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Old 11-02-2017, 08:19 AM
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Default Oil versus Windmills

Following up on the previous thread where the NDP said bird (and bat) deaths from windmills is negligible (in the many thousands).

http://calgarysun.com/news/local-new...6-e2c194dd0fb5
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:24 AM
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And then……..
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:42 AM
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Wind farms should be fined at the same rate as any other industry.

If they are given a quota of birds to kill that same quota should be applied to all industries.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:43 AM
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Wind farms should be fined at the same rate as any other industry.

If they are given a quota of birds to kill that same quota should be applied to all industries.
yep....if these fines were applied to Wind it would bankrupt them.
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:12 AM
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but it's not newsworthy unless they are covered in oil and all killed at once
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:17 PM
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Or if someone proves that renewables are not great...sue them.

http://environmentalprogress.org/big...100-renewables


Scientists for Debunking 100% Renewables
November 01, 2017






Environmental Progress Urges All Environmentalists and Scientists to Denounce Lawsuit as Scurrilous Attack on Science and Free Inquiry

By Michael Shellenberger

Stanford University professor Mark Z. Jacobson has filed a lawsuit, demanding $10 million in damages, against the peer-reviewed scientific journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) and a group of eminent scientists (Clack et al.) for their study showing that Jacobson made improper assumptions in order to claim that he had demonstrated U.S. energy could be provided exclusively by renewable energy, primarily wind, water, and solar.

Jacobson’s lawsuit is an appalling attack on free speech and scientific inquiry and we urge the courts to reject it as grossly unethical and without legal merit.

Further, we urge all environmentalists — including those that support the 100 percent renewables framework, such as Environmental Defense Fund, Sierra Club, and Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) — to join us in denouncing Jaconbson’s legal action.

What Jacobson has done is unprecedented. Scientific disagreements must be decided not in court but rather through the scientific process. We urge Stanford University, Stanford Alumni, and everyone who loves science and free speech to denounce this lawsuit.

The lawsuit rests on the claim that Clack et al. defamed Jacobson by calling his assumption that hydroelectricity could be significantly expanded a “modeling error.”

Environmental Progress weighed in on this controversy when Clack et al. published their article. In our view, it’s clear that Jacobson made a false assumption about the possibility of expanding U.S. hydroelectricity.

Jacobson’s assumption speaks to the essential fallacy of the 100 percent renewables proposal.

Renewables like solar and wind require vastly larger amounts of land and mining in order to produce power that is unreliable. Under the guise of protecting the environment, renewables destroy the environment.

One of the most environmentally devastating ways of producing electricity is with hydroelectric dams. While poor nations have a right to make cheap power from hydroelectricity, their environmental impact is enormous.

Jacobson’s proposal is to expand radically hydroelectric dams so they can support unreliable solar and wind energy. Such a proposal would devastate fish species even more than they have already been devastated.

The only way to promote such an environmentally devastating agenda is to claim it is good for the environment. That requires lying. Now that these lies have been exposed, it is revealing that Jacobson has resorted to a lawsuit that cannot and will not do anything more than intimidate his opponents.

Scientists and energy analysts should not be intimidated. We must stand up to bullies. We urge all lovers of nature and science to join us in denouncing this unprecedented and appalling attack on free inquiry.

I will add, finally, that this lawsuit saddens me personally. I debated Jacobson at UCLA and I believe he is a good person in the grip of a bad idea. I encourage him to drop the lawsuit.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:12 PM
jednastka jednastka is offline
 
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Default World Energy Usage

Here is a very interesting world energy usage chart. Two things; note that wind turbines and solar panels make up less than 1 % of energy supply, and that almost half of the "renewable" energy supply comes from burning wood!

Vic
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:10 AM
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Other than the fact that you guys think wind and solar are going to make you all lose your jobs why are you so afraid of the sun and the wind. I think our energy needs are becoming so great we need all of them. Don't fear this technology embrace it! Its not going to replace fossil fuels any time soon so why not have options? This tech has made it possible for people aroundvthe globe to have power when they don't have the access to fossil fuels. Cats and high rises take out more birds than oil and wind combined! Throw in house cats and nothing else matters.
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Old 11-03-2017, 03:00 PM
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Regardless
They should be on equal footing with other industries when it comes to penalties for killing wildlife or other environmental infractions.
I get a kick out of people who always go back to the “you oil guys are afraid blah blah blah” simply because we ask for a level playing field
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Old 11-03-2017, 03:02 PM
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And here I thought this thread was about the Oilers doing the Don Quixote thing, tilting at windmills, and making it to the playoffs maybe.....my error. Continue.
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Old 11-03-2017, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greendrake View Post
Other than the fact that you guys think wind and solar are going to make you all lose your jobs why are you so afraid of the sun and the wind. I think our energy needs are becoming so great we need all of them. Don't fear this technology embrace it! Its not going to replace fossil fuels any time soon so why not have options? This tech has made it possible for people aroundvthe globe to have power when they don't have the access to fossil fuels. Cats and high rises take out more birds than oil and wind combined! Throw in house cats and nothing else matters.
In all the threads concerning fossil fuels vs renewables I did not see anyone complain that they were going to lose their job. Most people just laugh at the hypocrisy of the left.
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:41 PM
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In all the threads concerning fossil fuels vs renewables I did not see anyone complain that they were going to lose their job. Most people just laugh at the hypocrisy of the left.
Then why is the response to wind or solar always negative?
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:47 PM
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If a guy could put decoys around them he could have his goose limit in seconds. hmmm. Probably plucked too.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:26 PM
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Then why is the response to wind or solar always negative?
Because the left wing nuts have made it a political issue, I don't want my tax dollars investing in those things. If they are a viable alternative, there would be companies tripping over each other to get them installed. They're not, so there isn't.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:45 PM
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Good idea. Treat them both the same. If there are birds killed at a windmill, shut it down. Do the same for a mine site. That should keep everyone happy. Right ?
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:47 PM
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Because the left wing nuts have made it a political issue, I don't want my tax dollars investing in those things. If they are a viable alternative, there would be companies tripping over each other to get them installed. They're not, so there isn't.
Do you really think there were no tax dollars spent getting the oil industry up and running ?
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:52 PM
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Do you really think there were no tax dollars spent getting the oil industry up and running ?







if that's all you have...thanks for the reply
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:59 PM
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if that's all you have...thanks for the reply
How about this ? Does this count as Alberta tax payers putting money into oil projects ?
http://calgaryherald.com/business/en...general-review
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:04 PM
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How about this ? Does this count as Alberta tax payers putting money into oil projects ?
http://calgaryherald.com/business/en...general-review
How about explaining to all the folks here the untold riches Alta will receive from the royalties the windmills will provide??...
I'm done with this thread....same old nonsense....
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:08 PM
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How about explaining to all the folks here the untold riches Alta will receive from the royalties the windmills will provide??...
I'm done with this thread....same old nonsense....
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jednastka View Post
Here is a very interesting world energy usage chart. Two things; note that wind turbines and solar panels make up less than 1 % of energy supply, and that almost half of the "renewable" energy supply comes from burning wood!

Vic
What bothers me is that burning wood is essentially carbon neutral and it is renewable.

Yet I don't get any rebate for heating with a wood stove, and by the looks of things our days of being allowed to have a wood stove might be numbered.
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Old 11-04-2017, 08:55 AM
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US subsidy comparison by energy type.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blog...dies-in-the-us


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Old 11-04-2017, 09:31 AM
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US subsidy comparison by energy type.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blog...dies-in-the-us


I have no doubt that there are more subsidies at this time for alternate power, but please don't try to say that oil and gas did not receive more than there fair share in the past. Sorry but it's time for a change.
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:48 AM
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Don’t let facts affect your argument. If renewables were left to stand on their own they would fail. Large capital expenses required to back up up unreliable inefficient renewables. Not saying I hate the planet but wind and solar are not the answer for this part of the world.
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:50 AM
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I have no doubt that there are more subsidies at this time for alternate power, but please don't try to say that oil and gas did not receive more than there fair share in the past. Sorry but it's time for a change.
You need to compare apples to oranges. Any subsidy in the past for oil and gas was received back by the government plus additional profit in spades. Oil and gas pays big big royalties back to Alberta. Wind farms don't.

Subsidies paid knew it was a direct investment.



Find me the amount of royalties paid by wind farms.
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You need to compare apples to oranges. Any subsidy in the past for oil and gas was received back by the government plus additional profit in spades. Oil and gas pays big big royalties back to Alberta. Wind farms don't.

Subsidies paid knew it was a direct investment.



Find me the amount of royalties paid by wind farms.
The switch to renewables is ultimately not based on money but on how you are going to answer your grandchildren on why you continued to ruin the environment for them when there were other viable options available?
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:26 AM
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The switch to renewables is ultimately not based on money but on how you are going to answer your grandchildren on why you continued to ruin the environment for them when there were other viable options available?
Back to an argument of ignore everything but my religion of GW.

If you truly cared about kids you would put all the money wasted on climate change and put it into world drinking water, healthcare and food production.

I know your type.

I know that you have not switched your home power to the higher priced green alternatives.

I know you are the type that wants everyone to waste their money first before you.

You are the type that preaches but doesn't really follow what you preach.



If "viable" means blowing all your growth on wasted over priced power...then move to Ontario and fill your boots.





http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...tudy-1.4212668

But hey. If it's all about the kids...you can't afford the power so less food on the table but you can get by.
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Last edited by Sundancefisher; 11-04-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:32 AM
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Back to an argument of ignore everything but my religion of GW.

If you truly cared about kids you would put all the money wasted on climate change and put it into world drinking water, healthcare and food production.

I know your type.

I know that you have not switched your home power to the higher priced green alternatives.

I know you are the type that wants everyone to waste their money first before you.

You are the type that preaches but doesn't really follow what you preach.



If "viable" means blowing all your growth on wasted over priced power...then move to Ontario and fill your boots.


Sorry but I find believing in ANY religion laughable. I do however believe in science.
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Old 11-04-2017, 12:18 PM
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Sorry but I find believing in ANY religion laughable. I do however believe in science.
Your religion of Global Warming is more about telling others what to do versus doing it yourself.

At least main stream religion has people practicing what they preach.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:39 PM
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Your religion of Global Warming is more about telling others what to do versus doing it yourself.

At least main stream religion has people practicing what they preach.
I've never met someone from a mainstream religion that practiced what they preached. That's why Catholic girls were so popular in high school
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