Different bullets impact

[Fordevr]

I just shot 5 Hornady NTX 24 gr and 3 Hornady 32 gr vmax and the results surprised me. Both targets were shot within 5 mins so conditions were very similar. There was a wind from left to right but very light. I was surprised to see that the 32's impacted 2 inches right of the 24's. Both have very similar ballistics to 300 yards. Any ideas? Doesn't matter I was just surprised. I ran out of 32 vmax so I was only able to shot 3 of them. Rock steady on a sled.

[wwbirds]

no group on either to draw any conclusions from. On a rifle as inherently accurate as a 204 I would expect a 5 shot group within 1.5-2 inches with average equipment or shooting with a good chance of 1 inch or a bit at 200 yards. Spread all over like that indicates bigger problems than POI changes from variations in bullet weight.

[fps plus]

Different bullets create different barrel harmonics and as you can see the bullets are releasing out of the barrel at ever so slightly a position of the frequency node

[bucknaked333]

I seen a huge jump on my 300wsm. I was using 165gr gmx and switched to 200gr ttsx. I t jumped 12" left at a 100 yards, Both were 1 moa groups. I was hunting buffalo and didn't want to buy a new gun, the reason for the switch.

[Mr.Crumbz]

As others have said its just harmonics.

I was just at the range the other day working up some loads with 150gr TTSX's and 147gr FMJ's. With different charges for both projectiles the POI raised with charge increase (to be expected). But I was surprised to see a difference of over 4" left to right for POI between projectiles at 100 meters.

[Flight01]

Those two targets are inconclusive. Can't say what's going on.
But yes harmonics of different loads do weird things. Even some hotter or lighter loads will sometimes print lower than standard loads. Left and right is common too.
My most exaggerated example was 165grain Sierra gkbt hitting poa at 200 yards and 150 federal blue box hitting 3" low and 4" right. Both grouping just over 2"
My 308 didn't like anything in 180 grains. Groups were close to 3" at 100 yards with 180 blue box and way high and right.
Every round has its own characteristics. I think that's what you were seeing.
Range test and verify every type of ammo , it's a good practice.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by fps plus

Different bullets create different barrel harmonics and as you can see the bullets are releasing out of the barrel at ever so slightly a position of the frequency node

You are partially correct fps plus. Different bullets do NOT cause different harmonics. The barrel harmonics are are function of the barrel mass. Diameter, length and what pressures are imparted upward from the stock if it is not free-floated. The firing of the bullet is known as the "forcing impact". However, you are correct in stating that the bullets will exit the barrels at varied nodes, both vertical and horizontal. Reason being that some bullets depending on initial velocity will exit the barrel at a different nodal position of the muzzle end.

And to Fordver, your 2 bullets obviously travel at different muzzle velocities. Thus each exits the muzzle end at a different nodal position. Thus your target results. What you experience is not unusual and totally explainable.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

You are partially correct fps plus. Different bullets do NOT cause different harmonics. The barrel harmonics are are function of the barrel mass. Diameter, length and what pressures are imparted upward from the stock if it is not free-floated. The firing of the bullet is known as the "forcing impact". However, you are correct in stating that the bullets will exit the barrels at varied nodes, both vertical and horizontal. Reason being that some bullets depending on initial velocity will exit the barrel at a different nodal position of the muzzle end.

And to Fordver, your 2 bullets obviously travel at different muzzle velocities. Thus each exits the muzzle end at a different nodal position. Thus your target results. What you experience is not unusual and totally explainable.

Even thought it says the same speed on the box? Both boxes say 4225fps

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by Flight01

Those two targets are inconclusive. Can't say what's going on.
But yes harmonics of different loads do weird things. Even some hotter or lighter loads will sometimes print lower than standard loads. Left and right is common too.
My most exaggerated example was 165grain Sierra gkbt hitting poa at 200 yards and 150 federal blue box hitting 3" low and 4" right. Both grouping just over 2"
My 308 didn't like anything in 180 grains. Groups were close to 3" at 100 yards with 180 blue box and way high and right.
Every round has its own characteristics. I think that's what you were seeing.
Range test and verify every type of ammo , it's a good practice.

What additional info is needed?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

Even thought it says the same speed on the box? Both boxes say 4225fps

Take any velocity numbers printed on an ammunition box , or in a loading manual as a rough estimate. Firearms vary in chamber and barrel dimensions, which effects the velocity. As for the different points of impact, 2" isn't a lot, and it doesn't mean that anything is wrong with the firearm or the ammunition. The pressure curve is likely different, and the velocity may be different as well, so the harmonics will be different.

[32-40win]

If you were to chrono those factory rounds it wouldn't surprise me to see 2-300fps difference from what the box states. A lot depends on the gun, as to what velocities you will get out of it, and then varying lots of ammo, within one bullet weight. Switching bullet weights and ammo brands will change things again. I've had factory stuff that was close to advertised, slower, faster, and then turned out handloads for the same gun, that were up to 300fps faster than the factory load I had, in the same brass, with the same bullet, with no pressure issues, and that handload, was 100fps faster, than what the box said the factory load was supposed to be.
Don't believe what you see on the box.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

Even thought it says the same speed on the box? Both boxes say 4225fps

Lol...the box lies to you!

LC

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

I just shot 5 Hornady NTX 24 gr and 3 Hornady 32 gr vmax and the results surprised me. Both targets were shot within 5 mins so conditions were very similar. There was a wind from left to right but very light. I was surprised to see that the 32's impacted 2 inches right of the 24's. Both have very similar ballistics to 300 yards. Any ideas? Doesn't matter I was just surprised. I ran out of 32 vmax so I was only able to shot 3 of them. Rock steady on a sled.

Throw away your sled and watch groups shrink. Rocky steady isn't as precise as allowing rifle to recoil on bags.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

Even thought it says the same speed on the box? Both boxes say 4225fps

Fake news. Shoot that ammo over a good chrono and see for yourself.

[jednastka]

I'll first start by saying I am no expert. When I bought my Browning ABolt in 270WIN to replace the 303 Enflield that I had shot for decades, the only thing that I knew was that different bullet types, weights, and loads can behave very differently.

I bought 1 box of each 270WIN brand & load that I could find (some 20 different ones), and went to the range. Over a month, I kept data on each load, firing 5 shot groups at 100 yards, with cooldown time between shots. I did not adjust the scope from my initial setting, and aimed at the centre of my target. When I finally looked at the data, it was amazing. Some loads patterned very well (all shots within 1.5 inches, some about 1 inch for 5 shots), others were unbelievable. The worst was almost 8 inches. A pie plate barely covered it. What was also very interesting, is that even the best patterns were in different areas. The box (20 shots, 4-five shot groups on four different targets) of Fusion 130 grain had all 20 shots within 1.25 inches, but the pattern was centered 3.5 inches high and 2.5 inches to the right. Winchester 150 grain also patterned well, at lest than 1.5 inches for all 20 shots, but 6 inches low, and 5.5 inches to the left. A very significant difference when compared to the Fusion load. I chose the Fusion, and then adjusted the pattern to get 3 inches high dead centre at 100 yards. I now only shoot this load.

A related story. A good buddy shot a 30-06. He had a favourite load for each major game animal. I knew him as an excellent, very accurate shot. We were out on stand one wintery November morning. I had a cow moose draw for the area, he was after the monster whitetail we had seen in September. About an hour after sunrise, I heard 5, well-spaced shots from the area of his stand. When we met back at the truck, I asked what happened. He told me the monster had stepped out at about 190 yards and stopped. He calmly fired 5 shots while the deer never moved. It then was gone like a flash. He went to the spot, no blood, but could see where his bullets had hit the ground almost under the deer. He went back to his stand, looked at the fired brass, and realized all five shots were his 200 grain moose load, not the 135 grain deer load. From that time on, I've only ever shot one load.

Vic

[Fordevr]

Very great info from everyone. Really appreciate the feed back. I ran my town outta my favorite .32vmax so decided to try some 40 gr vmax...I might have to switch. After a few shots to see the difference in height between the 24's and 40's I dialled 3 clicks up and shot this at 200yrds with the 40's. Just for the record. I LOVE MY TIKKA T3 .204 heavy barrel Varmint!!!

[Fordevr]

On a side note I really like this site for making your own targets.

www.PrintTargets.net

[densa44]

I think that rifle will shoot one hole groups. Do you have a place that you can practice? Keep at it and think about reloading. The rub is with a rifle like that you will always get advice from guys like me that the groups can be smaller, then we'll want the range increased.

My wife shoots a savage and I reload, the caliber is truely amazing.

Thanks for the pictures. When your shooting improves, and the more you shoot the better you'll get, we'd like to see more of the harmonic effects of different bullet weights on a heavy barrel.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by densa44

I think that rifle will shoot one hole groups. Do you have a place that you can practice? Keep at it and think about reloading. The rub is with a rifle like that you will always get advice from guys like me that the groups can be smaller, then we'll want the range increased.

My wife shoots a savage and I reload, the caliber is truely amazing.

Thanks for the pictures. When your shooting improves, and the more you shoot the better you'll get, we'd like to see more of the harmonic effects of different bullet weights on a heavy barrel.

I purchased 32vmax bullets and superformance powder cause I'm thinking of trying reloads. Have once fired brass and primers. Just need to get one of my buddies to help me out with it. One of them shoots competition 1000yrds. The .204 shoots so well with factory I might save the reloading for the .243

[58thecat]

Rifle no likey the one type which isn't all that common.

[Dick284]

Here's the test loads I just did for a new .22 my son bought.
These are at 50 yds.

There are 3 repeat grouping on the second from top row, of the most respectful first attempts.



Most of the brands are short hand written but note how the results vary even laterally! Yes I made a scope adjustment before the second go rounds happened.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Here's the test loads I just did for a new .22 my son bought.
These are at 50 yds.

There are 3 repeat grouping on the second from top row, of the most respectful first attempts.



Most of the brands are short hand written but note how the results vary even laterally! Yes I made a scope adjustment before the second go rounds happened.

A few grouped not too bad eh!

[Alberta Bigbore]

My 338 win mag shoots two different rounds of factory Nosler Trophy Grade 250 gr ammo differently. ACCUBOND and PARTITION.



Unfortunately I can't get 250gr Accubonds to shoot crappy... I was hoping the 250 grain Partitions would shoot the best. Will have to play with reloading.....

But anyways. Muzzle velocities are 50 fps apart... both 250 grain projectiles.

250 gr Accubonds shoot low and left of Partitions. And tighter...







250 grain Partitions shoot higher and right.





I have tried some other rounds. 225 gr HORNADY SST superformance is all over the map.. smallest group being 4 inches.


Same goes for.my 270 win. Some shot nice group size.. even in same weight...different factory combos...... they had very different POI. Some that any hunter would be happy with. But 130 gr Accubond Nosler Trophy Grade factories... ragged little holes. Lazer beam accurate. Lol

[aardvaark]

I've got the same rifle that you mention here. I bought 6 boxes of the same ammo you picture in 40 and 32 gr bullets. My rifle didn't much care for it. Both bullet weights shot at different POI which I expected and neither one grouped well. They were both around 1.25" at 100yds. But I thought, hey, I've got a bunch of brass that I can re-use for reloading. And the new Nosler brass was the same price per piece as the factory loaded Hornady ammo. I started weighing and sorting, and the weights of the Hornady brass were all over the map. The weight spread was 10 grains. (The Nosler brass I use is .4gr spread and when I use Remington, I sort to within .4gr spread and end up discarding 2 or 3 out of a bag of 100.) I don't know if that's the problem of why it shoots so poorly, but it certainly won't help. That was a few years ago, so they might have improved since then.

I agree with the thoughts of the others here, that the velocities posted on the box likely are not accurate. It stands to reason that a bullet (26gr) that is 25% lighter than another would most likely be a few if not several hundred fps faster than the 32gr. It's certainly true when comparing 32 and 40 gr bullets which for me over my chrony have a 500 fps spread.

Wind does make a huge difference on the 204. Run the ballistics and you'll see that it doesn't take much wind at all to see a lot of the spread you've got in your photo. Especially if there's gusts which isn't factored in the ballistics. I loaded 26gr Barnes a few years ago and they were about 2" on a windy day but on top of each other when there was no wind.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by aardvaark

Wind does make a huge difference on the 204. Run the ballistics and you'll see that it doesn't take much wind at all to see a lot of the spread you've got in your photo. Especially if there's gusts which isn't factored in the ballistics. I loaded 26gr Barnes a few years ago and they were about 2" on a windy day but on top of each other when there was no wind.

Were you shooting at 100 yrds or more? How much wind?