Econonmically - Canada vs Australia

[2 Tollers]

Interesting article in the Financial Post by Diane Francis with some solid numbers on differences in economic performance -- GDP, Health Care, Income Levels

From the article these two points are telling:

" Two big differences separate the two countries policy approaches in recent years. Exhibit A: Canada’s Liberal government has allowed unprecedented levels of immigration, which has swamped health-care systems and driven housing prices to unaffordable levels.

Australia, on the other hand, has kept immigration relatively steady compared to pre-pandemic levels, admitting around 80,000 permanent residents last year, compared to 471,770 in Canada.

Exhibit B: In 2022, Trudeau dismissed billions in German investment to build a major liquefied natural gas hub in New Brunswick, and he even questioned the “business case” of doing so. German companies have since started doing more business with Australian energy suppliers."


https://financialpost.com/diane-fran...er-than-canada

[Smoky buck]

Funny you bring this up my son is presently looking into visas and options in Australia with the plan of moving next year

So it’s been a while since I have spoken to the few people I know there and discussed the state of Australia vs Canada. Last time I spoke to them cost of living was similar to slightly cheaper, wages are a little higher on average, and economically they were doing better with a strong mining sector. Just like things are different in each Canadian province same goes for Australian states.

My son has been talking to people he knows in NSW and they are saying about the same but jobs are a little slower. These are young guys in the 19-25 age so not always the most knowledgeable age class when it comes to economics in most cases

[2 Tollers]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Funny you bring this up my son is presently looking into visas and options in Australia with the plan of moving next year

I have a nephew that got his medical degree in Australia as a foreign student and stayed. He is a surgeon and doing very well.

Our son toured Australia several times and wanted to stay (he had numerous job offers) but his girlfriend now his wife wanted to return to Canada. They are settled here with kids now but with worries on the future here, see the Australia decision now as a missed opportunity.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by 2 Tollers

I have a nephew that got his medical degree in Australia as a foreign student and stayed. He is a surgeon and doing very well.

Our son toured Australia several times and wanted to stay (he had numerous job offers) but his girlfriend now his wife wanted to return to Canada. They are settled here with kids now but with worries on the future here, see the Australia decision now as a missed opportunity.

I have had job offers in Australia in the past but at the time the wife wouldn’t go and now I am close to Australias 45 year old limit so likely going to be off the table. Promised the wife we would stay in Canada till her mom passes(old and has cancer) so I am here till then as I keep my word. With direction Canada has headed my wife kids regrets that I didn’t take the offers in the past. Really I am up grading my education right now to broaden our options if needed even

We have a decent amount of friends/family that have left Canada for different countries and none are trying to come back

When you know people in other countries it’s even clearer how messed up Canada has become

[NCC]

We're getting left behind thanks to our federal government. From the Bank of Canada via Global News:

"The Bank of Canada is warning that waning productivity growth in the country is an “emergency” that can force higher interest rates and limit rising wages for Canadians. Senior deputy governor Carolyn Rogers gave a speech in Halifax on Tuesday in which she sounded the alarm on Canada's lagging productivity rates."

When I look at my T4 and how little purchasing power I have relative to how much income I have, it infuriates me.

Printing billions of dollars to pay young workers to sit in their basements for 2 years will cost this country a $1000 for every dollar that the feds printed and gave away.

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by NCC

We're getting left behind thanks to our federal government. From the Bank of Canada via Global News:

"The Bank of Canada is warning that waning productivity growth in the country is an “emergency” that can force higher interest rates and limit rising wages for Canadians. Senior deputy governor Carolyn Rogers gave a speech in Halifax on Tuesday in which she sounded the alarm on Canada's lagging productivity rates."

When I look at my T4 and how little purchasing power I have relative to how much income I have, it infuriates me.

Printing billions of dollars to pay young workers to sit in their basements for 2 years will cost this country a $1000 for every dollar that the feds printed and gave away.

I think that waning productivity in Canada has very little to do with young workers in their basement. It's more likely due to over regulation, bureaucracy, and an over abundance of "processes" in most corporations. Most private corporations and public entities focus way too much on outdated methodologies driven by less than stellar software. Far too often time is wasted on focusing on outputs instead of actual outcomes. If large corporations and government organizations would focus on hiring the right people for the job instead of focusing on the popularity contest that is inclusiveness and diversity, things would likely become much more productive.

In my 25 plus years with the same corporation, I saw it happening constantly. More and more software and expert analysts were brought in to make the company more "lean" and "agile". The result was predictable, get rid of more front line staff. Customer service would then plummet, quality of work would suffer, consumer confidence would wane and then more analysts would be brought in to try the same stale methods. If share prices edged down, instead of making creative or original changes, the low hanging fruit would be plucked, usually in the form of a cutting front line staff. I literally watched the company change from a traditional pyramid based structure to that of a diamond shape rife with middle management.

Ending up with so many middle managers was way worse than one bad manager, as it led to multiple reporting and decisions, or often no decisions at all. Multiple leaders chased multiple goals and metrics which were often mutually exclusive leading to an indecisive struggle between goals and priorities. This resulted in under-processing or over processing, which in turn nullified efficiency and consistency

When the workforce was being constantly slashed and "outsourced", I always found the questions asked by our leadership via "fair process" completely asinine. We would be asked if we had any ideas why the work wasn't getting done on time, why the customers were not happy with their service and what we thought could be done to improve productivity? Gee, I don't know, maybe because the workforce was cut by about 50% and 25% of the day was now spent utilizing processes that were implemented to find out how to make us more productive. Talk about a department of redundancy department.

I guess the only upside is that I was able to exit the company a few years years early with some extra money in my pocket. But I sure feel for the employees left behind and future employees.

[calgarychef]

I just told a coworker that if the liberals win the next election then I’m seriously looking at australia.

[Glion]

My wifes whole family is out there. I would be very careful painting it as the land of milk and honey. Where they live house prices are crazy high. Cost of living (wife compares with her sisters on groceries) is more expensive. Though some things ie cell phone plans are cheaper. I also have a sister in Tasmania and it is a similar story. That and in Covid their Gov't went insane and alot of people fully endorsed loosing their rights.
We have looked into it alot and in our current situation we would be worse off but it is also probably quite job dependent.

[Coiloil37]

There’s more than one reason we sold everything we owned, packed a few belongings into suitcases and flew my wife and three kids over here. Five years later we can’t fathom a reason that would make us leave. Believe it or not, after nearly 40 years in Canada and having worked or lived here in Queensland since 2011 I could provide some answers to anyone with questions.

[Pioneer2]

right up there with Venezuela

[dodger]

Originally Posted by HVA7mm

I think that waning productivity in Canada has very little to do with young workers in their basement. It's more likely due to over regulation, bureaucracy, and an over abundance of "processes" in most corporations. Most private corporations and public entities focus way too much on outdated methodologies driven by less than stellar software. Far too often time is wasted on focusing on outputs instead of actual outcomes. If large corporations and government organizations would focus on hiring the right people for the job instead of focusing on the popularity contest that is inclusiveness and diversity, things would likely become much more productive.

In my 25 plus years with the same corporation, I saw it happening constantly. More and more software and expert analysts were brought in to make the company more "lean" and "agile". The result was predictable, get rid of more front line staff. Customer service would then plummet, quality of work would suffer, consumer confidence would wane and then more analysts would be brought in to try the same stale methods. If share prices edged down, instead of making creative or original changes, the low hanging fruit would be plucked, usually in the form of a cutting front line staff. I literally watched the company change from a traditional pyramid based structure to that of a diamond shape rife with middle management.

Ending up with so many middle managers was way worse than one bad manager, as it led to multiple reporting and decisions, or often no decisions at all. Multiple leaders chased multiple goals and metrics which were often mutually exclusive leading to an indecisive struggle between goals and priorities. This resulted in under-processing or over processing, which in turn nullified efficiency and consistency

When the workforce was being constantly slashed and "outsourced", I always found the questions asked by our leadership via "fair process" completely asinine. We would be asked if we had any ideas why the work wasn't getting done on time, why the customers were not happy with their service and what we thought could be done to improve productivity? Gee, I don't know, maybe because the workforce was cut by about 50% and 25% of the day was now spent utilizing processes that were implemented to find out how to make us more productive. Talk about a department of redundancy department.

I guess the only upside is that I was able to exit the company a few years years early with some extra money in my pocket. But I sure feel for the employees left behind and future employees.

This is so true on many levels with many companies. Hammer - Nail - End of story.

Dodger.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

There’s more than one reason we sold everything we owned, packed a few belongings into suitcases and flew my wife and three kids over here. Five years later we can’t fathom a reason that would make us leave. Believe it or not, after nearly 40 years in Canada and having worked or lived here in Queensland since 2011 I could provide some answers to anyone with questions.

I was just gonna suggest reaching out to you but you beat me to it

Got a fish pic or two plus a story to share?

[2 Tollers]

Interesting read from David Rosenberg. Really does not paint a good future for Canada economically.

There will be lots of work to get out of the hole the peewee junior team in Ottawa has created.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/tops...ay/ar-BB1kGCBO

[Big Grey Wolf]

HVA7mm, a very Excellent review of what has happened to our productivity in so many Canadian Corporations and local companies.

[Drewski Canuck]

Australia is very protectionist for auto manufacturing. Huge prices over what Multi Nationals charge elsewhere.

Housing is very very high. In 2015 Vancouver average price was $1.5 Mill for a house. Australia and New Zealand was $2.1 Mill for a house in the major centers.

Fuel is taxed heavily and a constant water shortage in big centers, as it is basically a desert continent for the north part.

They are more supportive of their mining sector, but they too have been "woke" on the environment and regulation.

But it is hard to fathom how badly Justin and Friends have screwed up a Country which has so much promise as Canada.

Drewski

[CDN offroader]

Frank Stronach has put a bunch of articles bashing the current spending and government bloat.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/don...al-bureaucracy

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/tops...i=40&domshim=1

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Australia is very protectionist for auto manufacturing. Huge prices over what Multi Nationals charge elsewhere.

Housing is very very high. In 2015 Vancouver average price was $1.5 Mill for a house. Australia and New Zealand was $2.1 Mill for a house in the major centers.

Fuel is taxed heavily and a constant water shortage in big centers, as it is basically a desert continent for the north part.

They are more supportive of their mining sector, but they too have been "woke" on the environment and regulation.

But it is hard to fathom how badly Justin and Friends have screwed up a Country which has so much promise as Canada.

Drewski

Housing is much closer and varies a lot depending on location. Still a little higher than Canada but just like Canada there is still housing that is affordable outside of cities

Woke issues again vary depending on location just like Canada

Fuel is higher not drastically though. Closer to the higher price regions in Canada. If I remember right it was just over 2$ a liter where my buddy is in NSW. Again varies by region

The wife and I have friends/family in both NZ and Australia so we get to hear directly from residents not just stats

[Talking moose]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[muirsy]

I've done around 9 years split between Melbourne & Sydney in my life (most recently 2014), and would never go back.

Too expensive in the big cities, especially Sydney. Worse than Vancouver by a LONG shot.

If you think it's strange that more and more millennials here are living at home well into their 30's, it's even more common there, and has been for at least 10-15 years.

When I moved away at 30 in 2014, none of my friends owed properties. None.

Australia is much more of a nanny state than Canada - even in 2014 it was sliding that way, and when Covid came around they went crazy with the lockdowns which was no surprise to me given what I'd experienced. Rules, rules, rules.

Nice place to visit though.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Australia is very protectionist for auto manufacturing. Huge prices over what Multi Nationals charge elsewhere.

Housing is very very high. In 2015 Vancouver average price was $1.5 Mill for a house. Australia and New Zealand was $2.1 Mill for a house in the major centers.

Fuel is taxed heavily and a constant water shortage in big centers, as it is basically a desert continent for the north part.

They are more supportive of their mining sector, but they too have been "woke" on the environment and regulation.

But it is hard to fathom how badly Justin and Friends have screwed up a Country which has so much promise as Canada.

Drewski

You had a few misses. Let’s clarify.

Australia killed its domestic auto manufacturing a few years ago. The cost of doing business in this country is higher than a third world country and ford was the last to pull out.


Housing is high but regional and proximity to water and some cities drives prices. Not much different than Canada it’s all about location. Here’s the latest stats though






Half the population lives in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. If your within an hour of those cities or living on the water housing is not cheap. There are new build shortages and since Covid prices have gotten much worse then they used to be. Our place has doubled in value since 2021 so back then it was affordable by Alberta standards and now it’s less so.

Here are examples of whats on the market now close to the water but 3 hours north of Brisbane. I tried to talk the missus into moving north a bit further but she’s to happy here with her friends.


This one includes both sheds on the right. And is mid $900’s about 3km from the ocean.




This one can be had in the high 800’s and that’s the ocean in the top and left in the pictures.





It’s no trouble to find a home in the 400’s if needed or a mansion away from the water for far less then a mill.


Fuel has a $.47 cent per litre tax on it. Currently we’re paying $1.86 per litre for 91 reg.


Who cares what the middle of the countries like? Last I checked Canadas north was relatively inhospitable as well.


I’ve never seen a water shortage. We’ve got plenty of water but again that’s a seasonal and regional problem that might show up anywhere. It’s still something I haven’t seen. All the dams and reservoirs are full.


Correct we support the mining sectors. There’s a reason Queensland posted a 12 billion dollar surplus last year and it’s due to our mining. That’s only some states though, not the country.

We are far from woke though by every metric. I’ve literally seen campaign signs with anti woke messages written on them. That said, WA and Victoria are closer down that path but nowhere near where Canada is.
Believe it or not, different states have different opinions on subjects and vote politically in ways that reflect their beliefs. That then translates to various policies and culture. It’s a big country with vast differences.


Wages are higher. If we compare apples to apples. Here’s MacDonald this morning.





Just remember that weekends are time and a half and holidays are double time.


If you want a job on a mine I’ve got connections and can get you one driving a truck and they’ll start you at $180k a year for a 7/7 roster. Camp life with transportation to and from the mine site covered. After 6 months probation you’ll get full time and they’ll upgrade your skills. Guys top out around $1800/day once they’re trained.

If your a safety germ I’ve got some connections there too. I have a buddy who works as an hse advisor on a pipeline, he’s 14/14 on 300k a year.

I’m oil and gas, we have been dragging the proverbial pay scale for to long. It’s sad, lease hands are only starting on $600/day and they work 14/14.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

You had a few misses. Let’s clarify.

Australia killed its domestic auto manufacturing a few years ago. The cost of doing business in this country is higher than a third world country and ford was the last to pull out.


Housing is high but regional and proximity to water and some cities drives prices. Not much different than Canada it’s all about location. Here’s the latest stats though






Half the population lives in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. If your within an hour of those cities or living on the water housing is not cheap. There are new build shortages and since Covid prices have gotten much worse then they used to be. Our place has doubled in value since 2021 so back then it was affordable by Alberta standards and now it’s less so.

Here are examples of whats on the market now close to the water but 3 hours north of Brisbane. I tried to talk the missus into moving north a bit further but she’s to happy here with her friends.


This one includes both sheds on the right. And is mid $900’s about 3km from the ocean.




This one can be had in the high 800’s and that’s the ocean in the top and left in the pictures.





It’s no trouble to find a home in the 400’s if needed or a mansion away from the water for far less then a mill.


Fuel has a $.47 cent per litre tax on it. Currently we’re paying $1.86 per litre for 91 reg.


Who cares what the middle of the countries like? Last I checked Canadas north was relatively inhospitable as well.


I’ve never seen a water shortage. We’ve got plenty of water but again that’s a seasonal and regional problem that might show up anywhere. It’s still something I haven’t seen. All the dams and reservoirs are full.


Correct we support the mining sectors. There’s a reason Queensland posted a 12 billion dollar surplus last year and it’s due to our mining. That’s only some states though, not the country.

We are far from woke though by every metric. I’ve literally seen campaign signs with anti woke messages written on them. That said, WA and Victoria are closer down that path but nowhere near where Canada is.
Believe it or not, different states have different opinions on subjects and vote politically in ways that reflect their beliefs. That then translates to various policies and culture. It’s a big country with vast differences.


Wages are higher. If we compare apples to apples. Here’s MacDonald this morning.





Just remember that weekends are time and a half and holidays are double time.


If you want a job on a mine I’ve got connections and can get you one driving a truck and they’ll start you at $180k a year for a 7/7 roster. Camp life with transportation to and from the mine site covered. After 6 months probation you’ll get full time and they’ll upgrade your skills. Guys top out around $1800/day once they’re trained.

If your a safety germ I’ve got some connections there too. I have a buddy who works as an hse advisor on a pipeline, he’s 14/14 on 300k a year.

I’m oil and gas, we have been dragging the proverbial pay scale for to long. It’s sad, lease hands are only starting on $600/day and they work 14/14.

You are saying basically the same thing I am hearing and my son is hearing from people we know in Australia

It’s funny how many Canadians think Australia is so woke but the only person I know in Australia that mentions woke policies is in Sidney. I just assume it’s the big city thing Same as here

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

You are saying basically the same thing I am hearing and my son is hearing from people we know in Australia

It’s funny how many Canadians think Australia is so woke but the only person I know in Australia that mentions woke policies is in Sidney. I just assume it’s the big city thing Same as here

It’s certain states and cities within those states. As for states, the ACT and Victoria lead the charge. It we narrow it down it’s specifically Melbourne but I’m happy condemning all of Victoria, they’re different down there. Sydney in NSW has some problems too but it’s not that bad if compared to most of the world.

If you speak to an Aussie about it they think it’s bad and getting worse but it was WAY worse than this in Canada twenty years ago. I’m happy they’ve got their eyes open and don’t like it.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

It’s certain states and cities within those states. As for states, the ACT and Victoria lead the charge. It we narrow it down it’s specifically Melbourne but I’m happy condemning all of Victoria, they’re different down there. Sydney in NSW has some problems too but it’s not that bad if compared to most of the world.

If you speak to an Aussie about it they think it’s bad and getting worse but it was WAY worse than this in Canada twenty years ago. I’m happy they’ve got their eyes open and don’t like it.

All the people my wife and I know in Australia or NZ are originally from Canada so they seem to give a fair comparison. My son knows a few born and bred Australia's that he met from his buddy who’s a snowboarding instructor in Banff. Even the born and bred Australians my son knows think Canada is messed up after living here for 6 months on work holidays

My boy is dead set in his mind that he is moving to Australia next year so he will get to see what he thinks first hand

Me I am trapped in Canada for at least 2 more years between up grading and the wife wanting to stay close enough to visit her mother with cancer. By then I will be 44 and it’s tough to immigrate to Australia once you hit 45 from my understanding so it’s likely not an option for me

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

All the people my wife and I know in Australia or NZ are originally from Canada so they seem to give a fair comparison. My son knows a few born and bred Australia's that he met from his buddy who’s a snowboarding instructor in Banff. Even the born and bred Australians my son knows think Canada is messed up after living here for 6 months on work holidays

My boy is dead set in his mind that he is moving to Australia next year so he will get to see what he thinks first hand

Me I am trapped in Canada for at least 2 more years between up grading and the wife wanting to stay close enough to visit her mother with cancer. By then I will be 44 and it’s tough to immigrate to Australia once you hit 45 from my understanding so it’s likely not an option for me

It depends on what you’re bringing to the table. They import skilled migrants and specifically migrants with skills that the country deemed its lacking in. They have a soft cut off at 45 because the amount you’ll contribute to the economy is potentially less then what your going to cost in care as a senior.

We (the company I work for) have moved Canadians over here and gotten them PR/citizenship that were just on 45 years old and I’ve heard it can be done if your 45-50 but harder.

It’s individual specific so if you’re sitting on 44-50 years old you would have to look into it.

Your son is making an excellent choice. Even if he moves back to the motherland he will gain perspective. People need to get out of their bubble to see what’s out there.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

It depends on what you’re bringing to the table. They import skilled migrants and specifically migrants with skills that the country deemed its lacking in. They have a soft cut off at 45 because the amount you’ll contribute to the economy is potentially less then what your going to cost in care as a senior.

We (the company I work for) have moved Canadians over here and gotten them PR/citizenship that were just on 45 years old and I’ve heard it can be done if your 45-50 but harder.

It’s individual specific so if you’re sitting on 44-50 years old you would have to look into it.

Your son is making an excellent choice. Even if he moves back to the motherland he will gain perspective. People need to get out of their bubble to see what’s out there.

My son is looking at options on where to go do you have recommendations for areas that are 30 000 or less in population? Anything to add to his research options

He hates big cities

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

My son is looking at options on where to go do you have recommendations for areas that are 30 000 or less in population? Anything to add to his research options

He hates big cities

Depends on all the obvious factors. What’s he doing for work, income, hobbies, interests, preferred climate and living conditions etc.

We can take it off thread if you want but I would need some more info to try and help answer that question.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

Depends on all the obvious factors. What’s he doing for work, income, hobbies, interests, preferred climate and living conditions etc.

We can take it off thread if you want but I would need some more info to try and help answer that question.

He is 20 with limited experience. Basically been working in a lube shop interested in mechanics. He just wants to pay his bills and work towards a trades ticket. From what I understand he is likely going to switch to an oilfield job to save more money to do this. So odds are he will add some new experience over the next year. I would say basically a young guy with ambitions

For hobbies he likes to get punched in the face so a kickboxing gym lol. Outside that he does a little fishing. Not into drinking or club stuff more in to fitness.

Climate he is not big into really hot and living conditions he is not super picky. He is not needy and he basically works/hangs out at the kick boxing gym for the most part

He has basically just started doing his research with a goal on making it happen next spring. He has a good chunk saved so financially he should have no issues

Feel free to respond by PM so we don’t derail things too much

[HyperMOA]

Coiloil can correct me if I am mistaken, but your boy is probably more likely to receive citizenship if he goes there as a tradesman not looking for a trade.

[Outbound]

What are the gun laws, target shooting and hunting like in Australia?

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Coiloil can correct me if I am mistaken, but your boy is probably more likely to receive citizenship if he goes there as a tradesman not looking for a trade.

I came in on a skilled visa so only know that pathway. It’s far easier if you’re coming with a trade.

However. You can come here many different ways and if you follow the rules, don’t lie to immigration and want to be useful you’ll navigate a path through to PR and then citizenship after 4 years if that’s the goal. You can stay here on permanent residency forever too.
I know an Aussie who brought a Canadian woman back on a rural work visa. They lied about where she was living and working. She got deported and he’s now drilling for PD over there and living in airdrie because she’s never allowed back here.


So long story short, yea it’s easier to come with a trade but you can get a trade once you’re here. They’re interested in people who want to contribute to a strong economy and we don’t have enough.