will ever be able to obtain the draw which should improve sheep hunting opportunity for us residents.

What is there to gain by putting NR on draw. If there are say 50 tags allocated for non residents, who cares who gets them?

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

What is there to gain by putting NR on draw. If there are say 50 tags allocated for non residents, who cares who gets them?

Similar to many (if not all?) US states, putting non-resident sheep tags on draw would be done in conjunction with reducing or eliminating outfitter allocations and therefore, the monopoly that select outfitters currently hold in Alberta. Let the NR draw by unit, and allow them to select an outfitter/guide, whichever is most suited to the NR hunter, not the other way around. This would allow average Joe NR to hunt sheep here, and remove the highest bidder/seller (read:$$) from equation/politics of sheep management in Alberta.