Traplines Over Priced - Page 2

mark-edmonton · #31 03-22-2012, 09:21 AM

I don't think anyone is painting a broad stroke claiming all traplines are like this. Srd could regulate it properly if they had the man power. Maybe a quota minimum would help but no one can guarantee a fur harvest. Perhaps a trap line price cap is the way to go. $8000 for a cabin and certain price max per township. Current system is not ensuring lines are not being used for intended purpose

houndsmen · #32 03-22-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 357xp

i agree there is alot of this going on and it aint right

but.............dont paint every single trapline black because of it...there are some trappers that put alot of effort into there lines

GREAT! Sure would be refreshing to run into a guy like that!

Don't tell me to snap out of it because there's a few good guys doing a great job in the province. The majority of traplines are a joke around here. Period.

The few resident trappers are killing more wolves simply because were sick of our livestock getting toren apart while "trapper Bob" try's to balance on his bar stool telling western's from back in the day.

This isn't a "one bad apple" deal.

jim summit · #33 03-22-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houndsmen

GREAT! Sure would be refreshing to run into a guy like that!

Don't tell me to snap out of it because there's a few good guys doing a great job in the province. The majority of traplines are a joke around here. Period.

The few resident trappers are killing more wolves simply because were sick of our livestock getting toren apart while "trapper Bob" try's to balance on his bar stool telling western's from back in the day.

This isn't a "one bad apple" deal.

You just ran into a guy like that, 357xp......

Hard working trapper that traps because he enjoys trapping, not for a hunting cabin.

I am not say $50,000 plus is okay for a trapline. Most active traplines have an actual value under $30,000. A price cap per township might work good.

KegRiver · #34 03-22-2012, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim summit

Most active traplines have an actual value under $30,000. A price cap per township might work good.

It seems that a lot of folks don't understand the rules.
You can not sell a trapline, only the improvements to that line, IE cabin, boat docks, trails.

The line belongs to the government, not to the trapper. And with that, SRD can take a line away from a trapper at any time, for any reason, with no compensation or explanation, and the trapper has no legal recourse. I know people who had it happen to them.

That is why most trappers do not spend a lot of money on a trapline. They may sell improvements, if SRD approves it, but there is no legal status of ownership to those improvements.

There are no guarantees.
If a person looses their line for any reason, they can not sell anything on it, or anything they did to it.

Thus investing a lot of time or money into improvements is a big gamble that few care to take. We do what we have to do to make our lines usable to us, and no more.
Only a fool or an outfitter invests tens of thousands into something that they DO NOT OWN.

Always remember, a trapper is NOT allowed to sell the trapping rights, the trapping area, or the existing improvements that he did not personally build, pay for, or improve in some way. In other words, he can NOT sell, an existing cabin that he did not purchase off the previous trapper, cutlines, road access built by others such as logging companies, the oilfield, or other like things.

A road close to a trapline may make it worth more to a buyer, but the trapper can not increase his price because of that.

At least that is how it is supposed to work.

As I said, when I started trapping, a trapper could not sell anything that was part of the line, whether he built it, developed it, or planted it.

He could only sell what he could carry off the line, the rest remained for the next trappers benefit.

No one I know had a problem with that. We developed our lines for our benefit, not for resale.
The cost of those developments was part of our day to day cost of operating and we figured it into our costs.

Again, that is why we didn't spend a lot on our lines, #1 we couldn't afford it, #2 we were resourceful enough to do what we needed to do, without a lot of expense. #3 we trapped to support ourselves and our families.

IT WAS NOT RECREATION. It was survival.
And it was NOT an investment.

It wasn't then and it SHOULDN'T be now.

Like so many other business men, trappers used to stand or fall by their own strength and we were proud of that.
Then like a lot of business men some of us decided that the government should guarantee us a profit, or at least, no losses.

Those people were not true trappers, they were opportunists. They got into trapping for the profit and cried like babies when they didn't make as much as they thought they would.

That is not something, I as a trapper am proud of or want any part of.
I am old school. Any improvements I made to my line, and I did make some, got passed on to the next trapper. He will need all the help he can get.

And that is what being old school is all about. It's doing the right thing, even when there is NO profit in it.

Maybe we need more old school and less profiteering.

steve · #35 03-22-2012, 08:24 PM

Ive also heard that 20 years ago the goverment took back a large number of RFMA's. What is being done with these?

Would be nice to obtain permission to trap them at least.

Bigbuzz · #36 03-22-2012, 08:37 PM

I had a trapline in Ontario, that was in the 80's and fur prices were good. I did not pay a penny for it, applied in the process where the trapline goes to the most qualified person. That process of trapper selection was based upon a number of priorities, experience, proximity to ones home,education(fur harvest and conservation courses), membership in a trappers council etc.The previous trapper had passed away and there was not much in the way of assets(improvements) and it was just the 45sq miles of crown land.If there were cabins, bridges and equipment the value would be assessed and a price put on those improvements. The quota system there worked very well, it prevented lazy trappers from sitting on or speculating on traplines,it also prevented over harvest and insured that the harvest of those furs was ethical and well handled generating the best prices possible for the resourse.I don't know a great deal about the Alberta system but the BC system allows sales of traplines and outfitter areas and I don't think that is the way to go. Fur prices are relatively low and it requires a great deal of hard work to break even little own make a profit. I see two groups involved, hobbyist who write off snowmachines and atvs and a few very dedicated people who are keeping the skills alive enjoying a lifestyle. To allow the sales of these rights does little to promote conservation and fur management and prevents those dedicated few from participating.

KegRiver · #37 03-23-2012, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigbuzz

I had a trapline in Ontario, that was in the 80's and fur prices were good. I did not pay a penny for it, applied in the process where the trapline goes to the most qualified person. That process of trapper selection was based upon a number of priorities, experience, proximity to ones home,education(fur harvest and conservation courses), membership in a trappers council etc.The previous trapper had passed away and there was not much in the way of assets(improvements) and it was just the 45sq miles of crown land.If there were cabins, bridges and equipment the value would be assessed and a price put on those improvements. The quota system there worked very well, it prevented lazy trappers from sitting on or speculating on traplines,it also prevented over harvest and insured that the harvest of those furs was ethical and well handled generating the best prices possible for the resourse.I don't know a great deal about the Alberta system but the BC system allows sales of traplines and outfitter areas and I don't think that is the way to go. Fur prices are relatively low and it requires a great deal of hard work to break even little own make a profit. I see two groups involved, hobbyist who write off snowmachines and atvs and a few very dedicated people who are keeping the skills alive enjoying a lifestyle. To allow the sales of these rights does little to promote conservation and fur management and prevents those dedicated few from participating.

Well said.

That WAS the way it was here 20 years ago. Then some individuals decided that they had so much invested, that they had to be able to recover those costs, and this is where it has lead us.

But, it's not as bad as some suggest. Yes there are some who sell for ridiculously high prices, but not all lines garner that kind of interest.
Location is everything when it comes to price.

There are lines that are available, but no one wants them, because they aren't good hunting territories. Every time the subject comes up here, there are people who claim to want a line, but more then one has contacted me and when they found out where my line was, they lost all interest.

Maybe because they really want to trap and they realize that my line would be to expensive for them to access, and not very productive. Maybe they didn't really want to trap after all.

Bottom line, there are lines out there that are available. If a person is willing to put in the time to find them. Most aren't.

There are good reasons why some lines are not being trapped.
Trapping does not pay, and real trappers know that. It's only the newcomers and the outfitters that are looking for lines.

Remember that photo I posted. That fur was taken on a line my buddy acquired recently. four years ago in fact. He could have had my line, but it was too far for him to travel, and still make a profit.

My friend just acquired my old line, for nothing. I had offers, from outfitters. But not one from a trapper, until my friend asked about it.

TRAPPER92 · #38 03-23-2012, 06:58 AM

I sent a email to the minister on this subject a while back, here's what he had to say:

Thank you for your email of January 8,2012 regarding the value of assets on traplines. I am pleased to provide the following infonnation.
When trappers sell the assets on their trap lines, the values are detennined by the open market. The price a trapper can obtain is a reflection of the price a buyer is willing to pay for the assets. The assets on the trapline are being sold, not the public land, which remains the property of the Crown. When trapping licence holders wish to cancel their licences, Sustainable Resource Development reviews and approves the sale or transfer of these traplines, but does not determine the value of the assets.
We recognize that this system has flaws and we have been working with the Alberta Trappers' Association (ATA) on ways to improve the system. Currently, we are completing standard conditions for trapper cabins. We are also looking at implementing trapline management plans, which should help keep trap lines in the hands of active trappers.
Thank you for writing to inquire about this matter.
Sincerely,
Frank Oberle

IHUNT · #39 03-23-2012, 07:56 AM

Traplise are WAY WAY over priced! I mean how does someone thats just starting out and wants to trap afford a $300,000.00 tapeline????? I sold my line to a buddy of mine for $10G. It had 2 cadins on it and and the trappping is very good. Thats it thats all 10,000.00!!!!! Not 300,000.00 people are out to luch i think to be asking this much for a line. Maybe it comes with a float plane or a chopper for that price.

357xp · #40 03-23-2012, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHUNT

Traplise are WAY WAY over priced! I mean how does someone thats just starting out and wants to trap afford a $300,000.00 tapeline????? I sold my line to a buddy of mine for $10G. It had 2 cadins on it and and the trappping is very good. Thats it thats all 10,000.00!!!!! Not 300,000.00 people are out to luch i think to be asking this much for a line. Maybe it comes with a float plane or a chopper for that price.

and that my friend is exactly what farming is nowadays, same deal. pay $ 100 000.00 + for a 1/4 of sticks, spend another 100g's to clear then its ready for farming......o right, u need eqipment yet...u get my drift. but, if the fur prices keep up and lots hard work and a good line, id venture to say there IS profit to be made trapping

moose maniac · #41 03-23-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 357xp

and that my friend is exactly what farming is nowadays, same deal. pay $ 100 000.00 + for a 1/4 of sticks, spend another 100g's to clear then its ready for farming......o right, u need eqipment yet...u get my drift. but, if the fur prices keep up and lots hard work and a good line, id venture to say there IS profit to be made trapping

??This is a thread about trapline prices what the hell does that have to do with farming??

jim summit · #42 03-23-2012, 11:54 AM

Personal opinion............. Me and my partner have paid for a line-(Cabin, sleds, traps, equip) for the amount of $ that we can take off in fur in 3-5 seasons. As stated in the trappers manual, trapping is a business and should be treated so, it is not recreation like fishing or hunting. Writing off equipment for trapping is allowable if you have the intent of making a PROFIT. So that being said, a larger trapline has more value than a one township line, as there more area to trap, resulting in more fur, even if you can not sell the actual line......up here 100 miles south of the NWT/AB border, there are alot of traplines/assets being sold for actual value, which is why I don't see as big a problem as you guys down south ED./Calgary area.

Okotokian · #43 03-23-2012, 12:07 PM

Could anyone answer a dummy's question here? Speak slowly. LOL

Someone mentioned either a trapper or an outfitter buying a trapline. It is my understanding (limited as it is) that a trapper doesnt own the land or have any right to keep people off it. He just has a right to trap the area. IF that is the case, what benefit would it be to an outfitter to buy it? He couldn't keep other hunters out of the area. Or do I have it wrong?

TRAPPER92 · #44 03-23-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Could anyone answer a dummy's question here? Speak slowly. LOL

Someone mentioned either a trapper or an outfitter buying a trapline. It is my understanding (limited as it is) that a trapper doesnt own the land or have any right to keep people off it. He just has a right to trap the area. IF that is the case, what benefit would it be to an outfitter to buy it? He couldn't keep other hunters out of the area. Or do I have it wrong?

They buy it so that they can hunt from a cabin!

braggadoe · #45 03-23-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRAPPER92

I sent a email to the minister on this subject a while back, here's what he had to say:

Thank you for your email of January 8,2012 regarding the value of assets on traplines. I am pleased to provide the following infonnation.
When trappers sell the assets on their trap lines, the values are detennined by the open market. The price a trapper can obtain is a reflection of the price a buyer is willing to pay for the assets. The assets on the trapline are being sold, not the public land, which remains the property of the Crown. When trapping licence holders wish to cancel their licences, Sustainable Resource Development reviews and approves the sale or transfer of these traplines, but does not determine the value of the assets.
We recognize that this system has flaws and we have been working with the Alberta Trappers' Association (ATA) on ways to improve the system. Currently, we are completing standard conditions for trapper cabins. We are also looking at implementing trapline management plans, which should help keep trap lines in the hands of active trappers.
Thank you for writing to inquire about this matter.
Sincerely,
Frank Oberle

Thank you for posting this, what it show's is that, if your waiting for the government to solve the "over priced trapline" problem. your going to have to wait a long,long time.

the value of the line is in the ASSETS. in an open market the assets could be anything. like it or not, it's between the buyer and the seller and srd doesn't determine a value. it's 2012 and that's the way it is.

whether its 3000, 30 000 or 300 000 it's between the buyer and the seller. and not any of mine or anyone else's business. unless i was a buyer or seller, i'm not.

if your looking for a line and find one that is over priced. Don't buy it! just like every thing else in life. if you want to get in the game, your going to have to buy one. life is short.

as for outfitters, anyone can hunt crown land, they may just want to trap when there guiding season is done.

Brian Bildson · #46 03-23-2012, 04:30 PM

The ATA came up with the solution years ago. In order to renew your license ASRD would have to confirm you meet the definition of active trapper. The definition included effort, financial return, and filing an annual management plan. Seems simple but it would cull out non-trappers over time.

I believe there are elements within ASRD that recognize that the cabin issue could be the tool to remove RFMA's off the landscape. RFMA's are a thorn in the side of Alberta Land division and some would like to see them gone. They already have the tools to clean up the BS. Don't renew licenses for those who are habitually not trapping. Period.

remington17 · #47 03-23-2012, 05:08 PM

Braggadoe, I don't think your understanding the issue some of us are having with the trapline price issue. The issue been that a lot of high prices lines are bought up by people who want a private get away spot and not a full time trapping area. I guess I have no problem with a well to do person buying a line and trapping it properly.

My original thread is titled "traplines overpriced" by which I mean they for the most part are priced out of the reach of a lot of full time trappers. Some years they make a profit and some not. It's hard to obtain a RFMA worth 50 60 or 100,000 dollars with very slim to no profit margins.

The problem is letting the market dictate what prices will be. Now I know that we here in Alberta don't take kindly to some of our Eastern neighbors ideas but following is a link to Quebec's rules on traplines. I like it. Especially what they require to transfer traplines. Please check it out and let me know what you think?

http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/english/p...ions/index.asp

braggadoe · #48 03-23-2012, 05:50 PM

i do understand, i've wanted my own trapline ever since i was a kid. i looked for a line for 15 years. trapping as a resident trapper all the while. looked into 15-20 different lines in AB,BC the yukon and while working in alaska i thought about moving up there and trapping, but didn't like the free/for all idea. put boots on the ground on 7 different lines checking them out. trapped as a jr on the line i eventually bought. i spent about the same amount of money looking for a line, as the line cost. with alot of research, i was able to get a great line. payed for itself in 5-6 seasons. that was when fur prices where low. now that they are up again. lot's of people want them, the prices are what they are. supply and demand.

it is a shame that some go untrapped, and hopefully that can be worked out. i doubt it will lower the prices thou.

the quebec thing looks like a good idea, but that not how it is here.