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08-01-2017, 01:28 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 8,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge
I hate to go a different direction but aiming every shot may be a clue to why he is only 10%.
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True, with a shot gun!.
BW
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08-01-2017, 01:30 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman
True, with a shot gun!.
BW
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Agree. but you still need to pick out a particular bird. Some guys just shoot into a covey or flock and hope for the best. It's easy to fall into this trap, especially starting out. I've been there. I think that's what he meant by "aiming".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate
In this case Oki has cut to to the exact heart of the matter!
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08-01-2017, 01:33 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge
I hate to go a different direction but aiming every shot may be a clue to why he is only 10%.
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websters dictionary defines aim as
to position or direct (a firearm, ball, arrow, rocket, etc.) so that, on firing or release, the discharged projectile will hit a target or travel along a certain path.
sounds correct to me.
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08-01-2017, 01:46 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
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I took his comment to mean that the guy was likely flock shooting. We had one fellow on a hunt that remarked that he got so excited , that he couldn't remember picking out a bird on the previous flock. But realizing that, he settled down and shot much better for the rest of the morning.
As far as aiming a shotgun is concerned, trying to use the beads like sights on a rifle is a great way to miss birds on the wing. And yet many people stick those hi viz strips on their guns and then they can't figure out why they are shooting worse than before. I helped one fellow to double his skeet score immediately, just by removing the two high viz straps he had attached to the rib.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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08-01-2017, 02:16 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
websters dictionary defines aim as
to position or direct (a firearm, ball, arrow, rocket, etc.) so that, on firing or release, the discharged projectile will hit a target or travel along a certain path.
sounds correct to me.
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I was talking good wing shooting and not Webster dictionary aiming.
It is just my observations but shooters who are very mechanical and aim or sight their gun to a precise point every shot are not as successful as those who have learned to mount and shoot by instinct. Learning an efficient mount and shoot is something that can be practiced on or off a clay range.
I am not saying that aiming a shot gun does not work. It does for some and some very good shooters do, but for the most part deliberate aiming and calculating a very precise point to lead often results in shooting where the bird was and not is. A trained instinctive point is light years ahead of a mentally calculated aim.
Ever seen this? A big rooster rockets up right in front of shooter who has all the time in the world on a target that looks like a big pumpkin and the shot seems to be made for a deliberate mount and aim and trigger pull. Boom! Just tail feathers and now the pumpkin is starting to make with the speed away. The shooter almost in desperation fires a second shot which dumps the bird.
The first shot missed probably because shooter stopped gun or did not lead enough even though he though he had. The second shot the shooter probably did not remember triggering the shot.
The second shot was maybe part desperate but what killed the bird but the part of the brain that figured this all out by instinct.
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08-01-2017, 02:19 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge
The first shot missed probably because shooter stopped gun or did not lead enough even though he though he had. The second shot the shooter probably did not remember triggering the shot.
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sounds like the person in your story has poor aim
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08-01-2017, 02:31 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
I took his comment to mean that the guy was likely flock shooting. We had one fellow on a hunt that remarked that he got so excited , that he couldn't remember picking out a bird on the previous flock. But realizing that, he settled down and shot much better for the rest of the morning.
As far as aiming a shotgun is concerned, trying to use the beads like sights on a rifle is a great way to miss birds on the wing. And yet many people stick those hi viz strips on their guns and then they can't figure out why they are shooting worse than before. I helped one fellow to double his skeet score immediately, just by removing the two high viz straps he had attached to the rib.
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I never even thought about flock shooting.
You are right about sights on shotguns.
More misses are caused by improper focus on the target than by not seeing the sights clearly.
Your eyes can not properly focus on the target if they are focused on the sights.
One can make a target or a bird seem to slow down by concentrating focus on bird or target.
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08-01-2017, 03:21 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge
I never even thought about flock shooting.
You are right about sights on shotguns.
More misses are caused by improper focus on the target than by not seeing the sights clearly.
Your eyes can not properly focus on the target if they are focused on the sights.
One can make a target or a bird seem to slow down by concentrating focus on bird or target.
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I don't even notice the beads on a shotgun when shooting it.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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08-01-2017, 03:35 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,553
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It been my experience that the guys who brag the most about their "orange disk shooting prowess" are the worst when it comes to live targets.....and the worst to share a blind with.
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08-01-2017, 03:40 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drake
It been my experience that the guys who brag the most about their "orange disk shooting prowess" are the worst when it comes to live targets.....and the worst to share a blind with.
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the guys who brag the most period are seldom any good. birds, clays, women all of it
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08-01-2017, 03:48 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
the guys who brag the most period are seldom any good. birds, clays, women all of it
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so true...
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08-01-2017, 04:56 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
the guys who brag the most period are seldom any good. birds, clays, women all of it
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So we should apply your thoughts on bragging to post #2 on this thread?
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08-01-2017, 05:06 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge
So we should apply your thoughts on bragging to post #2 on this thread?
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Interesting that you think a benchmark is bragging. Is it too high for You?
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08-01-2017, 05:46 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 8,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covey ridge
So we should apply your thoughts on bragging to post #2 on this thread?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
Interesting that you think a benchmark is bragging. Is it too high for You?
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Another somewhat interesting discussion that's gotten to the school yard level of pointing fingers and such immaturity.
Too bad a lot of good points were being made. Along with a few tips on becoming a better wing shooter!
Seems to be the AO way lately.
I'm out of this conversation.
BW
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08-01-2017, 05:48 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
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It seems to me that 50/50 shot success across the board of wingshooting is pretty darn good performance... far better than any average I have seen anyway. Eighty percent > Sptg Clay busting should be a breeze for them .. while being almost unachievable by most average shotgunners.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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08-01-2017, 06:09 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
Interesting that you think a benchmark is bragging. Is it too high for You?
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I have been legally shooting birds for at least 56 years. During that time I have shot trap, sporting clays and some skeet. I am a good wing shot and now that I am older, the only thing preventing me from bagging my limit is that I deliberately limit my bag and have nothing to prove. I often have 100% shoots but then I usually quit with 2 in the bag. I have had zero hunts as well usually when I don't get a shot, but never when I run out of ammo.
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08-01-2017, 06:17 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
It seems to me that 50/50 shot success across the board of wingshooting is pretty darn good performance... far better than any average I have seen anyway. Eighty percent > Sptg Clay busting should be a breeze for them .. while being almost unachievable by most average shotgunners.
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With the class system in sporting clays a shooter with average ability can be winning or placing in his/her class at most local shoots. All that is needed is a bit of good instruction and a bit of thoughtful practice.
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08-01-2017, 06:34 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
It seems to me that 50/50 shot success across the board of wingshooting is pretty darn good performance... far better than any average I have seen anyway. Eighty percent > Sptg Clay busting should be a breeze for them .. while being almost unachievable by most average shotgunners.
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50% overall would be higher than most shooters that I have seen, but some shooters do better than that. As for 80% at sporting clays, the average person that I have seen shoot has zero chance at doing that well. Of the non competitive shoots that I have been in (Delta Waterfowl, Ducks Unlimited , Fall Wind Up) at Beaverhill Sporting Clays, the average shooter was in the 50 to 60% range. Out of 100 or so shooters, less than 10% usually reach 80%, and there is sometimes one or two exceptional shooters that make 90%. Most people have no idea how tough some targets are. How often does a hunter stand on a bridge and shoot a double passing in opposite directions below them? There is one target that comes in from about 80 yards, passes out of sight behind willows, then reappears for less than two seconds before diving into the bank at around 45 yards. Out of 55 shooters, each shooting at it three times, that target was only broken by three people during one shoot, and each shooter only broke it once. If you can hit that target consistently, a bird that presents a target that is so much larger than the side profile of a clay, would be easy. Of course there are also some easier targets, some very easy ones as well, or the percentages would be much lower. Both trap and skeet are much easier to shoot, but they are much more affordable to shoot, so most people shoot trap or skeet the majority of the time. Given the choice, I would shoot sporting clays several times per week, because it helps me to improve my shooting more than any other discipline, and I would like to get much better at this discipline, but the cost is more than I am willing to spend to do that, so I shoot skeet more often.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
Last edited by elkhunter11; 08-01-2017 at 06:52 PM.
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08-01-2017, 06:36 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: near Calgary
Posts: 6,638
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I agree with bigwoodsman
Would have been an interesting topic until the "mine is bigger than yours" "picking" match started. My experience is different and I have been fortunate enough to shoot with world champions, train with world champion carvers and taxidermists as well as my current hunting/shooting partner is ranked in the top ten in north america in sporting clays. Each and every one of them was modest to a fault about their abilities as a shooter which brings me to another conclusion. there are only two types of wingshooters 1. those that are learning and admit they are not very good 2. everyone else!
I have seen championship skeet shooters miss 6 rising roosters in a row on one day (remember how easy these planted birds are?) and I have seen many "accomplished" hunters who claim clay shooting is a waste of time since it is too predictable shoot 21 out of 72 targets. The fact remains you will be good at what you know and do regularly and while you think that "shooting skills" has nothing to do with hunting the name for that non shooting skills group is usually "bird watchers".
Only on AO could we divide and conquer once again.
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a hunting we will go!!!!!!
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08-01-2017, 07:30 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwbirds
Would have been an interesting topic until the "mine is bigger than yours" "picking" match started. My experience is different and I have been fortunate enough to shoot with world champions, train with world champion carvers and taxidermists as well as my current hunting/shooting partner is ranked in the top ten in north america in sporting clays. Each and every one of them was modest to a fault about their abilities as a shooter which brings me to another conclusion. there are only two types of wingshooters 1. those that are learning and admit they are not very good 2. everyone else!
I have seen championship skeet shooters miss 6 rising roosters in a row on one day (remember how easy these planted birds are?) and I have seen many "accomplished" hunters who claim clay shooting is a waste of time since it is too predictable shoot 21 out of 72 targets. The fact remains you will be good at what you know and do regularly and while you think that "shooting skills" has nothing to do with hunting the name for that non shooting skills group is usually "bird watchers".
Only on AO could we divide and conquer once again.
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The only thing in this post that interests me is who your current hunting/ shooting partner is ? If he is top ten in North America I am sure he won't mind if you drop his name.
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08-01-2017, 08:23 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: near Calgary
Posts: 6,638
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I wouldnt do that to my worst enemy on a public forum
Check who is first in Canada right now and considering he is not shooting many US tournaments since living in Calgary since 2010 and was still ranked #6 in north america in 2013 and 8th in 2015 you will figure it out.
There is no doubt he can shoot having dropped 27 of 51 roosters in Brooks two years ago on a team of 5 shooters including several triples and one quad that I witnessed.
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a hunting we will go!!!!!!
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08-01-2017, 08:26 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lougheed,Ab.
Posts: 12,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwbirds
Would have been an interesting topic until the "mine is bigger than yours" "picking" match started. My experience is different and I have been fortunate enough to shoot with world champions, train with world champion carvers and taxidermists as well as my current hunting/shooting partner is ranked in the top ten in north america in sporting clays. Each and every one of them was modest to a fault about their abilities as a shooter which brings me to another conclusion. there are only two types of wingshooters 1. those that are learning and admit they are not very good 2. everyone else!
I have seen championship skeet shooters miss 6 rising roosters in a row on one day (remember how easy these planted birds are?) and I have seen many "accomplished" hunters who claim clay shooting is a waste of time since it is too predictable shoot 21 out of 72 targets. The fact remains you will be good at what you know and do regularly and while you think that "shooting skills" has nothing to do with hunting the name for that non shooting skills group is usually "bird watchers".
Only on AO could we divide and conquer once again.
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^^^^This!!!
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The future ain't what it used to be - Yogi Berra
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08-01-2017, 09:44 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Morinville
Posts: 898
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I'm all for ethical hunting. It's paramount, but with some attitudes here a guy needs to avidly shoot and practice for 20 years to hit the high standards of some.
Not really encouraging for up and coming hunters.
I don't take stupid shots. I'll leave a shell in the tube if needed. I focus on one bird till it falls. I practice as much as I can. But I can't shoot like a guy who has 20 years of practice on me, and probably won't until I get another 20 years under my belt.
There's ethical. And then there's elitism.
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08-01-2017, 10:16 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: near Calgary
Posts: 6,638
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Bob
I dont think it is elitism at all. We have so called hunters questioning the opinions of some of the top ranked shooters in Alberta. If you don't know the real names behind the user ids of guys like elk hunter11, covey ridge cowtown bill and brianedward you should maybe do a little research on 95 plus ranked percentage shooters in alberta/ I know it is only clays ranking but I have seen a couple of them take a natural triple on rising huns or pheasant and the odd time a quad. Talk is cheap but the clays ranking as well as hunting success proves ability.
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a hunting we will go!!!!!!
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08-01-2017, 10:49 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Morinville
Posts: 898
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I'm not referring to these guys, or anyone's talents. Or doubting them as true.
My point is, since I'm not an elite level competitive shooter, should I stop hunting?
If that's the case then 95% of hunters out there should stop and forget taking your kids out.
The 80% success rate, to me is high for most water fowlers wing shooting, and if that's the acceptable level. There won't be many shooters out there.
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08-01-2017, 11:00 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNewton
I'm not referring to these guys, or anyone's talents. Or doubting them as true.
My point is, since I'm not an elite level competitive shooter, should I stop hunting?
If that's the case then 95% of hunters out there should stop and forget taking your kids out.
The 80% success rate, to me is high for most water fowlers wing shooting, and if that's the acceptable level. There won't be many shooters out there.
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Nobody is saying that if you can't average 80%, you shouldn't be hunting. Some people have high standards for them self, but they don't expect everyone to have the same standards. What has been pointed out though, is that if you are missing more than you are hitting, there are options , other than continuing to miss more than you are hitting. As I posted, even a couple of months of shooting skeet once per week, can make a huge difference. It can easily reduce your misses by half or more. If you can't spare the time for two months, go once per week for a month, and it will still be a benefit.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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08-01-2017, 11:09 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
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I usually only take two shots max at each bird and when I am shooting the muzzle loaders it's all I take fir about 5 minutes each time anyway because I have to reload !!
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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08-01-2017, 11:15 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Morinville
Posts: 898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Nobody is saying that if you can't average 80%, you shouldn't be hunting. Some people have high standards for them self, but they don't expect everyone to have the same standards. What has been pointed out though, is that if you are missing more than you are hitting, there are options , other than continuing to miss more than you are hitting. As I posted, even a couple of months of shooting skeet once per week, can make a huge difference. It can easily reduce your misses by half or more. If you can't spare the time for two months, go once per week for a month, and it will still be a benefit.
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Nobody has said it. But it seemed to me this thread took a turn. Once the words ethical and non ethical came into play. When I would venture a guess the average real life numbers are closer to 50% on real birds in the field.
Of coarse everyone should try to better them selves. But it's a slippery slope to start questioning ones ethics. that's my only point. It's too subjective. No one will hit 100%, and anything less is open to judgement. I personally don't think there is an acceptable number, if you shoot 95%, would you say "good enough" and stop trying to improve? Makes no sense.
I simply practice as much as I can. Limit my shots to my abilities as best I can. I KNOW I'm not comfortable shooting a deer at even 300 yards. So I have a easy ethical immediate solution. Don't take the shot.
I just find the whole thing silly to discuss, as anything less than perfect has room for improvement... and should be improved upon.
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08-01-2017, 11:49 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: near Calgary
Posts: 6,638
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Bob you already know me
My 20 year old son was becoming frustrated with his lack of success with duck and goose shooting. Within one year of shooting sporting clays he was hitting 75% of ducks and geese. Sure he felt his percentage could be better but 75% was enough to keep him at the sport. We had a guide and local pay him the ultimate compliment in Stettler a couple years ago. 'Who is that knocking those geese down over there"
Talk is cheap shooting skills rule
Rob
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a hunting we will go!!!!!!
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08-02-2017, 06:45 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 817
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Vely Intelesting
Firstly having a thread on personal abilities in the field
And not expecting a ****ing match is pretty unrealistic .
I have had the pleasure of field hunting numerous times
with a father / son team that are fantastic trap shooters .
The father was on the Canadian Pan Am trap team twice .
The son is current Canadian overall champion and world
champion . Their prowess in the field is something to see .
I have hunted with good trap shooters who
are abysmal waterfowl shooters and worse Uplanders.
I am a terrible trap and sporting clays shooter . I have to
shoot a few birds to keep the dog happy . One of my partners
And I will have our wives start birding this year . Both woman
were shot gunners in their youth . Should be interesting .
I have shot with guys that no matter what comes in they shot
it . But only once .
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