Alberta Power Grid Alert

[mmmax]

https://aeso.ca/aeso/media/aeso-than...-conservation/

The AESO worked with the Government of Alberta to issue an Emergency Alert to Albertans, asking them to immediately reduce their electricity use to essential needs only. Almost immediately after the alert was issued, the AESO saw a significant 100 MW drop in electricity demand, which amounted to a 200 MW reduction within minutes

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sigh…. Here I go…

Doncha ya guys think that frivolous consumption isn’t just a wee bit of the problem…?


I don’t see an unsolvable crisis here….. yes education is needed… maybe tiny regulation bits on office towers n such..0

The graph drop clearly demonstrates that we could buy us a 5 to 10 year window to improve infrastructure and develop a proper energy response ( green, nuclear or whatever) just by educating folks and pushing electric timers…?

I’m sure sick of the finger pointing games…it
How bout we do what Albertans are famous for..? Common sense solves..



I’m bored…. No one’s getting up to chase da elks…. Dammit

Of course the public could take steps to improve consumption but also consider the time of day/week that the drop happened. Timing did make it easier for the public cut back as requested. Way too much information missing to even assume that everything that was done to cut back usage could be sustained for a long period of time even. Really we are seeing a change that consisted of hours not days, weeks or months

This doesn’t take away from the fact that upgrades to the grid are clearly needed. It is pretty clear that cutting out coal generated power didn’t help either as there was not enough improvements to infrastructure to offset the loss

Going by memory here but I am pretty sure Alberta is presently the fastest growing province in this country. We have both people coming from within canada and immigrants from other countries moving here. Simply cutting back on individual power consumption is not going to keep up no matter how hard we try

Add in Federal governments dream of pushing for both EV use and increased immigration it’s pretty clear improvement/investment into infrastructure is desperately needed. Unfortunately our politicians often like to put on a show without looking at all the details on what is needed to accomplish their goals or consequences of knee jerk virtue signaling

The joys of being managed by blow hards and big mouth monkeys who don’t think long term

Nothing wrong with the idea that the public should be more conservative in their power use but it’s basically just a wet bandage when it comes to the issue overall

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Pretty sure you know that most govt and folks are reactive to situations… any technology will take time to get good and it’s going to need to be in The market for market forces to grab hold and develop. We all tolerated Windows 98 and Windows ‘95…. Now we have decent software mostly… but yes ‘them damn computers’ make great convenient scapegoats.

Solar, wind, nuclear (thorium molten salt), and battery techs will need time ….

Moderate consumption via informed decisions.. graph
Shows it’s an easy mini solve.

What you offer is a non solution. You can’t expect everyone to ration power for the next ten years, that’s just ridiculous.
What we need to do is bring reliable sources of power back online until they get their crap figured out with an actual solution like nuclear.
All I hear from government officials is forcing people to use more power with their virtue signalling policies but there is no mention of improving the grid with reliable energy.
Wind and solar is garbage and always will be.
I guess you weren’t a farmer, because any farmer will tell you the weather is unreliable and always wins. You can’t rely on the weather for power.

[bessiedog]

You said it… ‘with current technology’.

Read the rest of what I’m suggesting.

Reduced consumption buys time. Govt needs to invest in current infrastructure and other modalities.

4.5 billion currently invested in hydrogen fuel infrastructure in Edmonton-region currently. Promising stuff there maybe to further develop our nat gas potential.

- S. Alta is now the land of the windmill, with no end of development in sight. Market forces are now starting to tweak the tech more effectively… there’s potential there I think.

- very curious as to why we’re not looking into other Nuclear ideas…. I see a lot of potential there.

Sounds like you and I agree…. We need 10
Years..
IF Aunti Dani is actually looking at a developing a responsible kind of plan for solar and wind implementation during this moratorium…. Then yes good idea… but seeing as where she comes from… I doubt it.

Graph go down from simple request….that’s great! Now let’s have a moar serious discussion about the situation we are in and work
The problem.


Buckculler…. Read my posts. I’m
Not promoting any source… but I’m not discounting any possible solution either… I
Musta triggered ya. Sorry.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I realize that, but would it be quicker than planning and building a new plant from scratch?

The other issue is companies and share holder support, lots of share holders trumpet the green agenda and see coal fired generation as a no fly zone, and therefore when the shareholders pull their money guess what happens?

The issue is who’s paying for it?

Do we go back to a regulated electrical system, stay un regulated…. What?

Does the government supply tax payers dollars to effect companies to fire back up on coal to supplant the plummeting share price?

Does the government get into the generation or electrical game making it all a crown corporation?

The issues are layered worse than a 4 pound onion I’m afraid!

[Irina]

I wonder if this was actually close to overloading the grid. I do remember getting a covid emergency alert on my phone a while back, and that was a laugh. It's crazy, we live in alberta and it's like this is the first time we have had winter. What was wrong with yesterday.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

While the load reduction may have been partly due to people hearing the emergency warning, that warning also came out during the normal peak load period, so we would expect to see the load fall, as people finished their cooking , and keep falling, as people shut down electrical loads, and went to sleep. We will see what happens from 5 to 8 today.

...............

[bessiedog]

Good points Dick. It’s a tough one for sure.

We don’t have effective market forces competition in the power generation game…. It’s been almost 30 years…. And we’re stuck in a n oligopoly situation… not a lot of incentive to develop in a captive market.

Hate to say it, but hove may have to drive this issue….. ugh.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You said it… ‘with current technology’.

Read the rest of what I’m suggesting.

Reduced consumption buys time. Govt needs to invest in current infrastructure and other modalities.

4.5 billion currently invested in hydrogen fuel infrastructure in Edmonton-region currently. Promising stuff there maybe to further develop our nat gas potential.

- S. Alta is now the land of the windmill, with no end of development in sight. Market forces are now starting to tweak the tech more effectively… there’s potential there I think.

- very curious as to why we’re not looking into other Nuclear ideas…. I see a lot of potential there.

Sounds like you and I agree…. We need 10
Years..
IF Aunti Dani is actually looking at a developing a responsible kind of plan for solar and wind implementation during this moratorium…. Then yes good idea… but seeing as where she comes from… I doubt it.

Graph go down from simple request….that’s great! Now let’s have a moar serious discussion about the situation we are in and work
The problem.

I posted "using today's technology" because that is the quickest way to increase generation. If we spend 10 years developing something new, then take another 10 years to build facilities, that is 20 years until we see any results. As to wind generation, are you aware that production at -40 is 0%? Do you know why it is 0%? A little tweaking won't solve that, so why build more wind generation, when we can't use it below -30? Nuclear? There would likely be legal challenges that would keep things in the courts for years.
As for that graph, it went down 1.3%, and that is for hours, not days or months. What about the situations that Dick mentioned? A single incident, and that 1.3% wouldn't have prevented shutdowns.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You said it… ‘with current technology’.

Read the rest of what I’m suggesting.

Reduced consumption buys time. Govt needs to invest in current infrastructure and other modalities.

4.5 billion currently invested in hydrogen fuel infrastructure in Edmonton-region currently. Promising stuff there maybe to further develop our nat gas potential.

- S. Alta is now the land of the windmill, with no end of development in sight. Market forces are now starting to tweak the tech more effectively… there’s potential there I think.

- very curious as to why we’re not looking into other Nuclear ideas…. I see a lot of potential there.

Sounds like you and I agree…. We need 10
Years..
IF Aunti Dani is actually looking at a developing a responsible kind of plan for solar and wind implementation during this moratorium…. Then yes good idea… but seeing as where she comes from… I doubt it.

Graph go down from simple request….that’s great! Now let’s have a moar serious discussion about the situation we are in and work
The problem.


Buckculler…. Read my posts. I’m
Not promoting any source… but I’m not discounting any possible solution either… I
Musta triggered ya. Sorry.

Or you could just drop power rates during low usage periods to encourage people to change their habits......it's pretty common approach that seems to work quite well in other areas.https://electric.atco.com/en-ca/ener.../time-use.html

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Or you could just drop power rates during low usage periods to encourage people to change their habits......it's pretty common approach that seems to work quite well in other areas.

How many of those areas deal with -40? We don't have the conditions that they have in say Toronto, or Vancouver, so what works for them, won't work for us.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You said it… ‘with current technology’.

Read the rest of what I’m suggesting.

Reduced consumption buys time. Govt needs to invest in current infrastructure and other modalities.

4.5 billion currently invested in hydrogen fuel infrastructure in Edmonton-region currently. Promising stuff there maybe to further develop our nat gas potential.

- S. Alta is now the land of the windmill, with no end of development in sight. Market forces are now starting to tweak the tech more effectively… there’s potential there I think.

- very curious as to why we’re not looking into other Nuclear ideas…. I see a lot of potential there.

Sounds like you and I agree…. We need 10
Years..
IF Aunti Dani is actually looking at a developing a responsible kind of plan for solar and wind implementation during this moratorium…. Then yes good idea… but seeing as where she comes from… I doubt it.

Graph go down from simple request….that’s great! Now let’s have a moar serious discussion about the situation we are in and work
The problem.


Buckculler…. Read my posts. I’m
Not promoting any source… but I’m not discounting any possible solution either… I
Musta triggered ya. Sorry.

Rationing power usage for ten years is out of the question.

Hydrogen is extremely inefficient.
The fundamental problem lies in the laws of physics. Between 50 and 80 percent of the energy value of clean electricity is lost in the process of making hydrogen and then burning it to generate electricity. Some of those losses occur in the electrolysis process, which is roughly 70 to 75 percent efficient. But the lion’s share of losses come in burning hydrogen to spin a generator, a process which at best is roughly 64 percent efficient using the latest combined-cycle gas turbines and can drop to 35 to 42 percent efficiency in older combustion turbines.

Windmills and solar are next to useless for long stretches of time in our environment.

That leaves three options Natural gas, coal or nuclear, that’s it.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Irina

I wonder if this was actually close to overloading the grid. I do remember getting a covid emergency alert on my phone a while back, and that was a laugh. It's crazy, we live in alberta and it's like this is the first time we have had winter. What was wrong with yesterday.

Trust me when I say the AESO Supply and Demand resource is real time and accurate. (The industry I work in)
The issue was real, and I’ve been saying that for years.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I posted "using today's technology" because that is the quickest way to increase generation. If we spend 10 years developing something new, then take another 10 years to build facilities, that is 20 years until we see any results. As to wind generation, are you aware that production at -40 is 0%? Do you know why it is 0%? A little tweaking won't solve that, so why build more wind generation, when we can't use it below -30? Nuclear? There would likely be legal challenges that would keep things in the courts for years.
As for that graph, it went down 1.3%, and that is for hours, not days or months. What about the situations that Dick mentioned? A single incident, and that 1.3% wouldn't have prevented shutdowns.

You’re so right. We’re doomed. No sense trying new things.

We’ll only ever get a 1.3% drop… no sense discussing it.

And there too many absolutely insurmountable obstacles to trying anything else.

And wind/solar nukes are only viable if they are 1000% reliable.

We’re doomed.

Unless we go back to way we grew up with…

Ok.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

How many of those areas deal with -40?

Grande Prairie appears chilly right now, as well BC has some pretty cold areas...... Starting in the spring the BC is putting in a program that lets you opt in for cheaper electricity from midnight to 7am (4.5 cents) power, in exchange for more expensive power at 4pm to 9pm (14.5 cents).
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/h...illing-7986518

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Rationing power usage for ten years is out of the question.

Hydrogen is extremely inefficient.
The fundamental problem lies in the laws of physics. Between 50 and 80 percent of the energy value of clean electricity is lost in the process of making hydrogen and then burning it to generate electricity. Some of those losses occur in the electrolysis process, which is roughly 70 to 75 percent efficient. But the lion’s share of losses come in burning hydrogen to spin a generator, a process which at best is roughly 64 percent efficient using the latest combined-cycle gas turbines and can drop to 35 to 42 percent efficiency in older combustion turbines.

Windmills and solar are next to useless for long stretches of time in our environment.

That leaves three options Natural gas, coal or nuclear, that’s it.

And yet the entire auto industry is changing over. Other counties are shifting power sources. Our own country only creates 20% of its electrical power using fossil fuels…..

Perhaps look around..?

Or it is that global cabal at work again…? That’s where this ‘discussion’ is going.

[Savage Bacon]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You’re so right. We’re doomed. No sense trying new things.



We’ll only ever get a 1.3% drop… no sense discussing it.



And there too many absolutely insurmountable obstacles to trying anything else.



And wind/solar nukes are only viable if they are 1000% reliable.



We’re doomed.



Unless we go back to way we grew up with…



Ok.

No one is against new technologies. But new technologies aren't the next great idea that doesn't work. They do take years in actual development. Not just mumbo jumbo to make the fan base happy. I think our issue is that it was working fine, before it was unplugged.

Sent from my SM-S901W using Tapatalk

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Grande Prairie appears chilly right now, as well BC has some pretty cold areas...... Starting in the spring the BC is putting in a program that lets you opt in for cheaper electricity from midnight to 7am (4.5 cents) power, in exchange for more expensive power at 4pm to 7pm (14.5 cents).
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/h...illing-7986518

How dare you suggest a solution!

[gman1978]

We should still be rolling coal responsibility until there is an actual better solution. Wind and solar is not. Especially in winter. Another example of a woke government listening to the climate cult instead of actual common sense. There is a good chance the technology that will help is not even developed and it’s not electric. If not welcome to the left wing Utopia. Ain’t it great! What would Nutly do??!

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

How dare you suggest a solution!

Sorry......

[Sledhead71]

A record amount of new natural gas-fired power is set to come online in Alberta next year, providing relief for consumers but making the province’s electricity grid even more reliant on unabated fossil fuels.

More than 2,700 megawatts of new gas generation will fire up in 2024, according to most recent long-term adequacy report by the Alberta Electricity System Operator (AESO), which manages and operates the provincial power grid. The increase amounts to just over a quarter of Alberta’s current generating power being added to the grid in a single year.

The bulk of the new electricity coming online is from three projects: The 900-megawatt Cascade plant in Edson, about 200 kilometres west of Edmonton; an 800-MW cogeneration project at Suncor Energy’s oil sands Base Plant; and the repowering of Genesee 1 and 2, a coal-to-gas conversion plant southwest of Edmonton, bringing just over 930 MW to the grid.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

And yet the entire auto industry is changing over. Other counties are shifting power sources. Our own country only creates 20% of its electrical power using fossil fuels…..

Perhaps look around..?

Or it is that global cabal at work again…? That’s where this ‘discussion’ is going.

Yeh how’s the auto industry gonna work out when the grid can’t support it. By the way they are being forced to build electric cars by the government. Not their first choice.

The reason we only produce 20% by fossil fuels is because of hydro which is not an option here.

Perhaps pull your head out?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You’re so right. We’re doomed. No sense trying new things.

We’ll only ever get a 1.3% drop… no sense discussing it.

And there too many absolutely insurmountable obstacles to trying anything else.

And wind/solar nukes are only viable if they are 1000% reliable.

We’re doomed.

Unless we go back to way we grew up with…

Ok.

Wind is 0% below -30, so we can't depend on it at all in these situations. Nuclear is reliable, but many people are too afraid of it, and would never accept it.
As to a solution, we could have kept burning coal and oil, and heating with gas, and using gas/diesel vehicles, until there are practical replacements. But that is just too much common sense for the woke/green fanatics agendas.

[bessiedog]

Role Coal responsibly…… how does one actually do that..?

Do you selenium much? I got several municipal water wells to sell you in the Elk valley….

2024 new gas gens are prolly a reasonable step regarding the state of Alt technology. But don’t stop developing…

We blew up a decade of rockets before we made it into orbit. Tech development to
Viable use product has a predictable timeline actually….. solar and wind are on the same curve as other historical tech developments.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Grande Prairie appears chilly right now, as well BC has some pretty cold areas...... Starting in the spring the BC is putting in a program that lets you opt in for cheaper electricity from midnight to 7am (4.5 cents) power, in exchange for more expensive power at 4pm to 9pm (14.5 cents).
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/h...illing-7986518

And what percentage of B.C.s population lives where it gets -40, or even -30 on a regular basis? And that is why they are offering it in B.C. , the vast majority of the population lives where they never see cold temperatures, and that is why they may see significant gain by doing this.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Yeh how’s the auto industry gonna work out when the grid can’t support it. By the way they are being forced to build electric cars by the government. Not their first choice.

The reason we only produce 20% by fossil fuels is because of hydro which is not an option here.

Perhaps pull your head out?

I guess we’ll find out ‘how it’s going to handle it’ because that’s where it’s heading…. And imma betting those investing big$ into it just possibly might know more than you and your insults.

But I could be wrong.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Wind is 0% below -30, so we can't depend on it at all in these situations. Nuclear is reliable, but many people are too afraid of it, and would never accept it.
As to a solution, we could have kept burning coal and oil, and heating with gas, and using gas/diesel vehicles, until there are practical replacements. But that is just too much common sense for the woke/green fanatics agendas.

You dint read my full posts. You triggered and decided to grump.

You should read my whole thing.


Kids r up… we’re off to chase elk.

Have a good morning.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And what percentage of B.C.s population lives where it gets -40, or even -30 on a regular basis? And that is why they are offering it in B.C. , the vast majority of the population lives where they never see cold temperatures, and that is why they may see significant gain by doing this.

I'm not sure what percentage of the province is at minus 40, but a pretty good chunk of it is pretty cold. Rest assured BC didn't invent the idea, they're just using a system that's been proven to work in many areas of the world, and it's virtually free. That's probably why ATCO is trialing it in Grande Prairie.
Money is a pretty strong attractant for a lot of people, and I'm sure if a gas station advertised their fuel for 50 cents a litre starting at midnight there would be a line 5 blocks long!! So why not electricity?? It doesn't seem that big of a deal to set your washing machine, or dishwasher for 1 am if it's going to be cheaper. Now setting your Tesla to charge overnight and getting a "full tank" for $4.50 will be amazing!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

I guess we’ll find out ‘how it’s going to handle it’ because that’s where it’s heading…. And imma betting those investing big$ into it just possibly might know more than you and your insults.

But I could be wrong.

EV sales aren't exactly going as hoped by the investors.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...p/71572499007/


As a result, the manufactures are significantly cutting production of EVs. Some dealers are opting out of electric vehicles altogether.



https://electrek.co/2023/11/27/ford-...ealer-program/

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...st-selling-evs

Toyota's response
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBpQ58uf9ZA

And this is all in spite of governments legislating EVs.

[Zip]

All of you who live in Alberta and are getting alerts and rolling your appliances on and off…and unplugging vehicles…go ahead and just run with your regular everyday usages…us Saskatchewan people sent some unused power we had to help ya all out…your welcome!
Stay warm, don’t listen to govt noise…
Zip