22LR POI questions?

[Mountain Guy]

So I did some testing with my new 22 to determine POI's at different ranges.
I use it for chicken hunting so I figured I'd try zero at 10 yds for starters.
So when zero'd at 10 I tried at 5 yds. I was 1' low at 5.
Then I shot at 30 and was about 5' high !!
I really didn't like that. Seemed strange to be so different up to 30 yds.
Then I moved zero to 30 yds.
This now made it 1' low at 5 , 2'' low at 10 , 1'' low at 15 ??
Still not happy with this.
Thinking I'll try zero at 50 next and see what that does to the close range POI's..
Does this sound right? What am I missing here...

[elkhunter11]

Doesn't sound right at all unless you are mixing up the ' and " symbols.

[obsessed1]

Something seems way off. Here is proven dope with my savage mkll 22lr &50yd zero. Have prooved this dope over and over. Could it be a parallax issue at such close range? I use a scope with adjustable parallax down to 10yds. It makes a difference!

[Mountain Guy]

I'm not using a ''22'' scope.. I put a 3-9x40 redfield on it..
Might change that out... Also can't focus that scope at a 30 yd target
I understand being 1'' low at 5 yds because of the height of the scope over the barrel.
zero at 10 and 5'' high at 30 really thru me off..

[obsessed1]

Keep things at 25 yds and out. If you cant bring the parallax out at shorter distances and your shooting at a fuzzy target your likely not aiming where you think you are. Im not running a "22" scope either right now i have a 2-10×44 with parallax adjustment. If your wanting to shoot accurately inside of 30 yds you will need that parallax adjustment IME.

[pikergolf]

The problem with sighting in a such short ranges is that you are actually pointing the barrel below the line of sight to do it. sighting in at a further distance puts the barrel in it proper placement which is angle up to the line of sight. I imagine pointing the barrel down introduces all sort of unwanted variables.

[Mountain Guy]

Thanks guys...
ya will zero at 50.

[graham1]

Are you adjusting the magnification on the scope when you change distances?
I had a Simmons 3-9 on a 22 years ago that would change the poi a lot if the magnification was changed.

If I left it at 4 power it was fine.

[MOUNTAIN MICKEY]

Check out some sites like RimFire Central etc--Metallic sihoulette shooting. Multiple zeros for multiple distances----but not shooting close up either. Now I have to go out and check the close up shots just to see what happens.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by graham1

Are you adjusting the magnification on the scope when you change distances?
I had a Simmons 3-9 on a 22 years ago that would change the poi a lot if the magnification was changed.

If I left it at 4 power it was fine.

I was at first then I stopped..thinking the same thing. I left on 3x

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Something seems way off. Here is proven dope with my savage mkll 22lr &50yd zero. Have prooved this dope over and over. Could it be a parallax issue at such close range? I use a scope with adjustable parallax down to 10yds. It makes a difference!

So zero at 20 is the same as 50.. so maybe I'll try at 20..

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

So zero at 20 is the same as 50.. so maybe I'll try at 20..

I would zero at 50 then verify at 20. You said yourself you cant get a clear sight picture at 30. Parallax on your scope will likely be set at 50+ so i would start there then verify @20.

[KGB]

I would change the scope. Just get a basic inexpensive rimfire scope.

[dave99]

I assume that you are dealing in inches and not feet…

Your 10yard zero POI at 5 and 30 yards make sense:

The 1” low at 5yd is basically the vertical difference between the center of barrel and sight line of scope.

Your 5” high POI at 30yd is due to the severe upward angle of the barrel that’s needed to be able to zero at 10yds, which is a very short horizontal distance at which to adjust the reticle (ie: zero). The trajectory of the bullet therefore rises steeply to the zero point of 10yd, and then CONTINUES to rise afterward above the sight line until it begins the inevitable downward arc. Hence the wonky POI at 30yd. This is a bad distance to zero for.

Your 30rd zero is much better for 22LR. That said, I can’t explain why you are 2” low at 10yd while you’re 1” low at 15yd. Magic bullet maybe

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

So I did some testing with my new 22 to determine POI's at different ranges.
I use it for chicken hunting so I figured I'd try zero at 10 yds for starters.
So when zero'd at 10 I tried at 5 yds. I was 1' low at 5.
Then I shot at 30 and was about 5' high !!
I really didn't like that. Seemed strange to be so different up to 30 yds.
Then I moved zero to 30 yds.
This now made it 1' low at 5 , 2'' low at 10 , 1'' low at 15 ??
Still not happy with this.
Thinking I'll try zero at 50 next and see what that does to the close range POI's..
Does this sound right? What am I missing here...

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

So I did some testing with my new 22 to determine POI's at different ranges.
I use it for chicken hunting so I figured I'd try zero at 10 yds for starters.
So when zero'd at 10 I tried at 5 yds. I was 1' low at 5.
Then I shot at 30 and was about 5' high !!
I really didn't like that. Seemed strange to be so different up to 30 yds.
Then I moved zero to 30 yds.
This now made it 1' low at 5 , 2'' low at 10 , 1'' low at 15 ??
Still not happy with this.
Thinking I'll try zero at 50 next and see what that does to the close range POI's..
Does this sound right? What am I missing here...

OK first mistake most people make with rimfire and other rifles is they forget that the bullet is not leaving the barrel parallel to the ground and a rimfire exaggerates this truth.
Scope height will also exaggerate this as well. So because the rifle barrel is pointed slightly skyward and the scope is pointed parallel to the horizon, the bullet arc actually passes through the line of sight twice once at close range (generally 25 yards or so) and then again at your aim point at say one hundred yards. So what your seeing is actually normal. I sight in all my .22's at 75 or 100 yards, but for your purposes 50 yards may be better. Just remember that the bullet is still leaving the rifle barrel 1.5-2" lower (depending on the scopes central mounted height compared to the bore of the barrel) than what the scope says it is at close ranges (25 yards or less) you need to actually aim high 1-2". At ranges beyond 50 yards you need to hold high as well to compensate for bullet drop.

A good reloading manual with a chapter on external ballistic will explain it better than I can. It is hard to wrap your brain around it but once you figure it out it makes sense.

[Big Sky]

Punched some numbers into shooters calculator. A 50yd zero is pretty much a perfect zero for hunting.

[Mountain Guy]

Thanks again.
I'll sight in at 50. And compare to the ballistic charts.

[elkhunter11]

And when you get out to 100yards, the velocity of the load can make a huge difference. Most target loads are under 1100fps, and the very high velocity loads like Stingers, are around 1600fps.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And when you get out to 100yards, the velocity of the load can make a huge difference. Most target loads are under 1100fps, and the very high velocity loads like Stingers, are around 1600fps.

Ya no doubt.
It was around 3'' low at 100 when I was zero at 30..
Funny thing is, I played around with different shells trying to find which my tikka would like best. Inconclusive for accuracy.. probably the best was some Norma's. Tried stingers , mini mags , eley sport , winchester , federal , blazers, American Eagle..
When I zero'd the Norma's at 30 , the stingers were actually low and off centre.. Norma's were 40gr and lower velocity..hmmm.
And they all had different POI's..
I wouldn't have thought barrel harmonic's would play into this at 30 yds.. ???
And here I thought all my accuracy issues would go away when I went from the 10/22 to the T1x.. haha.. the fun continues.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Ya no doubt.
It was around 3'' low at 100 when I was zero at 30..
Funny thing is, I played around with different shells trying to find which my tikka would like best. Inconclusive for accuracy.. probably the best was some Norma's. Tried stingers , mini mags , eley sport , winchester , federal , blazers, American Eagle..
When I zero'd the Norma's at 30 , the stingers were actually low and off centre.. Norma's were 40gr and lower velocity..hmmm.
And they all had different POI's..
I wouldn't have thought barrel harmonic's would play into this at 30 yds.. ???
And here I thought all my accuracy issues would go away when I went from the 10/22 to the T1x.. haha.. the fun continues.

If you want better accuracy, try some lower end/mid range target loads like SK Standard Plus, or SK Long Range. A friend's Tikka easily puts 5 rounds into 1/2" at 50m with both, and under 1" at 100m. On a calm day, my rifle has done 5 into 1/2" at 100m, but the average is more like 3/4"
ELEY and RWS also make comparable loads.

[Smokinyotes]

I have a T1X. It shoots very well with SK match. I bought a case when Neerlandia co-op had it.

[FXSB]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

The problem with sighting in a such short ranges is that you are actually pointing the barrel below the line of sight to do it. sighting in at a further distance puts the barrel in it proper placement which is angle up to the line of sight. I imagine pointing the barrel down introduces all sort of unwanted variables.

This is essentially the idea.
Here is another way of saying the same thing.

Your scope is mounted at a slight downward angle. Your bullet will cross your line of sight at two points. First as it intersects crossing from below to above line-of-sight and again as it drops back below line-of-sight.

It is often a surprise when you sight in at 25 yds. and it hits high at 50 yd.
It seems counter intuitive.

[6.5 shooter]

An exercise you can do to see what your rifle/ammo combo is doing at various ranges. Sight in your rifle (with chosen ammo) at 50 yards shoot a 5 shot group, move your target closer by ten yards shoot another group not moving any adjustments and aiming at the exact same point of aim you used at fifty yards. Then repeat this process at multiple ten yard intervals EG: 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, 60, 70, 80 yards etc. Burn up a box of ammo and shoot on a single target (don't forget to mark each group and distance) I think you will be surprised how much this exercise will teach you about ballistic and will prove VERY valuable out in the field!

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

An exercise you can do to see what your rifle/ammo combo is doing at various ranges. Sight in your rifle (with chosen ammo) at 50 yards shoot a 5 shot group, move your target closer by ten yards shoot another group not moving any adjustments and aiming at the exact same point of aim you used at fifty yards. Then repeat this process at multiple ten yard intervals EG: 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, 60, 70, 80 yards etc. Burn up a box of ammo and shoot on a single target (don't forget to mark each group and distance) I think you will be surprised how much this exercise will teach you about ballistic and will prove VERY valuable out in the field!

This is essentially what I did but not to that extent. And the first time backwards. I sighted at 10 ( most common distance I snipe chickens ) Then worked out to 30 from there. I didn't bother shooting further because I seldom shoot anything past that.. This exercise threw me off.
As mention , zero'ing at 10 was a bad move as I understand now the come up on the barrel was too extreme for that short distance.
Next, I zero'd at 30 and worked back in 5 yd increments. This too had me low up to 2 inches coming back.. no good.
Next exercise I will do as you mention above.
Just need to find some good ammo... would like to try the SK stuff. So far all I can find online is SK standard plus in 500 rd boxes. Would rather not get bulk until I try it out first.

[Mountain Guy]

Anyone ever experience barrel fouling that affected accuracy with a 22 ?
I'm pretty anal with cleaning my centerfires , but lax with 22's.
Probably ran about 100 rounds thru this gun... did one quick scrub of the bore so far as have been waiting for my bore guide to arrive.
Although my bad eyes are probably a bigger issue than a dirty barrel when shooting short distances..

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Anyone ever experience barrel fouling that affected accuracy with a 22 ?
I'm pretty anal with cleaning my centerfires , but lax with 22's.
Probably ran about 100 rounds thru this gun... did one quick scrub of the bore so far as have been waiting for my bore guide to arrive.
Although my bad eyes are probably a bigger issue than a dirty barrel when shooting short distances..

It would take thousands of rounds of quality ammunition to effect the accuracy of a 22lr.

[ScottFitter]

The biggest issue either 22 isn't a dirty barrel, but a dirty chamber causing a carbon ring. I clean the chamber with a carbon remover every 3-400 rounds. When I do this, at the end of my cleaning process, I run a dry patch or two down the barrel, only to clean up whatever carbon remover might have gravitated in. That's it.

On the original question, I plugged a couple of scenarios in to my app. With a 50 yard zero, and all of my variables, at 100 yards I'm 5.8-6 moa drop, depending on the weather that I have shot in. At 10 yards, I need to dial 50.5 moa. That would change a great deal based on ring height, velocity, etc. Just a good example of what guys are trying to say with a flat scope and tilted barrel, bullet crossing the line of sight twice, etc.

[elkhunter11]

Just looking at the recommendation that came with one of my Anschutz match rifles, they recommended a thorough cleaning after the initial 1000 rounds, then every 5000 rounds.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just looking at the recommendation that came with one of my Anschutz match rifles, they recommended a thorough cleaning after the initial 1000 rounds, then every 5000 rounds.

Interesting.. So I can't blame it on barrel break in..

[waldedw]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It would take thousands of rounds of quality ammunition to effect the accuracy of a 22lr.

I have a CZ 455 in 17HMR that has in excess of 10,000 rounds down the pipe and it will still take the head off a gopher out to 100 yards, not sure how many rounds it would take a 22 LR but it's lots