Load development - groups

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

IMO, attention to detail with reloading and load development ... produces results directly proportional to what is put into it. I can rely on the formula established by others and who knows, maybe I’ll get lucky, but more often than not those (untuned) results are mediocre in terms of accuracy.
And as a side note, I have never found a magic shortcut to load development. I start with a fixed seating depth, establish the optimum charge weight (the proof of which is on paper downrange)....and then tinker with seating depth. There is typically enough shot dispersion with 100m (5 shot) groups to determine vertical stringing. After establishing the sweet spot, a couple of 300M (5 shot) groups showing a minimum of vertical will provide better information ... without the use of a chrony. More often than not, when I practice at 300m, I shoot ten shot groups.

My question revolves around it’s practical application in the field. This stuff is all fine and good, but let’s be honest, it has nothing to do with hunting. It has everything to do with holes in paper.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by chuck

My question revolves around it’s practical application in the field. This stuff is all fine and good, but let’s be honest, it has nothing to do with hunting. It has everything to do with holes in paper.

By the very nature of the question - load development - it's pretty certain the OP wants to attain the best accuracy he can. It's a fine happy past-time, and a nice challenge.

You are right though, Chuck. You need to sell your reloading equipment and buy Remington Core-Lokts from Wally World. They will do everything you need them to do. We all know that you would harvest the exact same amount of game that you currently do. Factory ammo offers so many great selections, that for hunting purpose, reloading is unnecessary unless you simply enjoy it which many do. That's a fact.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by bpk1982

I'm curious about number of shots per group when developing loads for a hunting rifle. I always start with 3 shot groups. Typically I'll move up to 5 per group when I feel I'm close. More times then not, the first 3 shots are acceptable but with the inclusion of 4 and 5 the group spreads more then I'd like. Not always, but typically. Some times I'll scrap that load and start over. But it's got me thinking, for a hunting rifle, should I only be looking for 3 shot groups and if they spread after that, who cares? Curious what others are doing. I'm currently working on a tikka 7mm rem mag, H1000 and 162 eldx. For 3 shots it'll mostly print groups 1/2" to 1 & 1/8". That is acceptable to me for a hunting rifle. When I get into 5 or more shots into the group it'll spread to 1.5" plus. Heat must be a factor but I dont ever let the barrel get too hot. Thoughts?

Sometimes we tend to look in the wrong direction when trying to work up loads and shoot groups .
Personally speaking , I would be looking at my form if the first three shots are always consistent but anything after those tend to open up a group.

Proper form in the shot sequence is a part of shooting that is often overlooked and in some cases outright dismissed by some shooters but the fact remains that it is s very important part of the whole picture if one wants to progress as far as shooting goes .
Cat

[elkhunter11]

If the first three shots are good, and the next two shots are the issue, perhaps there rifle has a bedding issue.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sns2

By the very nature of the question - load development - it's pretty certain the OP wants to attain the best accuracy he can. It's a fine happy past-time, and a nice challenge.

You are right though, Chuck. You need to sell your reloading equipment and buy Remington Core-Lokts from Wally World. They will do everything you need them to do. We all know that you would harvest the exact same amount of game that you currently do. Factory ammo offers so many great selections, that for hunting purpose, reloading is unnecessary unless you simply enjoy it which many do. That's a fact.

The OP clearly states that he is developing loads for a hunting rifle.

I had a gentleman ask me at the range last week about getting into reloading. I warned him that unless this was something he really wanted to do, to consider factory ammunition instead.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the first three shots are good, and the next two shots are the issue, perhaps there rifle has a bedding issue.

No, it’s the statistical sample size. In my experience, this irons itself out with 10 shots. In other words a 10 shot group looks round and generally doesn’t get bigger.

[stob]

starting load work up i punch 5 shot groups at 150 - 200m with usually 5 different powders at 5% off max the 2 best groups get some ladder 5 shot groups at 100m til I get at least 2 dialed in groups with at least 2 different powders.... my feeling is that you can always luck out on 3 shot groups, but 5 shot groups don't let you lie (as much) to yourself

[sns2]

Originally Posted by chuck

The OP clearly states that he is developing loads for a hunting rifle.

I had a gentleman ask me at the range last week about getting into reloading. I warned him that unless this was something he really wanted to do, to consider factory ammunition instead.

Most reloaders I know chase accuracy to the same extent with a Tikka T3 as they do with a Tikka CTR.

You gave that gentleman good advice.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by sns2

Most reloaders I know chase accuracy to the same extent with a Tikka T3 as they do with a Tikka CTR.

You gave that gentleman good advice.

I don't chase accuracy to the nth degree in a hunting rifle. That's like trying to play pool with a rope.
We are talking hunting rifles here.

[barsik]

for a hunting rifle, a 3 shot group is probably good enough, but the real issue is where does the first shot out of a clean barrel go.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by barsik

for a hunting rifle, a 3 shot group is probably good enough, but the real issue is where does the first shot out of a clean barrel go.

That is a whole nother can of worms.
I won't hunt a rifle with a clean barrel. It's checked and fouled at the range prior. I leave it that way all season.

[Salavee]

I think it's all about finding a load that is consistent , be it for targets or hunting. You set the parameters that you're happy with and take it from there. Seldom will you find any degree of consistency with factory loads. That's why we handload. For others, factory ammo delivers enough consistency to get the job done to their satisfaction. That's what counts.

Personally, I take it as a challenge to wring the most accuracy possible from any rifle I use, whether for targets or hunting ..because I enjoy doing it. It's only a Hobby with a challenge. How anal anyone wants to get about their hobby is entirely up to them as are the methods they use to achieve their goals. Nobody loses.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

I don't chase accuracy to the nth degree in a hunting rifle. That's like trying to play pool with a rope.

We are talking hunting rifles here.

I do not recall mentioning you. I do recall saying most reloaders I know.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[260 Rem]

I am as picky with developing loads for my hunting rifles as I am with those used strictly at the Range. I want every firearm I use to shoot to its full potential, partly because I know that in field conditions I will seldom be in a position to duplicate those at the Range. So, if my 1/2MOA “range” groups open up threefold to 1.5MOA with my heart pounding and my rifle resting on my backpack...I am confident that quartering buck standing 300m away is coming home with me. Now, if I stared off with a 2MOA load, I might not even take the shot.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I am as picky with developing loads for my hunting rifles as I am with those used strictly at the Range. I want every firearm I use to shoot to its full potential, partly because I know that in field conditions I will seldom be in a position to duplicate those at the Range. So, if my 1/2MOA “range” groups open up threefold to 1.5MOA with my heart pounding and my rifle resting on my backpack...I am confident that quartering buck standing 300m away is coming home with me. Now, if I stared off with a 2MOA load, I might not even take the shot.

In a Nutshell !

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I am as picky with developing loads for my hunting rifles as I am with those used strictly at the Range. I want every firearm I use to shoot to its full potential, partly because I know that in field conditions I will seldom be in a position to duplicate those at the Range. So, if my 1/2MOA “range” groups open up threefold to 1.5MOA with my heart pounding and my rifle resting on my backpack...I am confident that quartering buck standing 300m away is coming home with me. Now, if I stared off with a 2MOA load, I might not even take the shot.

totally agree...

I started reloading because I had a .243 that couldn't hit a sheet of ply wood at a 100 yards..Turned out to be a 1" rifle in the end...now all my rifles are 1" guns...
I also have SOOOOO...many more choices in bullet selection, and when you know your rifle will shoot your confidence level goes up a bunch in the field.
Is reloading for everyone ? Nope, but neither is a $100,000 dollar hole in the water...each to their own.

[Pathfinder76]

You can be as picky as you want. That’s fine. But a 1” gun is missing by 1/2” and a 1/2” gun is missing by 1/4”. That’s your difference. What does a 20 degree drop in temperature do to your zero? What happens to your groups when you aren’t sitting on your bags at the exact same position while sitting on the bench? I’m hearing that field positions and rests can replicate a bench scenario and now that hunting positions will open groups? Which is it?

When bear season is done I’m going to try and film what a 1” gun will do in the field prone (with no bipod) out to at least 500yds. I’m interested to see what happens there.

[obsessed1]

I chase the most accurate load in all my rifles.most of my rifles are hunting rifles. All my testing/shooting with a hunting rifle is done from field positions using rests I will use while hunting. Once loads are developed I rarely shoot groups. I spend a lot of rounds at various distances on various target sizes looking for 1st round hits. Once I start constantly hitting at a certain range I switch to a smaller target. 1st round hits are all in concerned with my hunting rifles.

3 shot groups and low SD ( single digit of possible)is what I use to determine accurate loads

[32-40win]

That's one of the things I like about reloading, get an idea, go try it. See a component that turns your crank, go try it. See what works, see what doesn't. Learn about what your limitations are or aren't, thru doing it. I don't mind burning up some extra powder and bullets and learning in the process, never know what you'll find out.

[260 Rem]

OP sorry for the derail to "hunting".... Will try to ignore the "bait" and leave it to the bears.
I can't speak for others but when I get ready to hunt, I leave my ammo/rifle in the car outside overnight ...shoot a cold round at a the same target several days so I know pretty much where where the bullet will land after I sit out on a hill for an hour. Works for me. Seldom do I find my cold loads require further tweetking.
It seems the main difference between shot placement on a piece of paper vs a piece of hide, is the color of the target. Can't make it happen on one, don't expect it for the other.

[Buckhead]

Any hunting rifle that consistently shoots anywhere close to 1 MOA will easily take game out to 500 yards.
Some people like to spend days and weeks at the loading bench and range to try and eek out the last possible fraction of accuracy. There is nothing wrong with that. I just don't do it for a hunting rifle.

[CptnBlues63]

Originally Posted by bpk1982

I'm curious about number of shots per group when developing loads for a hunting rifle. I always start with 3 shot groups. Typically I'll move up to 5 per group when I feel I'm close. More times then not, the first 3 shots are acceptable but with the inclusion of 4 and 5 the group spreads more then I'd like. Not always, but typically. Some times I'll scrap that load and start over. But it's got me thinking, for a hunting rifle, should I only be looking for 3 shot groups and if they spread after that, who cares? Curious what others are doing. I'm currently working on a tikka 7mm rem mag, H1000 and 162 eldx. For 3 shots it'll mostly print groups 1/2" to 1 & 1/8". That is acceptable to me for a hunting rifle. When I get into 5 or more shots into the group it'll spread to 1.5" plus. Heat must be a factor but I dont ever let the barrel get too hot. Thoughts?

Keep in mind the first CCB (cold clean barrel) round can, and will, differ in most cases from the rest of the shots in your group. I would suggest when doing your very first group with the CCB to discount that first round from the grouping. I find my CCB is always a little high and right from the rest of my rounds. I've double and triple checked using my lead sled to ensure maximum steadiness. It's good info to keep in mind in the field when I'm hunting. The longer the shot, the larger the difference from where I'm aiming to where it'll actually hit.

When target shooting I'll do two groups of 4 rounds (my magazines hold 4 rounds), then run the bore snake through and let it cool some before doing any more. Rinse and repeat. I can keep under 1" at 100 yards all day doing that and shooting off a rest or my bipod can keep it under 1/2 MOA at 500 yards.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

Any hunting rifle that consistently shoots anywhere close to 1 MOA will easily take game out to 500 yards.
Some people like to spend days and weeks at the loading bench and range to try and eek out the last possible fraction of accuracy. There is nothing wrong with that. I just don't do it for a hunting rifle.

Exactly. This type of development has nothing to do with a hunting rifle. Which is exactly what the OP is asking about. It has to do with obsessive issues (which I have) but nothing to do with practical hunting applications.

[stob]

Originally Posted by barsik

for a hunting rifle, a 3 shot group is probably good enough, but the real issue is where does the first shot out of a clean barrel go.

from a kimber (22-250) , jury barreled 6.5 x 55 (rem 700 action) and 2 h-s precision (243 & 308)... theygo into the roughly same hole as the following 4... the rest of my guns idk

[bpk1982]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Sometimes we tend to look in the wrong direction when trying to work up loads and shoot groups .
Personally speaking , I would be looking at my form if the first three shots are always consistent but anything after those tend to open up a group.

Proper form in the shot sequence is a part of shooting that is often overlooked and in some cases outright dismissed by some shooters but the fact remains that it is s very important part of the whole picture if one wants to progress as far as shooting goes .
Cat

I do try to keep things the same for each shot. Rifle on the rests the same, same shoulder pressure, etc...but I can definitely improve here...

[bpk1982]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the first three shots are good, and the next two shots are the issue, perhaps there rifle has a bedding issue.

The rifle is a t3. I wondered if it was a heating issue. I need to get back to the range and shoot allowing ample time between shots. Also, I'm curious what tikka means by a 3 shot MOA guarantee? Sako offers a 5 shot MOA guarantee. What is the difference here? Seems like they are saying tikkas can only shoot good 3 shot groups? But sako can do 5?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bpk1982

The rifle is a t3. I wondered if it was a heating issue. I need to get back to the range and shoot allowing ample time between shots. Also, I'm curious what tikka means by a 3 shot MOA guarantee? Sako offers a 5 shot MOA guarantee. What is the difference here? Seems like they are saying tikkas can only shoot good 3 shot groups? But sako can do 5?

I have owned four T -3 rifles, a CTR, two Stainless Varmints, and a Tactical, and all shot sub 1/2 moa for five shots. Two friends have a Sporter ,and a Supervarmint, and both are sub 1/2moa for five shots.

[bpk1982]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

Any hunting rifle that consistently shoots anywhere close to 1 MOA will easily take game out to 500 yards.
Some people like to spend days and weeks at the loading bench and range to try and eek out the last possible fraction of accuracy. There is nothing wrong with that. I just don't do it for a hunting rifle.

This is the goal for this rifle, a load that can reliably kill game at 500 yards. I'm not a long range shooter, mostly killing animals at half that or less. But I want the rifle to be capable if a opportunity arises.

[Don_Parsons]

I have a new to me used Remmy BDL that gets 5 minutes of Moose with worn out rifling...

Tomorrows plan is to squeeze it down to less than half of that...

Big long heavy boolitz might do the trick,,, of course I won't know this till I burn some powder. Ha.

Just the regular loading program,,, start in the middle of the load data and slowly incress the charge till I find a nice tight group...

Good times finding what dosen't work. Ha

👍

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by bpk1982

This is the goal for this rifle, a load that can reliably kill game at 500 yards. I'm not a long range shooter, mostly killing animals at half that or less. But I want the rifle to be capable if a opportunity arises.

\

That's a very realistic goal. It will take a bit of doing under field conditions but it can be done. Enjoy the ride!