Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:59 PM
jip911 jip911 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Yes non time sensitive, yet major decisions could be discussed at the AGM. Then the 1% of the membership that actually bothers to show up at the AGM, could discuss it. But even then, there would be complaints from the 99%, that can't be bothered to show up at the AGM. As to having the opportunity to voice your opinion at a meeting, both clubs that I was on the executive of, have a monthly meeting, that all members can attend. Since nobody but the executive ever shows up, it ends up being the executive meeting as well. The complaints that we had about the steel core bullet ban at our range, were all from people that have never shown up at any meeting, and have never shown up at a range maintenance day. These people were invited to appear at a monthly meeting, but they couldn't be bothered.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree and that is fine, but I think your logic is very flawed (but consistent) with many volunteer based organizations.

YOU CHOOSE to volunteer YOUR time to whatever organizations you wish. Your RESPONSIBILITY in CHOOSING to take on that role is to represent the MEMBERSHIP. Full Stop... nothing more needs to be said... that is why the position is an elected position and not a dictated one. It is not (as said before) to foster any one persons agenda be it executive or member... It does not give you any special rights in deciding what the membership wants... It is about representing the 4k plus members. In this day and age I can list 20 ways to obtain feedback from a membership without them being present in a room with you and again it is a requirement of the position to obtain such feedback to make important decisions on what the MEMBERSHIP want.

Your comments about not receiving enough volunteers are bitter and somehow make you feel entitled to some additional power because YOU CHOOSE to volunteer... I have yet to see an organization take a different approach to this matter instead of being bitter try something like this:

Determine how many volunteer hours are needed per year to accomplish whatever activities are required. lets say 2000hrs for sake of argument. If the club had to pay someone to complete this work it will say cost $25.00 per hour so you need 50K worth of volunteer hours. With a club of 4k plus people each member needs to donate 1/2 hour per year... given the fact that historically a very small percentage of the membership will actually volunteer on clean-up days you up the membership costs by 50k/4k members = $12.50 per year. If a member shows up to volunteer you either re-reimburse him/her $12.50 or apply it to there next years membership fees.

There is no need to be bitter, I work out of province 220+ days a year and volunteer for things to support my children along with days worked in province and trying to take a day off here and there... I would gladly pay an additional $12.50 on my range membership to cover my absence in volunteering, for those who don't like the $12.50 charge they can show up on range day. Win/Win.

No one is saying the exec team should have to run routine day to day decisions by the membership ie. if they are going to mow the grass once or twice a week but it is your duty and responsibility to discuss larger decisions with the membership. If you don't think this is necessary you should really read up on what the "Job Description" and responsibilities of elected folks are and determine if you should continue to CHOOSE to be in that position.

J
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:33 PM
pikergolf's Avatar
pikergolf pikergolf is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jip911 View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree and that is fine, but I think your logic is very flawed (but consistent) with many volunteer based organizations.

YOU CHOOSE to volunteer YOUR time to whatever organizations you wish. Your RESPONSIBILITY in CHOOSING to take on that role is to represent the MEMBERSHIP. Full Stop... nothing more needs to be said... that is why the position is an elected position and not a dictated one. It is not (as said before) to foster any one persons agenda be it executive or member... It does not give you any special rights in deciding what the membership wants... It is about representing the 4k plus members. In this day and age I can list 20 ways to obtain feedback from a membership without them being present in a room with you and again it is a requirement of the position to obtain such feedback to make important decisions on what the MEMBERSHIP want.

Your comments about not receiving enough volunteers are bitter and somehow make you feel entitled to some additional power because YOU CHOOSE to volunteer... I have yet to see an organization take a different approach to this matter instead of being bitter try something like this:

Determine how many volunteer hours are needed per year to accomplish whatever activities are required. lets say 2000hrs for sake of argument. If the club had to pay someone to complete this work it will say cost $25.00 per hour so you need 50K worth of volunteer hours. With a club of 4k plus people each member needs to donate 1/2 hour per year... given the fact that historically a very small percentage of the membership will actually volunteer on clean-up days you up the membership costs by 50k/4k members = $12.50 per year. If a member shows up to volunteer you either re-reimburse him/her $12.50 or apply it to there next years membership fees.

There is no need to be bitter, I work out of province 220+ days a year and volunteer for things to support my children along with days worked in province and trying to take a day off here and there... I would gladly pay an additional $12.50 on my range membership to cover my absence in volunteering, for those who don't like the $12.50 charge they can show up on range day. Win/Win.

No one is saying the exec team should have to run routine day to day decisions by the membership ie. if they are going to mow the grass once or twice a week but it is your duty and responsibility to discuss larger decisions with the membership. If you don't think this is necessary you should really read up on what the "Job Description" and responsibilities of elected folks are and determine if you should continue to CHOOSE to be in that position.

J
Maybe you should get involved instead of thinking your money will suffice.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”

Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:40 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jip911 View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree and that is fine, but I think your logic is very flawed (but consistent) with many volunteer based organizations.

YOU CHOOSE to volunteer YOUR time to whatever organizations you wish. Your RESPONSIBILITY in CHOOSING to take on that role is to represent the MEMBERSHIP. Full Stop... nothing more needs to be said... that is why the position is an elected position and not a dictated one. It is not (as said before) to foster any one persons agenda be it executive or member... It does not give you any special rights in deciding what the membership wants... It is about representing the 4k plus members. In this day and age I can list 20 ways to obtain feedback from a membership without them being present in a room with you and again it is a requirement of the position to obtain such feedback to make important decisions on what the MEMBERSHIP want.

Your comments about not receiving enough volunteers are bitter and somehow make you feel entitled to some additional power because YOU CHOOSE to volunteer... I have yet to see an organization take a different approach to this matter instead of being bitter try something like this:

Determine how many volunteer hours are needed per year to accomplish whatever activities are required. lets say 2000hrs for sake of argument. If the club had to pay someone to complete this work it will say cost $25.00 per hour so you need 50K worth of volunteer hours. With a club of 4k plus people each member needs to donate 1/2 hour per year... given the fact that historically a very small percentage of the membership will actually volunteer on clean-up days you up the membership costs by 50k/4k members = $12.50 per year. If a member shows up to volunteer you either re-reimburse him/her $12.50 or apply it to there next years membership fees.

There is no need to be bitter, I work out of province 220+ days a year and volunteer for things to support my children along with days worked in province and trying to take a day off here and there... I would gladly pay an additional $12.50 on my range membership to cover my absence in volunteering, for those who don't like the $12.50 charge they can show up on range day. Win/Win.

No one is saying the exec team should have to run routine day to day decisions by the membership ie. if they are going to mow the grass once or twice a week but it is your duty and responsibility to discuss larger decisions with the membership. If you don't think this is necessary you should really read up on what the "Job Description" and responsibilities of elected folks are and determine if you should continue to CHOOSE to be in that position.

J
I am not bitter, I am realistic, if you elect someone to represent the membership, you trust them to make decisions in the best interest of the membership. That does not include polling the membership every time a decision needs to be made. To do so greatly increases the work load of the volunteers, and it delays actions which may need to be made in a timely manner. If you polled 4000 members, how long would it take to read and tally 4000 responses? The executive doesn't want or need to spend this time, just so someone that can't be bothered to attend a meeting can have his say. As to your silly way of calculating the volunteer hours required, it is laughable at best. I have been a member where volunteers receive membership discounts, and it creates more headaches than it is worth. To start with, if you used a number like 1/2 hour, or even an hour, by the time you get your volunteers actually working, the 1/2 hour or hour would expire, and many would leave, having accomplished nothing. And then you would need timekeepers to see that everyone is actually working, not just standing around visiting, as often happens. And then the whiners would complain, when they didn't get credit, because the didn't actually work. More effort gets wasted trying to keep some people working, than the results you get from those people. In the end, we gave up on credits for volunteer work, because it was too much hassle, and too many people became upset. At my present range, volunteers show up, because they want to volunteer, and they work , with nobody having to monitor them. The number of volunteers is small, but we get enough done to keep operating. And when the job is too large for volunteers , or the job must be done quickly, we hire someone to do it. If that drives up our costs, and we need more income to cover them, we raise the membership rate. If you don't like the way that the executive runs your range, then volunteer yourself, or find someone else to run that you trust.As I mentioned in a previous post, my former range recruited enough volunteers to replace the entire previous executive, to get rid of an abusive regime. It can be done, if you really feel that the executive is doing a poor job.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:41 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
Maybe you should get involved instead of thinking your money will suffice.
That is how you accomplish change, if you feel that it is required.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:57 PM
catnthehat's Avatar
catnthehat catnthehat is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darren32 View Post
That seems pretty discriminatory to be!
Why allow cowbiy action but ban IPSC shooters?
I suppose three gun is not allowed either?
I have no dog in this fight but at one time fix compete in IPSC and it is a very safe discipline .
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:39 PM
Mulehahn Mulehahn is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 908
Default

The AGM is 3 weeks away but these issues were deemed so pressing that that they had to be brought up, voted on and enforced immediately? I am sorry, but that sounds off to me

The club is allowing a 9 month (approximately) extension to allow members to use up steel ammunition so obviously at least one of the issues was not an immediate concern. But there are numerous other disciplines, many growing much faster than cowboy action, that require a holster yet they get no say.

At the clubs I belong to any issues that would affect the membership at large, such as these, is outlined in the General Meeting Agenda and emailed out a minimum one week before the meeting. More than likely no one will show, but they had the opportunity! That right there is the key. Any member could of said something. Now right or wrong for the club, it makes the places the executive in a bad light in my opinion.

I do not believe it is the executive's sole job to represent the Membership. It is the executive's job to represent the CLUB. That includes the membership, but also the facilities, its public perception, its funding, and more. I have no idea if these were the right decisions for the SPFGA but, in my opinion, they way this was handled and addressed they let the Club down.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:39 PM
jip911 jip911 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
Maybe you should get involved instead of thinking your money will suffice.
Maybe you should read to comprehend instead of shooting shots across the bow. My money will suffice in hiring someone to complete tasks I do not have time to volunteer for... Just like I pay a gasfitter to run my gas line when I don't have time regardless of the fact I have 3 trades tickets in my pocket...

Is it really this hard to comprehend that you are CHOOSING to represent the membership so therefore need there input in important club decisions? No one is saying every decision needs to be run my the membership

J
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:45 PM
pikergolf's Avatar
pikergolf pikergolf is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jip911 View Post
Maybe you should read to comprehend instead of shooting shots across the bow. My money will suffice in hiring someone to complete tasks I do not have time to volunteer for... Just like I pay a gasfitter to run my gas line when I don't have time regardless of the fact I have 3 trades tickets in my pocket...

Is it really this hard to comprehend that you are CHOOSING to represent the membership so therefore need there input in important club decisions? No one is saying every decision needs to be run my the membership

J
The 12.50 you mentioned hardly covers anything, hell for 12.50 I don't want to do anything either and I would guess no one else does either. YOU choose to be away from your family,YOU choose the job you have. YOU want the life style your wage affords you. Life is choices, your choices are not as heroic as you think they are. Money is not a replacement for being present.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”

Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:58 PM
jip911 jip911 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I am not bitter, I am realistic, if you elect someone to represent the membership, you trust them to make decisions in the best interest of the membership. That does not include polling the membership every time a decision needs to be made. To do so greatly increases the work load of the volunteers, and it delays actions which may need to be made in a timely manner. If you polled 4000 members, how long would it take to read and tally 4000 responses? The executive doesn't want or need to spend this time, just so someone that can't be bothered to attend a meeting can have his say. As to your silly way of calculating the volunteer hours required, it is laughable at best. I have been a member where volunteers receive membership discounts, and it creates more headaches than it is worth. To start with, if you used a number like 1/2 hour, or even an hour, by the time you get your volunteers actually working, the 1/2 hour or hour would expire, and many would leave, having accomplished nothing. And then you would need timekeepers to see that everyone is actually working, not just standing around visiting, as often happens. And then the whiners would complain, when they didn't get credit, because the didn't actually work. More effort gets wasted trying to keep some people working, than the results you get from those people. In the end, we gave up on credits for volunteer work, because it was too much hassle, and too many people became upset. At my present range, volunteers show up, because they want to volunteer, and they work , with nobody having to monitor them. The number of volunteers is small, but we get enough done to keep operating. And when the job is too large for volunteers , or the job must be done quickly, we hire someone to do it. If that drives up our costs, and we need more income to cover them, we raise the membership rate. If you don't like the way that the executive runs your range, then volunteer yourself, or find someone else to run that you trust.As I mentioned in a previous post, my former range recruited enough volunteers to replace the entire previous executive, to get rid of an abusive regime. It can be done, if you really feel that the executive is doing a poor job.
I don't know how to be any clearer in my message but will give it one last try... No one is saying every decision should or has to be run by the membership. As you have stated already, this would create a huge bottleneck and nothing would get accomplished. Larger decisions that are NOT time or safety sensitive should be run by the membership. Larger decisions that ARE time sensitive SHOULD be made by the Executive and represent the best interests of the club. The membership should be entitled to an explanation why these decisions needed to made and what reasoning went into the decision... Again the membership is shareholders and the exec is the board....

You seem well versed on typing onto this forum so I "find it laughable at best" that you think I am suggesting some type of mail in ballot that is manually counted. We have a web page and facebook page and online polls are free and easy to set up... set the polling question and response and set a cut off date and the machine does the rest... we could have answered 10 online polls in the time we have been exchanging thoughts on the forum.

this is not 1985 and tracking who shows up for volunteer activities and how long they stay for is 2 clicks of a mouse on the card scanner software we use to track who has entered the facility and how long they stayed.. no one is going to drive 1hr plus on a closed range day to save $12.50... the few who do show up will be there to work and the funds generated from those who don't show can be utilized for the services required.

I appreciate your comments and like I said before, let's agree to disagree on this matter.

J
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:05 PM
jip911 jip911 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
The 12.50 you mentioned hardly covers anything, hell for 12.50 I don't want to do anything either and I would guess no one else does either. YOU choose to be away from your family,YOU choose the job you have. YOU want the life style your wage affords you. Life is choices, your choices are not as heroic as you think they are. Money is not a replacement for being present.
$12.50 x 4k plus members is $50,000.00 It is volunteer positions we are talking about... it does NOT give you any special entitlement or allow you to change the job description you are volunteering to fulfill... If I volunteer to coach my son's hockey team, does that allow me to change the rules of the game? Should my son get all the ice time because none of the other parents VOLUNTEERED to take on the role?

J
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:07 PM
pikergolf's Avatar
pikergolf pikergolf is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jip911 View Post
$12.50 x 4k plus members is $50,000.00 It is volunteer positions we are talking about... it does NOT give you any special entitlement or allow you to change the job description you are volunteering to fulfill... If I volunteer to coach my son's hockey team, does that allow me to change the rules of the game? Should my son get all the ice time because none of the other parents VOLUNTEERED to take on the role?

J
And what do you think 50 grand buy you for work? Certainly not anywhere near what volunteers do as a group.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”

Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:24 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jip911 View Post
I don't know how to be any clearer in my message but will give it one last try... No one is saying every decision should or has to be run by the membership. As you have stated already, this would create a huge bottleneck and nothing would get accomplished. Larger decisions that are NOT time or safety sensitive should be run by the membership. Larger decisions that ARE time sensitive SHOULD be made by the Executive and represent the best interests of the club. The membership should be entitled to an explanation why these decisions needed to made and what reasoning went into the decision... Again the membership is shareholders and the exec is the board....

You seem well versed on typing onto this forum so I "find it laughable at best" that you think I am suggesting some type of mail in ballot that is manually counted. We have a web page and facebook page and online polls are free and easy to set up... set the polling question and response and set a cut off date and the machine does the rest... we could have answered 10 online polls in the time we have been exchanging thoughts on the forum.

this is not 1985 and tracking who shows up for volunteer activities and how long they stay for is 2 clicks of a mouse on the card scanner software we use to track who has entered the facility and how long they stayed.. no one is going to drive 1hr plus on a closed range day to save $12.50... the few who do show up will be there to work and the funds generated from those who don't show can be utilized for the services required.

I appreciate your comments and like I said before, let's agree to disagree on this matter.

J
So you are going to use the swipe in and swipe out times to determine who actually did any work? That is truly asinine. That would be like using swipe cards to determine if your employees are actually working, or if they are spending their time smoking and drinking coffee, or visiting, or are on their phones, instead of working. I speak from actual experience in a supervisory position. As far as polls go, somebody still has to draft the wording of the poll, and enter it, and then gather the results. It still adds up to more work for the volunteers , that are doing the work that you won't do. As to which issues are important enough to poll on, who determines that? What is important to one person, is not important to others.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 11-20-2018, 07:54 PM
Bushrat's Avatar
Bushrat Bushrat is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,898
Default

Perhaps they are responding to the wishes of the membership and banning holsters because of membership wishes.

I don't know about Sherwood Park but most clubs, especially small ones traditionally have been run by those who have time to volunteer. Most policy is made by members who show up and give their input whether at meetings or by personal contact with executive at club functions, work parties, etc. There can be many reasons for this policy, sometimes it comes down to monitoring who is certified to use a holster, can the club find volunteers or afford to pay people to be range officers to monitor who is and who isn't. Perhaps the club is faced with increased insurance premiums if they allow holster use. Holster users are a minority at most ranges. How interested is the general membership in paying an increased membership just because some members want to use holsters, shoot steel core, shoot 50 cal rifles or use tannerite, etc., etc. There are reasons this rule is being imposed. They might not be good reasons or they may be quite logical, we can only speculate as are not privy to them. In this world of lawyers, liabilities, responsibilities, executives can be held personally liable and sued if a club policy results in injury or death unless all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. Trying to get members to adhere to rules is like herding cats. Executive of gun clubs are very aware of that and sometimes to prevent the club and executive from being liable for what possibly could go wrong they make blanket rules just to cover their and the clubs ass. Usually these rules are not popular with some of the membership.

Anyway the world is run by whoever shows up and so are gun clubs and every other club or service organization, there will always be those unhappy with how things are being done. If you don't like it gather your people, get behind the podium and make changes to the executive at the next meeting. Then you can have your turn at facing all the people you **** off with the decisions you make.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 11-20-2018, 09:41 PM
jip911 jip911 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
So you are going to use the swipe in and swipe out times to determine who actually did any work? That is truly asinine. That would be like using swipe cards to determine if your employees are actually working, or if they are spending their time smoking and drinking coffee, or visiting, or are on their phones, instead of working. I speak from actual experience in a supervisory position. As far as polls go, somebody still has to draft the wording of the poll, and enter it, and then gather the results. It still adds up to more work for the volunteers , that are doing the work that you won't do. As to which issues are important enough to poll on, who determines that? What is important to one person, is not important to others.
Again, think my message missed the mark... As a Sr Manager with more than a Billion dollars of project work and a weekly operating budget in the millions, I bow to your "actual experience in a supervisory role" any good leader is well aware of the limitations of any plan and builds contingency for these matters...
How many people are you aware of that will drive an hour to save $12.50? The folks who attend are there to volunteer... The few that arrive by mistake thinking the range is open will either be ****ed off they wasted there time driving out or chip in and help. For the few that want to cheat the system you accept this and build contingency in your budget.

This isn't a workplace and to suggest they are the same is Asinine...

To the comment that 50k isn't enough, well that is 2k hours of work, if range day typically has 40 volunteers for an 8 hour hitch that's 320 hours so we are talking 6 full days with 40 members... The point being it doesn't matter if you need 50k or 200k to replace the volunteers. You are allowing each member to decide to participate or pay for their absence.

Having time to donate is a choice, period. It doesn't come with any special privileges no matter how you spin it.

As this will be my last post on this matter as I am sure folks are tired of hearing the 3 of us sharing our opinions. For the record..
The SPFGA is a fabulous facility and would not be what it is without the countless thankless hours donated by the executive. As I have stated already, there are hundreds of decisions being made behind the scenes that each contribute to that success. I have done my homework and confirmed with members of the executive that there were no incidents, new liabilities, or changes that precipitated this decision. It is my opinion that this decision should have been voted on by the membership as no extenuating circumstances were present requiring a decision to be made without consultation.

I am disappointed but not surprised by a few members who chimed in that volunteering somehow equates to entitlement. Their comments do not reflect everyone who volunteers on the SPFGA and I am pleased to have exchanged some emails with folks who understand their responsibilities and recognize the importance of consulting the membership on important matters.

Cheers, feel free to PM me if necessary.

J
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 11-20-2018, 09:59 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jip911 View Post
Again, think my message missed the mark... As a Sr Manager with more than a Billion dollars of project work and a weekly operating budget in the millions, I bow to your "actual experience in a supervisory role" any good leader is well aware of the limitations of any plan and builds contingency for these matters...
How many people are you aware of that will drive an hour to save $12.50? The folks who attend are there to volunteer... The few that arrive by mistake thinking the range is open will either be ****ed off they wasted there time driving out or chip in and help. For the few that want to cheat the system you accept this and build contingency in your budget.

This isn't a workplace and to suggest they are the same is Asinine...

To the comment that 50k isn't enough, well that is 2k hours of work, if range day typically has 40 volunteers for an 8 hour hitch that's 320 hours so we are talking 6 full days with 40 members... The point being it doesn't matter if you need 50k or 200k to replace the volunteers. You are allowing each member to decide to participate or pay for their absence.

Having time to donate is a choice, period. It doesn't come with any special privileges no matter how you spin it.

As this will be my last post on this matter as I am sure folks are tired of hearing the 3 of us sharing our opinions. For the record..
The SPFGA is a fabulous facility and would not be what it is without the countless thankless hours donated by the executive. As I have stated already, there are hundreds of decisions being made behind the scenes that each contribute to that success. I have done my homework and confirmed with members of the executive that there were no incidents, new liabilities, or changes that precipitated this decision. It is my opinion that this decision should have been voted on by the membership as no extenuating circumstances were present requiring a decision to be made without consultation.

I am disappointed but not surprised by a few members who chimed in that volunteering somehow equates to entitlement. Their comments do not reflect everyone who volunteers on the SPFGA and I am pleased to have exchanged some emails with folks who understand their responsibilities and recognize the importance of consulting the membership on important matters.

Cheers, feel free to PM me if necessary.

J
I never suggested that volunteering adds any entitlement, because it doesn't. It adds responsibility , and extra work, that people like yourself are not willing to accept. And with that responsibility comes decisions that are made on behalf of the membership, and that often results in some people whining about the decisions that are made, even though they often have no idea why the decision was made. But that is today's society, I paid my money for a membership, so I shouldn't have to do anything else. But somebody else should volunteer to do the things that I am not prepared to do, because my time is more important than their time. And if I don't like their decisions, then they need to justify their decisions to me.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 11-20-2018, 10:51 PM
338Bluff 338Bluff is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,844
Default

I'm finding it a little hard to follow that this change was made with no incident or concern to precipitate it. Just because makes no sense.

Ease up on the executive. They are elected to make the day to day decisions. If someone felt strongly enough that decision was made for the wrong reason, go to the AGM and get it back on the table.

It is not feasible to get constant feedback on every decision.
__________________
You can't spend your way out of target panic......trust me.

Last edited by 338Bluff; 11-20-2018 at 11:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 11-21-2018, 02:45 PM
Purple Farmer Purple Farmer is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,382
Default

I am not a member, I have used the range once and it's a great facility where "pride of ownership" shows very clearly.

I think there are some misconceptions with what the Executives role is, there role is to make decisions that are in the best interest of the club/Association and therefore for the majority of the membership.

I see this decision as a smart and frankly common sense decision to benefit the long term prospects of the club and to ensure it's survival. Members unhappy with this will likely be unhappy with many more that will come in the next few years.

Ranges/clubs/Associations are increasingly under pressure from multiple levels of government, the general public and often the minority of their own membership.

The success of the ranges is going to replicate the future of gun ownership in our country.

Choose your battles wisely.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11-21-2018, 07:34 PM
CNP's Avatar
CNP CNP is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: WMU 303
Posts: 8,480
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Farmer View Post
I am not a member, I have used the range once and it's a great facility where "pride of ownership" shows very clearly.

I think there are some misconceptions with what the Executives role is, there role is to make decisions that are in the best interest of the club/Association and therefore for the majority of the membership.

I see this decision as a smart and frankly common sense decision to benefit the long term prospects of the club and to ensure it's survival. Members unhappy with this will likely be unhappy with many more that will come in the next few years.

Ranges/clubs/Associations are increasingly under pressure from multiple levels of government, the general public and often the minority of their own membership.

The success of the ranges is going to replicate the future of gun ownership in our country.

Choose your battles wisely.
You're not a member, you have used the facility once and you believe that the holster prohibition is smart and frankly common sense decision to benefit long term prospects of the club and ensure it's survival? Prohibiting holsters will do that? What do you know about the holster prohibition? Anything?
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11-22-2018, 08:27 AM
ghostguy6's Avatar
ghostguy6 ghostguy6 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: edmonton
Posts: 3,116
Default

The steel core ammo ban I can understand but the holster part I can not. If it was a safety issue then all holsters would have been banned.

Last night I tried holstering and upholstering a loaded airsoft replica with a faulty safety several times and could only get it to discharge when I did something incredibly stupid. Something like speed holstering with a round chambered, safety off and trigger finger on the trigger. Even then most of the time I was able to feel my trigger finger hit the holster before the trigger was pulled far enough to cause a discharge. Not once was I able to shoot myself directly. Although if it were a real bullet fragmenting upon impact to the ground I probably would have caught some shrapnel in my foot.
__________________
" Everything in life that I enjoy is either illegal, immoral, fattening or causes cancer!"

"The problem was this little thing called the government and laws."
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 11-22-2018, 09:21 AM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostguy6 View Post
Even then most of the time I was able to feel my trigger finger hit the holster before the trigger was pulled far enough to cause a discharge. Not once was I able to shoot myself directly. Although if it were a real bullet fragmenting upon impact to the ground I probably would have caught some shrapnel in my foot.
what are you trying to argue? you should just take this down.

you weren't able to directly shoot yourself, only indirectly...

plus you're saying that you are sending some very fast lead somewhere not down range.

on top of it all everyone knows triggers suck on airsoft pistols any good trigger on a real firearm goes off with 1/10 the movement and force of those.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 11-22-2018, 11:56 AM
Jack Hardin Jack Hardin is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,103
Default

When not in use, guns belong in a holster. That is why holsters are the safest way to carry a sidearm.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 11-22-2018, 12:20 PM
ghostguy6's Avatar
ghostguy6 ghostguy6 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: edmonton
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o View Post
what are you trying to argue? you should just take this down.

you weren't able to directly shoot yourself, only indirectly...

plus you're saying that you are sending some very fast lead somewhere not down range.

on top of it all everyone knows triggers suck on airsoft pistols any good trigger on a real firearm goes off with 1/10 the movement and force of those.
What I was saying is I was only able to create an accidental discharge by doing something very stupid, something no competent shooter should ever be able to do, let alone under normal range conditions. As for the lead going somewhere not down range, an accidental discharge could send lead anywhere. My test was to replicate the safety of the holster, using a holster properly keeps the barrel pointed away from anyone.
__________________
" Everything in life that I enjoy is either illegal, immoral, fattening or causes cancer!"

"The problem was this little thing called the government and laws."
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 11-22-2018, 12:57 PM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,230
Default handgun holsters

No holsters at range, no more ATC's. This restriction will be playing into the Libs get rid of handguns, what next?
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 11-22-2018, 01:12 PM
Purple Farmer Purple Farmer is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNP View Post
You're not a member, you have used the facility once and you believe that the holster prohibition is smart and frankly common sense decision to benefit long term prospects of the club and ensure it's survival? Prohibiting holsters will do that? What do you know about the holster prohibition? Anything?
I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion. To answer your questions, Yes - that's why I wrote it. Yes. Enough. Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 11-22-2018, 01:36 PM
qwert qwert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,443
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hardin View Post
When not in use, guns belong in a holster. That is why holsters are the safest way to carry a sidearm.
Bingo!
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 11-22-2018, 01:43 PM
catnthehat's Avatar
catnthehat catnthehat is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hardin View Post
When not in use, guns belong in a holster. That is why holsters are the safest way to carry a sidearm.
ISU slow fire timed fire , sport pistols and freestyle pistols were never designed to be holstered when not on use.
They sit in a pistol box when not being used - just sayin’
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 11-22-2018, 08:02 PM
topgenorth topgenorth is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Farmer View Post
I am not a member, I have used the range once
To clarify: you're not a member and you were shooting on the range?
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 11-22-2018, 09:55 PM
CNP's Avatar
CNP CNP is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: WMU 303
Posts: 8,480
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Farmer View Post
I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion. To answer your questions, Yes - that's why I wrote it. Yes. Enough. Yes.
I can respect your opinion but does your opinion have any merit? How will a holster prohibition do any of the things you say it will do? Really, I'd like to know.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 11-22-2018, 10:39 PM
AI 6.5 AI 6.5 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Edmonton/San Tan Valley,Arizona
Posts: 785
Default

I'd like to know the rationale behind the holster ban. If you are going to ban something, provide reasons for it. The email I got didn't specify.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 11-23-2018, 08:20 AM
Alephnaught Alephnaught is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 133
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AI 6.5 View Post
I'd like to know the rationale behind the holster ban. If you are going to ban something, provide reasons for it. The email I got didn't specify.
Myself as well. Seems to me there were no good reasons. I will be going to the AGM. Not just there too gripe tho, I'm gonna make sure I'm on that council. No way stuff like this should be decided for us without askin us.

I suggest you do the same Dec 6 Thur 7:30 pm in Sherwood Park at Old Log CAbin
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.