Traplines Over Priced

[remington17]

Kijiji trapline for sale near Grande Cache. Price...$300,000. Is this reasonable? No! I thought lines were supposed to be sold for gear, cabin costs, trail improvements. This is crazy.

I hope the ATA gets the implementation of their DAO plan in place soon. I am so tired of unused lines and even badly under utilized lines that are bought for recreation and speculation. I honestly think that Ontarios quota system might be the answer. Catch at least 75% of your set quota or risk losing your line.

I love trapping and support fully all trappers. The hobby trapper with a line that might get used a week or two a season is abusing the registered trapline system Excuses fly....work, family, laziness, etc. A registered line requires commitment, management and a lot of work. People who want a "cabin" to hunt or fish out of should set up a nice wall tent instead of buying a trapline so they can have their bit of paradise.

Just an angry rant. Sorry to offend.

[dale7637]

I completely agree with you. I have been looking to buy a line for some time, but it is plain ridiculous what people want for some.
I have no problem with paying what things are worth, but some of these prices are out of line.

I want a line to trap, not to hunt ans have a cabin.

I have a line that borders our home quarter. I know the whole line like the back of my hand. It hasn't been trapped once in th past 6 years. Yet the meatball that owns it wont sell, let alone bring on a junior partner.

I find that ridiculous. Srd should step in and tell these clowns to use them or lose them.

[just_dave]

Don't use it, lose it. Should be the way. And I thought it was.

[KegRiver]

It is outrageous. And we have outfitters to thank for that.
No trapper can afford that sort of price.

Just a few months ago, two trappers got in a bidding war for an open trapline.
They were at $20,000 when I told them they were nuts. No trapline is worth that much these days. Damn I wish it were, I could do a lot with $20,000 right now.

It's a catch 22. Sell to a real trapper for half what I have into the line, or sell to an outfitter for ten times that amount.
Problem is, I have mirrors in this house. I couldn't stand to shave if I sold to an outfitter.

[outdoorsmen101]

Originally Posted by remington17

Kijiji trapline for sale near Grande Cache. Price...$300,000. Is this reasonable? No! I thought lines were supposed to be sold for gear, cabin costs, trail improvements. This is crazy.

I hope the ATA gets the implementation of their DAO plan in place soon. I am so tired of unused lines and even badly under utilized lines that are bought for recreation and speculation. I honestly think that Ontarios quota system might be the answer. Catch at least 75% of your set quota or risk losing your line.

I love trapping and support fully all trappers. The hobby trapper with a line that might get used a week or two a season is abusing the registered trapline system Excuses fly....work, family, laziness, etc. A registered line requires commitment, management and a lot of work. People who want a "cabin" to hunt or fish out of should set up a nice wall tent instead of buying a trapline so they can have their bit of paradise.

Just an angry rant. Sorry to offend.

No offense taken but I wish people would not lump all trappers into the category portrayed on this thread. There are alot of guys that have invested some major dollars into their lines in order to be able to trap them, and put alot of time into their trapping activities to manage their line properly. (I'm not talking about the fancy large cabin propaganda)

All the guys posting the widespread misuse of cabins how about posting the RFMA number on which this occurs insteading of just spouting inuendo's.

The DAO will never happen as it lacks a viable source of funding to sustain itself. It has been through three Ministers now and this will be the fourth, so what does that tell you? In any case SRD would have any final say on whether a line would be forfeited and in essence the ATA would have no power to enforce anything.

Also I think you would find a fair number of Kijiji ads for a wide range of items that are totally overpriced. Sounds like this particular ad has been around a while.

[jim summit]

Originally Posted by outdoorsmen101

No offense taken but I wish people would not lump all trappers into the category portrayed on this thread. There are alot of guys that have invested some major dollars into their lines in order to be able to trap them, and put alot of time into their trapping activities to manage their line properly. (I'm not talking about the fancy large cabin propaganda)

All the guys posting the widespread misuse of cabins how about posting the RFMA number on which this occurs insteading of just spouting inuendo's.

The DAO will never happen as it lacks a viable source of funding to sustain itself. It has been through three Ministers now and this will be the fourth, so what does that tell you? In any case SRD would have any final say on whether a line would be forfeited and in essence the ATA would have no power to enforce anything.

Also I think you would find a fair number of Kijiji ads for a wide range of items that are totally overpriced. Sounds like this particular ad has been around a while.

X2 Well said

[KegRiver]

Just for those who haven't been around all that long.
There was a time, not so long ago, when you could not sell a trapline or ask for anything for development, IE cabin, trails ext.

When I started trapping, traplines were let go, not sold.
About the only control a trapper had over the process was, if he had a junior partner, he could request the line go to his partner. SRD did not have to abide by that request, but they usually did.
He could sell his hardware of course. But not the line, or improvements he made to that line. As a rule there wasn't much that was worth selling.
Trails were cut by Sismic companies, (cutlines) and cabins were crude affairs built from logs cut on site. The cash put into those lines was little to nothing.

So today we have trappers building cabins from sawmill lumber, that's his choice. As for maintaining trails. Thats part of trapping.
We trap for the fur, not for profit from developments. And that should have never changed.

What the new policy has done, is put traplines out of reach of the new people wanting to get into trapping.

We should go back to the way it was. No selling of any trap line or the improvements to it.

[jim summit]

I don't feel the same way Keg. We run our line like a business, and any time you spend money into a business to make it more efficient, it has more value. I feel a trapline with established trails, bridges over creeks, bait boxes installed, plus traps and a cabin that meets trapline code has more value than a overgrown line with a falling apart log cabin. I would have a hard time giving the line away after all this labour to make it usable, and let the next guy pick up from here.... With the current fur prices there is no reason not too trap, a guy can actually make some money.

[remington17]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Just for those who haven't been around all that long.
There was a time, not so long ago, when you could not sell a trapline or ask for anything for development, IE cabin, trails ext.

When I started trapping, traplines were let go, not sold.
About the only control a trapper had over the process was, if he had a junior partner, he could request the line go to his partner. SRD did not have to abide by that request, but they usually did.
He could sell his hardware of course. But not the line, or improvements he made to that line. As a rule there wasn't much that was worth selling.
Trails were cut by Sismic companies, (cutlines) and cabins were crude affairs built from logs cut on site. The cash put into those lines was little to nothing.

So today we have trappers building cabins from sawmill lumber, that's his choice. As for maintaining trails. Thats part of trapping.
We trap for the fur, not for profit from developments. And that should have never changed.

What the new policy has done, is put traplines out of reach of the new people wanting to get into trapping.

We should go back to the way it was. No selling of any trap line or the improvements to it.

Well said. Traplines now seem to be treated as real estate investments. There are 3 "partners" near Buck Lake who a few years ago bought a "trapline" near Nordegg. One of them traps part time. It was expensive and they bought it for a hunting territory with no intention of trapping it properly. I know 2 of the 3 fellows and I like them. I don't like what they did or that it is allowed to happen.

In regards to the DAO, if you truly want RFMA's to be managed and trapped properly, as was the vision for the system, then the DAO is the future and should be supported. I know the pressure on SRD against taking traplines away must be intense as big money usually exerts such power. The squeaky wheel gets the grease as the rest of us who think charging $50,000, $100,000, or $300,000 for a 200 square foot cabin and 10 miles of trails is completely out of line. This is crown land, not your personal property. Be thankful you are allowed to do what you love and it is NOT the trappers who have invested sweat, money, and having to endure years of horrible fur prices that I am against. Far from it.

[catnthehat]

When my brothr sold his he sold it with a ton f eqipment that included everything one needed to trap, basically a turn-key operation with quads, sleds, the works, wit roqad access as well, to the main cabin.
It was well worth the price he charged.
Cat

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It was well worth the price he charged.
Cat

Thats what everyone selling something says to the people that are buying. Yet not everyone can agree... hmm

Trapping equipment isnt very useful without the trapline, so there should be no surprises to the fact that some sales have had value placed on the tangibles. This is what started the mess, now old quads and traps are worth $300K because "its well worth it". You decide.

[DoUCWhatIC]

Trapping has gone from a commercial enterprise to a lifestyle choice that only the rich can afford. Obviously that is a broad statement and certainly doesn't apply to all the trapping industry! Unfortunately, it is much more truthful today than it ever was. Many RFMAs are being used inproperly and for the wrong reasons (in my opinion).

This is a failing of our provincial government! It is responsible for wildlife management (including furbearers) and public land use (including trapping cabins). The provincial government has caused this problem by ignoring the industry for so long. Now it is more problematic than ever becasue of the money involved!

Hopefully it will change! The government has to take responsibility somewhere down the road!

I would be very cautious about purchasing the right to harvest fur (and of course the improvements) on public land right now. If and when the government decides to do its job the prices of RFMAs should drop drastically! Unfortunately, in this new age if litigation, the RFMA holders would probably sue the government...and win! If the governemt wanted to actually manage this they would probably have to buy out the trappers much like they did the commercial fishermen! All because of their failure to manage this!

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by remington17

In regards to the DAO, if you truly want RFMA's to be managed and trapped properly, as was the vision for the system, then the DAO is the future and should be supported.

You are so correct with that statement. My understanding, however, is that the new minister has NOT ruled out the DAO. However, his tenure may be short, so we'll have to wait and see what the next minister brings to the table, if indeed Oberle is moved up, or off, the ladder.

[outdoorsmen101]

Not according to two MLA's. The DAO is not happening and apparently especially under Redford.

[KegRiver]

Selling traps and other equipment has always been an option and I doubt anyone would object to that. For most trappers, that would amount to a 8 to 10 thousand, on the used market.
Mind you, he wouldn't likely sell it for that much to someone taking over his line. After all, SRD won't allow just anyone to buy a trapline. One has to have previous trapping experience, and an experienced trapper would most likely have equipment of his own.

And, the buyer would have the option to say no thanks to the equipment.
So clearly it is not equipment that is behind the astronomical prices some ask and get.

Selling the trapping rights is a different matter, and lets be honest here, that is what is really being sold, in the high dollar sales.
After all, what is a cabin really worth? $10,000 to $20,000 in most cases, right ?
And oh yeah, the trails. Those cutlines and oil roads cost the trapper a lot to cut, right? Well actually, I don't know of one trapper who has cut more then a mile of trail, and that with a power saw. A week or so worth of work, at best.
So lets say the average trapper has $2,000 or $3,000 worth of effort into making trails. And bridges, yeah, two logs across a stream has got to be worth a pile.

Sure there is one trapper out there who invested a couple of hundred thou into his trapping, maybe even two. But for the majority of the trappers I know, $20,000 would cover all of their costs and equipment.

So what business expects 100% recovery on costs, From the sale of that business? Not one that I have ever encountered. They recoup operating and development costs from their day to day profits in most cases.

The argument that a line is worth $300,000 or even $60,000 is simply dishonest. No real trapper has that sort of money invested in his line.
How could he, or why would he, for an annual income of $5,000 to $20,000 for most trappers.

Have a look at this and tell me that this fur could pay for $60,000 in improvements to a trapline.



That's my best bud's take for this year, thus far. There is just under $10,000 in fur there, and that's from a good line by a very energetic and experienced trapper.

And that's before accounting for expenses. Why would anyone expect me to believe that they invested $100,000 or more into a trapline!
I know what trapping pays and it ain't enough for such an investment.

People who have invested that much in a trapline, didn't make that money trapping. They made it by outfitting. And the improvements were for outfitting, not trapping.

[outdoorsmen101]

Keg....here is some simplicity for you. There is a seller and a buyer. The seller has a price and the buyer has perhaps another version of the price. So if the buyer really really wants what the seller has, he, with a willing pocketbook will buy it. The price in some instances doesn't matter.

That goes for real estate, vehicles, jewellery, paintings and I could go on and on. I'm sure most of us would really wonder the sanity of the guy that would purchase the Mona Lisa painting.

It doesn't just apply to traplines. How about Outfitters areas, wildlife permits...if you think it just applies to traplines then I guess I lost the debate.

Buying and selling has gone on for many Centuries in all comodities, real assets etc....why are traplines in your mind so special to the buy/sell World that if someone really wants one they can purchase the assets and obtain the permit to trap it?

Again if people think traplines are being widely abused, show some concrete evidence and post the RFMA number and trappers name. Al inuendo as far as I can see because no one has posted anything but inuendo in that regard..

[molly]

I do not know who owns that $300K trapline, but I would sure be interested to hear him justify that price.

[remington17]

Actually 101, it's not innuendo. I mentioned the 3 fellows from Buck Lake who bought their line specifically with the intent of hunting. One has his trappers license and traps very part time. They are so tickled to tell you how great the hunting is and how nice it's to have a place to get away from it all. I'm not sure where your head is at. RFMA's are not and were never meant to be a speculative investment. It is supposed to be for people who want to trap and manage an area to the best of their ability for the good of the wildlife that lives amongst them.

I hope nobody gets their line taken from them. On that note, I hope the unused lines are found and the owners convinced to take on the trapline responsibilities. The DAO is the future and it can't come quick enough. For the whiners, get trapping. It is a very fair plan and encourages trappers to trap

[mark-edmonton]

I know of people that actualy buy extra fur off others to show their line is being used. I would love to have my own line someday but am greatful to have been signed on as a jr

[Rocks]

The trapline in question was for sale a little over a year ago for 120K (by the previous owner) if I remember correctly. Good way to make money, buy and sell traplines, while pricing the guys who really want to trap right out of the market.

[FCLightning]

Trapping rights, hunting rights - what's the difference? We are pushing the envelope in the wrong way.

[mark-edmonton]

Not really hunters have the right to hunt on any trapline they want but trappers are very limited. Can't go trap anywhere I please, even on crown land. I'm new to this so I can't really comment, just hope to have a line someday but have free reign to trap all I want on my sr's line

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Thats what everyone selling something says to the people that are buying. Yet not everyone can agree... hmm

Trapping equipment isnt very useful without the trapline, so there should be no surprises to the fact that some sales have had value placed on the tangibles. This is what started the mess, now old quads and traps are worth $300K because "its well worth it". You decide.

His line was not sold for anywhere near $3000, but it WAS sold for a fair price considering the amount of equipment that came with it.
My brother and I are not shysters, we were brought up by honest parents who didn't believe in screwing somebody out of a dollar.
My brother, BTW, likely broke even on his initial investment......
Cat

[Wolf Medicine]

This thread is a joke. Kegriver, if you ever decide to let your line go, I would love to come take it. Will give you fair market value for a 20x24 cabin. Am not interested in your traps, Have my own, And work better with my own stuff anyhow. Will openly consider reasonable value on "Your" trail improvements. But as you imply that is not ur doing anyway. Truly I do lean towards the standard you imply. Reasonable pricing for profit potential. So if you do truly support this theory. When you decide to pack it in don't care how far it is from now. I am young and I wanna trap. Will gladly offer you 10% over your justifications of value. For the standard you imply, I should be able to trap and turn a profit after likely 6-8 years of trapping. In general this in business sense is poor return but I would be happy to do it. By the way, I am a outfitter. But I do not want a line for that end. For that end do not see any real value personally, as likely the area ur line is in would not do that any good. as we hunt around my family's ranch. I would love to have the excuse and possible profit of spending even more time out in the woods then I do now. Am lookin forward to hearing what your line may be worth when the time comes.

[steve]

Who wants to trap their line anymore thats boring. To busy guiding clients, having weekend getaways and hunting moose out of the ol'trapping cabin, to bother trapping. Maybe setup a few martin boxes along the lease road over xmas, but thats about it. Snare wolves? They stink.

Sign a junior partner? Thats crazy talk, wouldnt want that guy out there using my hunting cabin.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Wolf Medicine

This thread is a joke. Kegriver, if you ever decide to let your line go, I would love to come take it. Will give you fair market value for a 20x24 cabin. Am not interested in your traps, Have my own, And work better with my own stuff anyhow. Will openly consider reasonable value on "Your" trail improvements. But as you imply that is not ur doing anyway. Truly I do lean towards the standard you imply. Reasonable pricing for profit potential. So if you do truly support this theory. When you decide to pack it in don't care how far it is from now. I am young and I wanna trap. Will gladly offer you 10% over your justifications of value. For the standard you imply, I should be able to trap and turn a profit after likely 6-8 years of trapping. In general this in business sense is poor return but I would be happy to do it. By the way, I am a outfitter. But I do not want a line for that end. For that end do not see any real value personally, as likely the area ur line is in would not do that any good. as we hunt around my family's ranch. I would love to have the excuse and possible profit of spending even more time out in the woods then I do now. Am lookin forward to hearing what your line may be worth when the time comes.

I just turned down $20,000 for my line, then signed it over to a fellow I know, that I know will trap it. As God is my witness, no money changed hands.
I didn't have much into the line, just normal costs for trapping.
I didn't get the line as an investment. I got it as a place to trap, and I did trap it for a lot of years, so the way I see it, I got my moneys worth.

I didn't build the cabin, it was built by a previous owner and I didn't buy it from him. That was not allowed back when I got my line.
So I got fair value for my investment and more importantly, it went to someone I know will trap it.

But thanks for the offer.

[outdoorsmen101]

Originally Posted by remington17

Actually 101, it's not innuendo. I mentioned the 3 fellows from Buck Lake who bought their line specifically with the intent of hunting. One has his trappers license and traps very part time. They are so tickled to tell you how great the hunting is and how nice it's to have a place to get away from it all. I'm not sure where your head is at. RFMA's are not and were never meant to be a speculative investment. It is supposed to be for people who want to trap and manage an area to the best of their ability for the good of the wildlife that lives amongst them.

I hope nobody gets their line taken from them. On that note, I hope the unused lines are found and the owners convinced to take on the trapline responsibilities. The DAO is the future and it can't come quick enough. For the whiners, get trapping. It is a very fair plan and encourages trappers to trap

I know the three guys you are talking about. They used the line for entertaining oilfield clients basically. I agree with you that is totally not the intent of having a line. The proposed DAO that isn't ever going to happen will not solve this problem.

They now have that line for sale with skidoos and equipment for 180K. Last I heard a few guys from a trucking company from Drayton were going to buy it.

[bullgetter]

When you sell a line the line is transferred back to the government. You must supply a letter that states you only wish to hand the line back over if it will be given to said buyer. So it actually falls back to the government first and they can always say NO. Now if that is the case the government could have a screening process to check out the proposed buyers intentions with the line. Perhaps they could put on a cap on the asking price for a line or ask for proof of value of the assets being sold.

[houndsmen]

Originally Posted by steve

Who wants to trap their line anymore thats boring. To busy guiding clients, having weekend getaways and hunting moose out of the ol'trapping cabin, to bother trapping. Maybe setup a few martin boxes along the lease road over xmas, but thats about it. Snare wolves? They stink.

Sign a junior partner? Thats crazy talk, wouldnt want that guy out there using my hunting cabin.

This is EXACTLY what goes on around here!!

Nice little weekend ski-doo ride once in a while, some hot chocolate with the kids, maybe throw up a few box's as long as theres a tree close enough too the road. With any luck snap a few pictures of the oversized heard of wolves constantly running through.....ya know, trapping!

And dont even bother with the Jr. Partner crap, there son has that tied up so him and his college buddies have a moose camp for 3 days in the fall!

[357xp]

Originally Posted by houndsmen

This is EXACTLY what goes on around here!!

Nice little weekend ski-doo ride once in a while, some hot chocolate with the kids, maybe throw up a few box's as long as theres a tree close enough too the road. With any luck snap a few pictures of the oversized heard of wolves constantly running through.....ya know, trapping!

And dont even bother with the Jr. Partner crap, there son has that tied up so him and his college buddies have a moose camp for 3 days in the fall!

i agree there is alot of this going on and it aint rightbut.............dont paint every single trapline black because of it...there are some trappers that put alot of effort into there lines