Changes coming for sheep hunting in 2011?

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by steve

I consider it a guy who has the rams "figured out" in his area. What he does when he finds a legal one with a tag in his pocket is his own business.

And others might not, if he's pounding a just legal ram every time he has a tag in his pocket.

[doubleh]

punishing? how about losing the right to hunt sheep on a general tag? that is where the sheep 'management' boat is headed.

doubleh....I keep hearing about this huge problem with guys shooting multiple sheep but despite several requests to SRD, no one has been able to provide any data to support it. Sure a few guys kill rams every couple years but is it enough to make a difference to the overall sheep population? My gut says no and until someone can prove something to the contrary, I'll stick with my gut. I've killed three rams in 25 years of hunting them. I've pretty well given up waterfowl and archery hunting to hunting sheep as much as I do. I work hard for them as do many other dedicated sheep hunters....so what if I kill 4 or 5 in a lifetime? If others want to work as hard at it as I do, I say you earned your sheep. Taking away hunter opportunity should be the last desperate measure for game managers when managing populations, yet so many think it should be the first.

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by steve

I consider it a guy who has the rams "figured out" in his area. What he does when he finds a legal one with a tag in his pocket is his own business.

X2

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

doubleh....I keep hearing about this huge problem with guys shooting multiple sheep but despite several requests to SRD, no one has been able to provide any data to support it. Sure a few guys kill rams every couple years but is it enough to make a difference to the overall sheep population? My gut says no and until someone can prove something to the contrary, I'll stick with my gut. I've killed three rams in 25 years of hunting them. I've pretty well given up waterfowl and archery hunting to hunting sheep as much as I do. I work hard for them as do many other dedicated sheep hunters....so what if I kill 4 or 5 in a lifetime? If others want to work as hard at it as I do, I say you earned your sheep. Taking away hunter opportunity should be the last desperate measure for game managers when managing populations, yet so many think it should be the first.

I couldn't agree with you more, Mr. Sheephunter.

[doubleh]

sh, you may be right and i agree (it was only a suggestion), without data, it may not be the answer but neither is mgmt by gut feeling (and you are basing your gut feeling on your own experience). if you've hunted 25 years and only shot 3 sheep, there shouldn't be a problem with limits, should there?
one thing is clear, the amount of sheep being killed is/will be limited by availability (unlike whitetails). As hunting effort increases, the amount of sheep hunters willing to put in the effort to 'figure out the rams' will too. inevitably, we will reach a point where we have to limit the effort. Maybe not right away, but it will come. that can be done in any number of ways but the existing system will not continue to work.

if you've hunted 25 years and only shot 3 sheep, there shouldn't be a problem with limits, should there?

LOL...I guess it would depend what the limit was.....I hope I've still got another sheep or two in me.

[gunslinger]

Please lord let there be one sheep on these mountains for old gunslinger, all im asking for is 1, LOL You guys talk about shooting three rams, 5 solid trips and over 69 days of hard sheep hunting and still not a legal ram to be found, still hasnt bothered my sheep bug though, I leave for 4 days to go and kill a caribou and i come back to find two nice rams on the picnic table.I think im in for the long haul.

The day it comes its giong to be so rewarding and that is what counts.

I am priority 7 in 437 if they put it at cap 10 i still dont think i woudl go for it, i will still take my chances on the 438 lottery tag, i think alot of people would, its going to be very interesting to see what happens here shortly.

[nube]

Originally Posted by steve

I consider it a guy who has the rams "figured out" in his area. What he does when he finds a legal one with a tag in his pocket is his own business.

I agree.

[Rockymtnx]

We all know that things need to be tweaked a bit, but what needs tweaking is a debate we have been through 100 times on here.
Back to my original question.... What do you guys think about the following proposed changes?



Big Horn Sheep

• Suspend bighorn sheep season in WMUs 429 and 328 for a period of a minimum of four years. Review population estimates and dynamics at the end of 2014 and re assess the proposed strategy for 2015. Traditionally, WMU 328 and 429 have been managed under identical regulations because the sheep belong to the same population (they are considered two metapopulations)

Objective: To support the conservation and long-term research project ongoing at Ram Mountain. This closure will allow for transplanted sheep to reach maturity prior to being harvested.

• Initiate a long-term closure of the sheep season in WMU 326 due to the small resident sheep population. Recent population estimates and the low harvest indicate a declining population of sheep in this WMU.

Objective: Closure of the sheep season to maintain a resident sheep population in WMU 326.

Sheep notes – There is going to be a review of sheep harvest data back to 1975 and current population data. One draw code for trophy sheep and capping priorities at 10 (just for sheep) being considered. Extending wait times under review. WMU 438 will see an increase to 5 tags from three in each of the 3 draws (2011).

[decker]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Please lord let there be one sheep on these mountains for old gunslinger, all im asking for is 1, LOL You guys talk about shooting three rams, 5 solid trips and over 69 days of hard sheep hunting and still not a legal ram to be found, still hasnt bothered my sheep bug though, I leave for 4 days to go and kill a caribou and i come back to find two nice rams on the picnic table.I think im in for the long haul.

The day it comes its giong to be so rewarding and that is what counts.

I am priority 7 in 437 if they put it at cap 10 i still dont think i woudl go for it, i will still take my chances on the 438 lottery tag, i think alot of people would, its going to be very interesting to see what happens here shortly.

X2 Pat I'm with you no matter how long it takes I am going to have a trophy Big horn on my wall, and at the end it will be a load of memories and great scenery I have seen in the persuit of the Big horn.

For me, I'll take their word on the closures. I guess if sheep populations are in trouble there, we shouldn't be hunting them. Hopefully they address the real causes of the problems though.

As for a cap on priority and putting all the sheep under one draw code.....I can't see a fair way of making it happen. I remember having a conversation with the powers that be years ago when they started all the seperate draw codes and asking the question about what would happen down the road when they wanted to add more draws. They patted me on the head and said it would be okay. Apparently it isn't. They are going to pizz off a lot of people with this one. As vfor extending wait times...again I'd like to see the data that says there is an issue with individual hunters killing too many rams. They must have misplaced my last request because they haven't answered it yet. As for more tags in 438.......awesome!

[nube]

I think we need to open up some of these areas that we have lost in the last few years. I know I would have to do a ton of research on 408 to get around with all of the parks and areas you can't hunt now. It seems like there are a ton of parks.

It would be interesting to see if we went to a draw system how long it would be before a guy got a tag. If I had to wait 4-5 years to get a tag but be able to see a bunch of legal rams and have a better chance at a big one because of it I would be fine with it.

[decker]

What if prohibited the use of ATV's. I know if you did this in areas where sheep are taken on a more regular basis it would more than likely benefit the sheep population.

[buck]

if the sheep population is in trouble any where in the province then imop why dont they make the first step that residents only can hunt them it may not be many less killed but a few saved would be better then none in my opion and if some sheep dont ever reach full curl would that be really bad they would be around for breeding which wouldbe good as i see it
this is only my thoughts

Originally Posted by decker

What if prohibited the use of ATV's. I know if you did this in areas where sheep are taken on a more regular basis it would more than likely benefit the sheep population.

Know what you are saying Decker and not that I'm making it, but I guess the same arguement could be made against horses.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Know what you are saying Decker and not that I'm making it, but I guess the same arguement could be made against horses.

The same arguement could also be made against hunting them at all.

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

For me, I'll take their word on the closures. I guess if sheep populations are in trouble there, we shouldn't be hunting them. Hopefully they address the real causes of the problems though.

I have to agree with you on this. As you know I spend some time in the mentioned areas during the summer months. There is a lot of times you could glass for a whole week and not even see a single ewe, lamb, or ram. My own personal opinion is that these areas currently do not hold a good population. Occasionally there is a band of sheep that will grow in size, and then something devastating happens and the whole band is wiped out. I like the idea of the closure in WMU 328, but is this going to help? I wonder what percentage of kills in this WMU are hunter related compared to predators, poachers, and substance hunting kills.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As for more tags in 438.......awesome!

I know this is going to put more pressure on the area and make it a little more crowded, but now it improves my chances of getting a tag.
We all know that this population is large enough, that it could probably withstand a harvest of 17 rams each year. That’s if the success rate was 100%. Which it isn’t.

[decker]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Know what you are saying Decker and not that I'm making it, but I guess the same arguement could be made against horses.

I'm just saying if the restriction on area's were limited to foot access only there would be alot less sheep hunters.

[podman]

Originally Posted by decker

I'm just saying if the restriction on area's were limited to foot access only there would be alot less sheep hunters.

There would IMO need to be a restriction on horses as well as quads if this is the thinking. But I don't think it makes a lot of difference. I don't have a quad or a horse but I am out as much as I can hunting sheep. I just love being in the mountains.

I know this has been discussed in the past instead of a draw I would rather see full curl and/or 8 years old through the province. If you are not sure you can judge age than don't take the shot. For those who take rams too short or too young stiffer penalties such as a fine that goes to sheep habitat and a 3-5 year suspension from hunting sheep. I would rather have the chance to be in the mountains sheep hunting every year (or other if you shoot a sheep) but have tighter restrictions on what you can shoot.

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by wolfkilr

Here are some stats Anne Hubbs presented at the input meeting.
Non resident harvest accounted for 40 to 60 % in the WMU's ASRD consider the "Clearwater" area.

This stat alone should throw up a red flag. How does it benefit a resident of Alberta and improve his or hers opportunity to hunt sheep when a good percentage of sheep are being harvested by non-residents?

[freejoe]

I would be all for foot access and resident hunters only

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

I like the idea of the closure in WMU 328, but is this going to help? I wonder what percentage of kills in this WMU are hunter related compared to predators, poachers, and substance hunting kills.

Yup, regulated hunting rarely is the problem but it sure seems to be the solution a lot.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by freejoe

I would be all for foot access and resident hunters only

And have the vast majority hunting only the outside fringes of sheep country? It's my understanding that the intent of changing sheep regulations is to improve hunter opportunity, not make it worse.

[decker]

[QUOTE=buck;773015]if the sheep population is in trouble any where in the province then imop why dont they make the first step that residents only can hunt them it may not be many less killed but a few saved would be better then none in my opion and if some sheep dont ever reach full curl would that be really bad they would be around for breeding which wouldbe good as i see it
this is only my thoughts[/QUOTE

x2

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by decker

I'm just saying if the restriction on area's were limited to foot access only there would be alot less sheep hunters.

That's true. When I go for a walk back into the canyons in 400 by the Shell Plant it usually isn't very crowded back there.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

I like the idea of the closure in WMU 328, but is this going to help? I wonder what percentage of kills in this WMU are hunter related compared to predators, poachers, and substance hunting kills.

You should include mortality due to capture and handling of sheep during scientific studies. Bio's are doing well if only 10% of captured animals die. Some years this adds up to a high percentrage of the overall mortality.

As is the saying, "Studied to Death".

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

We all know that things need to be tweaked a bit, but what needs tweaking is a debate we have been through 100 times on here.
Back to my original question.... What do you guys think about the following proposed changes?



Big Horn Sheep

• Suspend bighorn sheep season in WMUs 429 and 328 for a period of a minimum of four years. Review population estimates and dynamics at the end of 2014 and re assess the proposed strategy for 2015. Traditionally, WMU 328 and 429 have been managed under identical regulations because the sheep belong to the same population (they are considered two metapopulations)

Objective: To support the conservation and long-term research project ongoing at Ram Mountain. This closure will allow for transplanted sheep to reach maturity prior to being harvested.

• Initiate a long-term closure of the sheep season in WMU 326 due to the small resident sheep population. Recent population estimates and the low harvest indicate a declining population of sheep in this WMU.

Objective: Closure of the sheep season to maintain a resident sheep population in WMU 326.

Sheep notes – There is going to be a review of sheep harvest data back to 1975 and current population data. One draw code for trophy sheep and capping priorities at 10 (just for sheep) being considered. Extending wait times under review. WMU 438 will see an increase to 5 tags from three in each of the 3 draws (2011).

Learned a lot last night. Neither 429 nor 328 are major producers of rams and closure won't matter a hill of beans, to most of us. As I recall, the sheep population of Ram Mountain was up around 300 head, when Morgantini started the study. Only a fraction of that there now. Believe it or not, 30 % of annual rams come from the Clearwater WMUs. Didn't even know there were sheep in 326, but I guess they are concentrated in Ram Canyon. Probably no big deal for most of us either.
Long term problem is too many hunters chasing too few rams. Success rate for residents is about 8 % and 70% for non residents, which probably says more for their hunting style than anything else.
I think they are reluctant to go to a draw, but one of the things under consideration is a quota system, like cougar, but administered to reflect the realities of sheep hunting.

http://mouflons.pvp.ca/Ram%20Mountain.htm

Grizz

Is that too few rams to maintain a healthy sheep population or too few rams to keep some sheep hunters happy?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

In some parts of the world, when a government wants to change the laws, they provide evidence to support their decision.

Something stinks with our sheep management.

According to ACA, only wmu 445 was surveyed in the winter of 09/10.
Many wmu's have not been surveyed since winter 07/08.
http://www.ab-conservation.com/go/de...veys/overview/

According to the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep Status Report - Alberta, that I linked in my last post, there were 12% more sheep in 2008 than in 1989.

SRD better open up the books before making any changes. I'm not buying into the rhetoric coming from them.

Great points. With "what could" happen it would only make sense that some numbers should be generated to come up with a way to make some good decisions. Based on what is in that report and what Hubbs has been quoted here there seems to be a lot of ground in the middle that is missing.

As for non residents I have no problem with non residents here because a lot of Albertans take advantage of other jurisdictions hospitality but it seems that residents will lose out before non residents will. That is wrong. SRD needs to stand up to allocation holders.

I'm curious if Ram Mountain hasn't run its course. To transplant 12 sheep and only have 5 left doesn't seem like a good way to run this area.