Ron Smith gain twist barrels

[HW223]

Originally Posted by purgatory.sv

Is this because the Alberta makers will not or can’t meet the requirements for your discipline?

Not sure, I have only seen Ted's barrels in sbr. Never seen an rks and I believe Bob is waiting for feedback on testing, it's a tough crowd at the national level of SBR , no other discipline demands the kind of accuracy it takes to win a group shoot.
Like I said it all depends on what your looking for in your set up , I'm sure any of the local makers can make you a barrel to exceed what is needed for sporting or hunting.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by HW223

The bullet does not stabilize because of the gain ,The twist rate at the muzzle will determine stability , we don't usually use barrels with a big gain such as RS , in our discipline we rely on the small gain mostly to ensure the bullet twist is neutral or speeding up slightly as the bullet leaves the muzzle.

So the answer from your experience is you don’t know if the smith barrels will increase velocity, but the gradual gain from the products used in your disciple do?

[HW223]

Originally Posted by purgatory.sv

So the answer from your experience is you don’t know if the smith barrels will increase velocity, but the gradual gain from the products used in your disciple do?

Nope , I don't know that either one will increase velocity , to be honest we shoot pretty hot so added velocity is not what we are looking for , in the words of Tony Boyer , we are looking for "forgiveness "in a barrel meaning the one that will agg the best and win , that's why we test and shoot so much and so many types . Again The saying BR shooters are like sheep may appear to be true from the outside . How ever we are constantly on the hunt for a better mouse trap trying anything we thing may give any edge over the competition. As always though you have to take your best stuff to the line not what you wish was best .

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by HW223

Nope , I don't know that either one will increase velocity , to be honest we shoot pretty hot so added velocity is not what we are looking for , in the words of Tony Boyer , we are looking for "forgiveness "in a barrel meaning the one that will agg the best and win , that's why we test and shoot so much and so many types . Again The saying BR shooters are like sheep may appear to be true from the outside . How ever we are constantly on the hunt for a better mouse trap trying anything we thing may give any edge over the competition. As always though you have to take your best stuff to the line not what you wish was best .

thank you.

[Ray Ray]

Have a few words with this guy . His knowledge pushed me to send him my 7mm. I don't know anyone that has not been more than happy with his guidance and work.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Ray Ray

Have a few words with this guy . His knowledge pushed me to send him my 7mm. I don't know anyone that has not been more than happy with his guidance and work.

You will probably notice that RKS gain twist barrels will reduce chamber pressures a wee bit. I think that is because the bullet is not instantly trying to accelerate forward and spin 180,000 rpm or better in the same millisecond or so after ignition.. I also think they are less stressful on some bullet jackets... especially if the bullet does'nt engage the lands perfectly. The very slow initial twist rate allows some xtra time for them to stabilize before they really get to spinning. At least those are my thoughts on gain twist. There's no downside to progressive twist at all , that I have experienced.


I have four of Rons GT barrels and they are all superbly accurate in calibers from 6.5 to .35 Whelen.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by HW223

I presume ( and maybe wrongly so ) that Most of the posts on here are to do with hunting sporter type barrels in which case the rks should be more than fine and may serve you well , the fact that he is local and barrels are available Is even better. The rebar barrel story your talking about was done for competition with cast bullets ( where they do well) .in no way does that translate to disciplines with big pressure and jacketed bullets ,( where they are unheard of ) so that would be apples and oranges and not fair to either barrel maker to compare them .
I have had a bore scope in a few of the mentioned barrels and they looked ok except for the lack of lapping.

Seems Tony Boyer likes progressive twist as well.

https://www.google.ca/search?sxsrf=A...4dUDCAg&uact=5

Maybe he, and a few others, discoverd something Ron Smith knew all along. About time methinks.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by north american hunter

Apparently Ron Smith makes good barrels, my son is wanting to put one on his 35 whelen as we'll he wants to use 225 grain bullets he is thinking 1:14 as well.

I have an 18-14 Progressive twist on my .35 Whelen Ai 24.5 " RKS barrel and it's as good as they get. Highly recommended.

[catnthehat]

I have used Ron's gain twist barrels for about 22 years now, and really like them, they do seem to clean easier for me and are super accurate..
As far as velocity gains, etc, I think that is more folk lore than anything, the great Harry Pope built gain twist barrels for accuracy's sake in his cast bullet rifles.
Cat

[Pioneer2]

Ron is a disciple of Popes teachings.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

Ron is a disciple of Popes teachings.

Oh yeah, for sure he is one of those cast bullet looneys!
Cat

[quasi]

he is also the only fellow in Canada who rebores/rifles barrels. With all the new barrel makers in Canada, hopefully someone will take the load off Ron.

[double gun]

I think jury is reboring aswell, and I bug jc from time to time and he isn’t against the idea but needs to redesign some of this equipment.

[quasi]

I have talked to J.C. about him doing it. Even Ron Smith has tried to convince him.

[sns2]

Anyone know how much he charges to do a re-bore? Are they as accurate? I'm thinking of going from 270 to 30-06.

[cody c]

Velocity, why RKS barrels are faster:

This is my opinion based on my understanding as to why the RKS gain twist barrels can be faster:

Lets take some square numbers to make this easy, lets say a somewhat hot loaded 300WM with a 1:12 twist moves a projectile at 3000fps. That rotation equals 180,000 RPM (3000x60) your rifle is accelerating that projectile up to maybe 10% of that speed within an inch or so, and the projectile is getting cut within about .010" in the first couple inches and small fractions of a second, you've instantly accelerated a projectile to 18,000RPM (guessing). And that's just with a 1:12 twist.

The rotation essentially creates a back pressure, as the force required to accelerate the projectile shows up in resistance to forward motion to create that spin. Faster twist barrels will show pressure signs earlier than slower twist on average.

Having a slow twist at the start start allows hotter loading while the faster twist at the exit gives stability. To start with a slow twist will allow a faster projectile, if it accelerates the rotation as pressure lowers behind the projectile it can still have stability and accuracy.

There is a caveat: as the twist of the rifling increases, it continues to swedge the projectile the entire length of the barrel, or until the twist stops increasing... But, this also creates a tighter bore over the length keeping gases from passing the projectile and keeps the force behind it. Why cast loads would be popular and do well in GT barrels.

As compared to button rifling, a cut rifling should remove material equally and continuously throughout the length of the bore. Swedging a die through presses/expands the steel and it swells outwards as it displaces material. At the breech (fat end) it has more material at the perimeter to want to force the rifling into shape, whereas at the muzzle (skinny end) the material can press outwards easier, theoretically the bore will be ever so slightly larger at the breech, allowing gases to move around the projectile slightly.

I hope this helps for you wondering how it is theoretically possible for gain twist barrels to be faster.

To what degree or if the speed differences are relevant depends on other very specific factors (caliber, twist rates in comparison etc) so we're better off taking the word of those who have used gain twist barrels than trying to figure out exact numbers.

A disclaimer, I had Ron rebore to gain twist on a rifle, and his son did some work on a 788 for me so I probably have some bias.

[catnthehat]

I never found much increase if any in velocity of the RKS numerous barrels I had/have over my others such as Krieger, Douglas, McGowan, etc.
What I do find is superb accuracy, and they tend to clean very easily.
I read an article once with a discussion from two very well know barrel makers, and the general consensus about barrel quality was no so much whether it was button rifled or cut rifled, gain or straight, but HOW it was made.
That being said, anytime I get a chance to buy a rifle with one of Ron's barrels on it, I grab it if at all possible- just picked up another with a regular twist in 6mmBR!
Cat

[madcarpenter]

Anyone have Ron Smiths number? I’m looking to get a barrel for 22 dasher and a 284.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by madcarpenter

Anyone have Ron Smiths number? I’m looking to get a barrel for 22 dasher and a 284.

(403)631 2405
Cat

[cody c]

I was there earlier this year and his son was doing work around farming, also a capable smith and nice gentleman, but Ron is in his mid 80's now so you may be working less with him directly. Just a heads up.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by cody c

I was there earlier this year and his son was doing work around farming, also a capable smith and nice gentleman, but Ron is in his mid 80's now so you may be working less with him directly. Just a heads up.

Very true, the fact remains however that the barrel would be coming out of the RKS shop, and I would assume that Ron would do QA/QC on every barrel.
That being said, I have complete confidence in his son as well, as he was trained by one of the best in the business!
Cat

[HW223]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Seems Tony Boyer likes progressive twist as well.

https://www.google.ca/search?sxsrf=A...4dUDCAg&uact=5

Maybe he, and a few others, discoverd something Ron Smith knew all along. About time methinks.

Tony shoots barrels from several manufactures the gain twist barrels from Bartlien are normally 13.85-13.75 ,and sometimes 15-14.25, the rational is to maintain positive engagement on the bullet nothing else. Tony also wins with straight twist barrels so at the end of the day he's just really hard to beat

[madcarpenter]

Thank you Cat!

[1973 Moose]

I have 2 Ron Smith gain twist barrels, one in 300 Wby and the other in 340 Wby. both are 17-1 to 10-1 twists. Neither one got any increase in speed from a straight 10-1 barrels, but both, after considerable testing with loads, bullets and "COL" would not produce any group better than 1.75 inches. I know that everyone is going to say that they are "WEATHERBY'S. But the first 300Wby that I had made by Wolfe's guns in Edmonton 30 years ago would print sub 1/2" groups all day long using 200gr Sierra Game King bullets, with IMR 7828 powder. My advice is NOT to put any gain twist barrel on any rifle. you are changing the grooves on the bullet thus making the bullet sloppy in the riflings.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by 1973 Moose

I have 2 Ron Smith gain twist barrels, one in 300 Wby and the other in 340 Wby. both are 17-1 to 10-1 twists. Neither one got any increase in speed from a straight 10-1 barrels, but both, after considerable testing with loads, bullets and "COL" would not produce any group better than 1.75 inches. I know that everyone is going to say that they are "WEATHERBY'S. But the first 300Wby that I had made by Wolfe's guns in Edmonton 30 years ago would print sub 1/2" groups all day long using 200gr Sierra Game King bullets, with IMR 7828 powder. My advice is NOT to put any gain twist barrel on any rifle. you are changing the grooves on the bullet thus making the bullet sloppy in the riflings.

17-1 & 10-1?

Surely you mean a final twist of, 1 turn in 17”, and 1 turn in 10”.

And if I recall most of Ron’s gain twist’s start out at or around a 1 turn in 22” rate.

And too your accuracy point, I’ve never seen on of Ron’s gain twist barrels that didn’t shoot.
I’ve got 2 myself. My 1 in 22” to 1 in 12”, 25’06 would make a lot of fancier brand name barrels pale in comparison.
My 1 in 22” to 1 in 10” .280 AI, gives true MOA accuracy from true hunting bullets.
I’ve also witnessed other RKS barrels perform similarly, so your sloppy engraving theory is pure bunk.
Ever heard of bullet obtrusion?

[Dick284]

I’ll also add to my above post, that many a good shooting barrel has been ruined by the person fitting and chambering it.

There’s a reason Mr. Smith only sells his barrels to a select few gunsmiths, nowadays.

[robinpeck]

Is Ron Smith still in business? (I used to live near his shop and have been there several times.) If not, who else is reboring barrels in Canada?

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by robinpeck

Is Ron Smith still in business? (I used to live near his shop and have been there several times.) If not, who else is reboring barrels in Canada?

Ron is more or less on the sidelines these days, his son or son in law or some male relative is doing the lion share of the work now.

So, RKS is still doing business.

[Pioneer2]

Gerald 403-631-2482