Pros & Cons - 3.5" 12 ga. options

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's a case of marketing the 3-1/2" guns and shells to convince people that they need them to hunt geese.With good marketing, you can sell people pretty much anything whether they need it or not. If anyone hunting with us starts shooting at 60 or 70 yards, it will be their last hunt with us. We still get birds without shooting that far, and we cripple far fewer birds by not taking those shots.

Thanks elk, you nailed it man.

Last season twice I had gun counter guys at Cabelas tell me I needed at Least BBB if Im shooting 2 3/4. Its AMAZING how poorly informed guys are

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

3 inch 12 gauge more then enough for geese, the 3 1/2 12 gauge is devastating in a pump or a single shot on a shoulder, its almost to much in a gas operated semi. the options are there doesn't mean to say you have to use a 3 1/2 in though, I found even in a beneli or franchi or beretta they recoil more then my browning 10 gauge 3 1/2 inch

[Mike_W]

I'm glad I wouldn't get to hunt with you guys....sound strung a little tight for me anyway.
For the record 60 yards shots are not the norm or goal but second or third pass or they flare when you know they are not going to commit..... absolutely....what's the problem with that?

Maybe not everyone is as elite as your guys where you won't shoot a bird if it cant be wing shot at 20 yards....I know I'm not ...and I never seem have problems finding people to join me.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by sikwhiskey

Patterning has more to do with the end of the barrel, than the chamber. Never really noticed the difference out of my a400 other than recoil and shot patern. Chokes seem to make up for pattern. 3.5 mag loads do boot ya a whole lot more.

Silk, it has to do with initial start-up disruption of the shot column as the unsupported shotcup transits the open space to where the 3.5" chamber's forcing cone begins.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

I'm glad I wouldn't get to hunt with you guys....sound strung a little tight for me anyway.
For the record 60 yards shots are not the norm or goal but second or third pass or they flare when you know they are not going to commit..... absolutely....what's the problem with that?

Maybe not everyone is as elite as your guys where you won't shoot a bird if it cant be wing shot at 20 yards....I know I'm not ...and I never seem have problems finding people to join me.

I'd imagine the 'cripple' rate is much higher when shooting at 60yds.

[twofifty]

wildside, do the WSSs, Cabelas and Canadian Tires of our brave new world
carry a decent selection of steel and other non-toxic 2.75" duck & goose loads?

Or are the shelves mostly filled with the 3" and 3.5" fodder?

I noticed the Winchester website has a much greater choice of 3" and 3.5" steel than 2.75" steel loads.

[Pixel Shooter]

Just reading thru some of these posts, just WOW!!! the fact of the matter is 3" is the standard now days period with steel. yes you can shoot smaller but majority dont. If you can purchase a gun with 3.5" for same price for 3" why wouldnt you? wouldnt be very much fun with a pump but for resale or ever wanted to, you can. for me personally with the amount I shoot, I would be in the poor house. I figure a bird with a brain the size of a pea cant be killed with smaller then I better take up a new hobby.

For the record I have seen more misinformed posts here on AO then I have ever heard in the store, so take that for what its worth. Any shotgun will kill birds, all about fit, dependability and features/benefits.

No more mud slinging if you disagree here folks or will be short lived. And for the record I have bird hunted with MikeW more than once and would sit in the blind any day with him. Hard to find good folk, best part about bird hunting is the commeraderie among people who share in the same passion, so take that for what its worth

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by twofifty

wildside, do the WSSs, Cabelas and Canadian Tires of our brave new world
carry a decent selection of steel and other non-toxic 2.75" duck & goose loads?

Or are the shelves mostly filled with the 3" and 3.5" fodder?

I noticed the Winchester website has a much greater choice of 3" and 3.5" steel than 2.75" steel loads.

Actually Cabelas isn't bad. Ukranian tire in Leduc is pretty solid supply wise and will be better this coming fall. But yes, you have more options nowadays with a 3" chamber. It sucks actually, as I don't want to have to give up my old wingmaster

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by twofifty

I'd imagine the 'cripple' rate is much higher when shooting at 60yds.

Actually they usually get a broken wing or are head shot and die.
You don't get then dropping cause of a body shot wollop than fly away. I have shot several birds at closer range with 3" and they drop only to go do a pick up and have them lift there head and fly away ....Also caught a few of these birds and rang their neck then later plucked them only to find zero penetration but bruises on the skin. At 60 the steel either bounces of or kills them.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

I'm glad I wouldn't get to hunt with you guys....sound strung a little tight for me anyway.
For the record 60 yards shots are not the norm or goal but second or third pass or they flare when you know they are not going to commit..... absolutely....what's the problem with that?

Maybe not everyone is as elite as your guys where you won't shoot a bird if it cant be wing shot at 20 yards....I know I'm not ...and I never seem have problems finding people to join me.

I don't need to kill a goose badly enough to attempt 60 yard shots. If the geese flare at 60 yards and I don't get a shot at that flock, I am not going to go hungry. I would rather wait for another flock, and if necessary go home with a goose or two less for my freezer. It's just not acceptable to me to take low percentage shots, and end up with a higher rate of crippled birds. I like to take some birds home, but that isn't my primary reason to hunt. I hunt to enjoy the experience with friends and family, the meat is secondary to me.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I don't need to kill a goose badly enough to attempt 60 yard shots. If the geese flare at 60 yards and I don't get a shot at that flock, I am not going to go hungry. I would rather wait for another flock, and if necessary go home with a goose or two less for my freezer. It's just not acceptable to me to take low percentage shots, and end up with a higher rate of crippled birds. I like to take some birds home, but that isn't my primary reason to hunt. I hunt to enjoy the experience with friends and family, the meat is secondary to me.

Oh so would you hunt big game with someone who shoots a rifle past your acceptable range say 200 yards?

Do you have much experience with shooting steel at 60 with a 3.5" shotgun? Do you really find there to be anymore cripples than at other distances?

Would you just not hunt with someone who isn't a crack shot at say 20 or 30 yards and the results are over your acceptable range of cripples?

Cripples are a large part of any waterfowl hunt they happen at 20 and 60 yards (as I stated above I actually find there to be less "cripples" at 60") running them down and getting them is what's important.

[cpppark]

Buy the 3.5 inch shotgun, it will make it easier to sell it when you want to upgrade to something bigger and better. Shoot 2 3/4 loads and 3 inch if you think you need to. If you want some serious punishment buy some 3.5 heavy loads and knock yourself out. That is a surefire way to develop a nasty flinch especially with a pump gun. Shooting light loads and lots of them will make you a better overall wingshot.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Oh so would you hunt big game with someone who shoots a rifle past your acceptable range say 200 yards?

Do you have much experience with shooting steel at 60 with a 3.5" shotgun? Do you really find there to be anymore cripples than at other distances?

Would you just not hunt with someone who isn't a crack shot at say 20 or 30 yards and the results are over your acceptable range of cripples?

Cripples are a large part of any waterfowl hunt they happen at 20 and 60 yards (as I stated above I actually find there to be less "cripples" at 60") running them down and getting them is what's important.

If someone that I am hunting with is crippling a lot of birds, it won't matter to me if they are crippling birds at 30 yards or at 60 yards, I won't want to hunt with them again. As for having less cripples at 60 yards than at closer distances, I can only surmise that since the pellets have less energy at longer distances, the body shot cripples fly a lot farther, likely out of sight, before dropping. In other words, you may be crippling a lot more birds, you just might not realize that you are crippling them.

[gopher]

Smacking a wounded pair when everyone else's guns are empty is the most fun you can have in the pit.

Clean up shooter...

[Dick284]

I can't say I've harvested any more geese with 3.5's than I have 2-3/4's.
But I can say if you survive the time at the pattern board, and use shells that pattern well in your gun, you can stretch the range that you can bring down birds by about 20-30yds.

At the end of the day I still prefer the "where's my tennis racquet" kind of shoots. I'm more interested in hunt quality as opposed to downed quantity.

Better blinds, better use of decoys and calls, is what my fun is now about.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

I'm glad I wouldn't get to hunt with you guys....sound strung a little tight for me anyway.
For the record 60 yards shots are not the norm or goal but second or third pass or they flare when you know they are not going to commit..... absolutely....what's the problem with that?

Maybe not everyone is as elite as your guys where you won't shoot a bird if it cant be wing shot at 20 yards....I know I'm not ...and I never seem have problems finding people to join me.

x 2

Having the extra payload of a 3.5 should be seen as more ethical based on the arguements presented here. More pellets in the bird at any distance should result in less crippling loss. Maybe it should be mandated

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

x 2

Having the extra payload of a 3.5 should be seen as more ethical based on the arguements presented here. More pellets in the bird at any distance should result in less crippling loss. Maybe it should be mandated

If your theory is that more shot in the air means more shots delivered to the bird, your theory is badly flawed. A properly placed pattern from a 3" load, will put more shot on the bird than a poorly placed pattern from a 3-1/2" load. Improving your shooting will put more shot on the bird than using a larger load of shot will, but many people would rather throw more shot, than practise their shooting.If you want to mandate something to reduce cripples,make people qualify at sporting clays, before they are allowed to hunt.

[twofifty]

uh oh, there is elephant in the room.

[MathewsArcher]

If both are properly patterned and properly placed then the arguement does not hold. I thought most would have got the smiley as well

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If someone that I am hunting with is crippling a lot of birds, it won't matter to me if they are crippling birds at 30 yards or at 60 yards, I won't want to hunt with them again. As for having less cripples at 60 yards than at closer distances, I can only surmise that since the pellets have less energy at longer distances, the body shot cripples fly a lot farther, likely out of sight, before dropping. In other words, you may be crippling a lot more birds, you just might not realize that you are crippling them.

So then is your issue with the distance or crippling.

If I kill birds at 60 with a 3.5" just as well as someone with a 3" does at 40 then what's the big deal?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

So then is your issue with the distance or crippling.

If I kill birds at 60 with a 3.5" just as well as someone with a 3" does at 40 then what's the big deal?

Crippling! If you kill a bird with at least 75% of your shots, I don't have an issue with the shots that you choose to take. If you are closer to 50% or less, then you are likely leaving a lot of cripples.

[Benelli1]

Originally Posted by twofifty

uh oh, there is elephant in the room.

more like a ego

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by Dick284

At the end of the day I still prefer the "where's my tennis racquet" kind of shoots. I'm more interested in hunt quality as opposed to downed quantity.

Better blinds, better use of decoys and calls, is what my fun is now about.

That's my preference too


But there are always the shoots where the day you have off isn't ideal as there is no wind or it's a sunny mornings just tough days to get birds to set in the pocket.
My blind bag consists of mainly 3" #2's and #4's but I always have a box of 3.5" BB "just in case"

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Crippling! If you kill a bird with at least 75% of your shots, I don't have an issue with the shots that you choose to take. If you are closer to 50% or less, then you are likely leaving a lot of cripples.

Oh ok I misinterpreted what you meant.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If anyone hunting with us starts shooting at 60 or 70 yards, it will be their last hunt with us.

[Hunter Trav]

Originally Posted by wildside2014

Youre not hunting birds at 60 Mike. Youre skybusting. You would be in the vehicle as soon as you busted to 60 yards if you were in my pit man.

If you pattern your gun you can shoot birds effectively at 60yrds with a 3 1/2". I like to load them as my third shot just for that reason. You also need to know your leads, cause a 60 yrds lead is alot farther than most people think...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Oh ok I misinterpreted what you meant.

In our group nobody shoots before the person calling the shoot gives the command, and he won't be giving the command when the geese are at 60 yards.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

In our group nobody shoots before the person calling the shoot gives the command, and he won't be giving the command when the geese are at 60 yards.

Well yeah I would assume that since you only shoot 3" shells.

[SwampShark]

Hey guys - thanks for the info so far. I'm not going to touch the bird crippling discussion

I missed my chance at the Nova - seems the online Cabelas sale is over. I think I will go 3.5" just to have the option. As it seems is common with many of you , I don't plan on shooting 3.5" that much but if I can get a gun capable of it for the same price then why not?!

What is the difference between Moss 535 ATS and Moss 838 Ulti-Mag? It'll either be one of these or a Rem 870 Express 3.5. Unfortunately, I'm not going to drop the money right now for a Wingmaster.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Well yeah I would assume that since you only shoot 3" shells.

Nothing to do with the ammunition, we just prefer to avoid taking low percentage shots. Once a person gets past that stage where he feels that he has to fill every tag, or every bag limit, many people start choosing their shots more carefully.

[maverick21]

Look in to the winchester SXP. I prefer it over the 870. I cant comment on the others.