Minimum Wage Revelations

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by coreya3212

I would tip because a former minimum wage worker, that doesn’t earn a living wage, gave me good service and why not reward good work. But since the wage is now livable I see no real need to tip extra. And I don’t agree that the minimum wage should be a wage that you can live on, so I didn’t support the increase, nor the government that made it so, but I am inclined to think that many people who do earn minimum wage likely do support the increase, maybe not all, but I would guess that most do. So I imagine they voted for the government that promised to make it happen. So they should all be thrilled that I don’t tip, because they don’t need it. After all, this is the wage that they can live on.... right.

Have a great day.

I’m not sure all the other industries that receive tips would agree though. Hunting guides being a main one I’m thinking of. They make living wages but are tipped handsomely for their troubles and hard work. Or what about Xmas bonuses?
Tips are given for great service not to supplement basic income. People that receive them can’t show them as dependable income when they apply for credit or a mortgage unless they pay taxes on them. There’s a bit more too it than a livable wage.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Maybe someone should pull a redirect now... so we can be dollar scared about something else now.

How about the ''if gas goes to $1.25/l everyone will drive so much less"
Seems there's just as many cars on the road as there was a year ago.

[riden]

Originally Posted by expedition

I think we should all boycott kiosks! I do!

I remember when people said the same thing about ATMs.

[coreya3212]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

I’m not sure all the other industries that receive tips would agree though. Hunting guides being a main one I’m thinking of. They make living wages but are tipped handsomely for their troubles and hard work. Or what about Xmas bonuses?
Tips are given for great service not to supplement basic income. People that receive them can’t show them as dependable income when they apply for credit or a mortgage unless they pay taxes on them. There’s a bit more too it than a livable wage.

But this thread isn’t about tipping, it’s about minimum wage. I have quit tipping workers that I believe to be minimum wage earners, as my view on that has changed with the wage and arguments for a higher minimum. I have never used a hunting guide, but have hired fishing guides and very likely would continue to tip for exceptional work like I always have.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

How about the ''if gas goes to $1.25/l everyone will drive so much less"
Seems there's just as many cars on the road as there was a year ago.

Good point!



I’m sure there’s an equilibrium point where prices and habit do change out of economic necessity .....I’m thinking 1.75 for gas is the magic number....and 17.50 for min wage.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by coreya3212

But this thread isn’t about tipping, it’s about minimum wage. I have quit tipping workers that I believe to be minimum wage earners, as my view on that has changed with the wage and arguments for a higher minimum. I have never used a hunting guide, but have hired fishing guides and very likely would continue to tip for exceptional work like I always have.

I was only commenting regarding your comments about tipping not being based work ethic but around them making a livable wage. I’m fine with removing tipping all together, such as Aus and NZ but all earners make $20+/hr and the tip is basically in the cost but then I’d put that across the board and never tip anyone ever again cause the government has ensured they make enough. Service there was usually pretty great and lots of places to pick from. Personally I don’t think servers would go for that here though.
Exceptional work is exceptional work no matter what service industry to me. Dealing with humans on a regular basis like that personally would suck.

[huntsfurfish]

I know people that dont tip now that the minimum wage has gone up. But they didnt tip before either.

If you can afford to eat out you can afford to tip.





Its just wrong to have people make more money.

[gunluvr]

Though it drives us all crazy, the cost of living increases every year. For everyone. Why shouldn't wages, too? Whether it's for waitresses, cooks, brain surgeons, or pipefitters? We all have bills to pay. Those at the bottom of the pay scale deserve protection from unethical employers who will hire the next job applicant who will accept 10 cents less an hour. I believe that's what mininum wage was created for. And we're not all cut out to become succssesful entrepreneurs.
Tipping, however it got started, I believe evolved into an excuse by cheap employers to keep service industry wages low. I always tip a server with cash for good service, as well as to not look like a cheap p###k. People who walk away from a $50 meal without giving a tip make me want to punch them in the head.

[expedition]

X2

[raab]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Sky is still up there despite the foreboding prophecy’s of some of AO’s leading o’pundits regarding the impact of minimum wage adjustments.

While it's easy to say that everything is fine with this minimum wage hike. The truth is its hard to see the jobs that havent been created due to the raise in minimum wage. I would also argue when the minimum wage went up to around 8 dollars it started having an effect on the lower paid jobs. When did automated cashier machines come in? When did we see gas stations let the gas attendants go?

O and that's not to mention the price on tourist attractions now getting to the point a family can scarcely afford to go. When I was young I was quite the ski bum so got a job at a few ski hills. I made just under 6 bucks an hour and could survive quite easily. Also the price of ski passes for an adult was around 70 bucks at the time for Sunshine. The price of one pass now at Sunshine is 105 dollars. It's insane.

One last point, if we must have a minimum wage. Then the raises should be directly proportional to inflation. The minimum wage has far surpassed the cost of inflation over the last 15 years. Were looking at roughly a 300% increase in that time.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by raab

O and that's not to mention the price on tourist attractions now getting to the point a family can scarcely afford to go. When I was young I was quite the ski bum so got a job at a few ski hills. I made just under 6 bucks an hour and could survive quite easily. Also the price of ski passes for an adult was around 70 bucks at the time for Sunshine. The price of one pass now at Sunshine is 105 dollars. It's insane.

Even at $5.90/hour at FT one was only making $1000/month gross. The only way you had cash to go skiing often enough to be called a ski bum at that price was either you were living at home, bummed rides to the hill cause you weren’t paying insurance and fuel on a vehicle or were working so much OT or had a different job at $10/hour to supplement that or commited every dollar you made to it. Sounds like a great life if so, the only time I put that much time on akis was when I worked at a ski hill for $7/hr. The average person has no life at that point though and is looking for assistance from the government to make ends meet. Maybe you committed a lot of your income to skiing but single parents don’t have that possibility. Even when I was making that kinda cash I lived with 3 people in a house sharing rent and utilities it cost $400/month to cover my 3rd so I had $200 for food and bus passes to get to work and then had an extra $100 for random garbage. Sure didn’t go to retirement that’s for sure.

The cost of the ski passes inxcreased 33% and that’s related to the minimum wage increase somehow? No it’s inflation overall. Why has Jackson Hole increased the same amount if there minimum wage is $7.25? Corporations are gready it has nothing to do with minimum wage.

[raab]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

Even at $5.90/hour at FT one was only making $1000/month gross. The only way you had cash to go skiing often enough to be called a ski bum at that price was either you were living at home, bummed rides to the hill cause you weren’t paying insurance and fuel on a vehicle or were working so much OT or had a different job at $10/hour to supplement that or commited every dollar you made to it. Sounds like a great life if so, the only time I put that much time on akis was when I worked at a ski hill for $7/hr. The average person has no life at that point though and is looking for assistance from the government to make ends meet. Maybe you committed a lot of your income to skiing but single parents don’t have that possibility. Even when I was making that kinda cash I lived with 3 people in a house sharing rent and utilities it cost $400/month to cover my 3rd so I had $200 for food and bus passes to get to work and then had an extra $100 for random garbage. Sure didn’t go to retirement that’s for sure.

The cost of the ski passes inxcreased 33% and that’s related to the minimum wage increase somehow? No it’s inflation overall. Why has Jackson Hole increased the same amount if there minimum wage is $7.25? Corporations are gready it has nothing to do with minimum wage.

Minimum wage effects tourist type things like ski hills the most. A lot of the employees on ski hills make minimum wage and work there for the lifestyle. So when the minimum wage goes up it increases the prices on these things substantially. And the ticket price has gone up closer to 50% in that time frame. Has your wage increased 50%, let alone 300% in the last 15 years?

Also the ski hill provides lodging at a cheap rate, it also provides busing to and from work, as well as reciprocal passes to the other mountain resorts(free ski passes). It's very cheap to live in that sort of arrangement for 6 months as long as you have no debt.

[CanuckShooter]

We should cut the minimum wage back to $2 bucks per day...what the heck do those people need money for. That's a good wage in Rwanda so why not here?

[fishtank]

Case study South Korea... people are not getting ahead and store are closing earlier...https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.W1K22hbF2Ec

[raab]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

We should cut the minimum wage back to $2 bucks per day...what the heck do those people need money for. That's a good wage in Rwanda so why not here?

Cut the minimum wage to nothing and bring in a negative income tax. People are complaining of illegal immigration and the fact that they cost so much. Well its because these immigrants have no way or reason to get off the welfare system. This is due to the minimum wage erasing the unskilled jobs they traditionally would have taken. We could bring back the manufacturing jobs from China and put these people to work by the end of the month if we got rid of the minimum wage.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

We should cut the minimum wage back to $2 bucks per day.

I agree. Might encourage people to work a little harder and better themselves instead of just hard enough to keep their job. Not that a business is going to stay around for very long with employees that are earning that. Less government interference is generally a positive.

[tri777]

From the waitress's point of view:
(Watch 15:48-end)


http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episod...ip-out-tactics

[does it ALL outdoors]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

We should cut the minimum wage back to $2 bucks per day...what the heck do those people need money for. That's a good wage in Rwanda so why not here?

Some guys would still find an excuse to not tip

It's hot out today, NO TIP!

It's raining? NO TIP!

$15 an hour? Those waitresses will be driving Bentleys in no time, NO TIP!!!

[ctd]

Do you tip all min wage people?
I bet not, with a whole slew of reasons why.

Simply put society demands we tip waitresses. They are the only people we demand we tip.
When I worked construction my best tip i ever had was pizza and beer bought for us. The customer was extremely happy we stayed late to finish getting his house ready to move into.
I never expected anything but my wage. Never demanded anything extra. Expected to be paid my wages that was it.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by gunluvr

Though it drives us all crazy, the cost of living increases every year. For everyone. Why shouldn't wages, too? Whether it's for waitresses, cooks, brain surgeons, or pipefitters? We all have bills to pay. Those at the bottom of the pay scale deserve protection from unethical employers who will hire the next job applicant who will accept 10 cents less an hour. I believe that's what mininum wage was created for. And we're not all cut out to become succssesful entrepreneurs.
Tipping, however it got started, I believe evolved into an excuse by cheap employers to keep service industry wages low. I always tip a server with cash for good service, as well as to not look like a cheap p###k. People who walk away from a $50 meal without giving a tip make me want to punch them in the head.

Well said.

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by raab

One last point, if we must have a minimum wage. Then the raises should be directly proportional to inflation. The minimum wage has far surpassed the cost of inflation over the last 15 years. Were looking at roughly a 300% increase in that time.

No. In fact, all wages have remained pretty stagnant, adjusted for inflation.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3531614/a...nada-stagnant/

in addition, corporate profits have increased significantly, while wages have not kept up.

http://www.talenteconomy.io/2017/12/...ant-4-reasons/

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by raab

Minimum wage effects tourist type things like ski hills the most. A lot of the employees on ski hills make minimum wage and work there for the lifestyle. So when the minimum wage goes up it increases the prices on these things substantially. And the ticket price has gone up closer to 50% in that time frame. Has your wage increased 50%, let alone 300% in the last 15 years?

Also the ski hill provides lodging at a cheap rate, it also provides busing to and from work, as well as reciprocal passes to the other mountain resorts(free ski passes). It's very cheap to live in that sort of arrangement for 6 months as long as you have no debt.

As you already stated. You were subsidized for that to work so there was no way that you could’ve done it on minimum wage at the time unless someone gave assistance. The hill made the big bucks and used you as cheap labour and wrote the living and transport off. Your time was paid easily by only one person buying a ticket. I did the same job but made $7/hour but worked full time to pay rent off the hill, payments for insurance and fuel to get to the hill cause they didn’t have transport and then food and beers. I could ski on my 2 days off but had to get other stuff done on one of those days so skied 1 day a week if I was lucky.

Since then yes my wage has increased by 300% from 5.90/hour as I worked my way up but not without help from many people along the way. Some folks don’t have those people and depend on the government to help out.

Look at housing prices for goodness sake as an example. From 2004-2005 housing prices in Alberta jumped almost double in that little amount of time. The minimum wage didn’t immediately jump 100% at the time but people had to pay more if they wanted to get into their own home or even rent a house as those prices shot up too. People making 5.90 weren’t owning but they were paying more as the landlord had to capture their costs associated with the jumps in property taxes.

Walmart is a great example of free market enterprise that exploits their suppliers and workers while the owners are in the top 20 of the Forbes list every year. A company that could easily pay better wages but doesn’t cause they don’t have too. Who else are you going to work for in those towns right??

Mom and pop shops are mostly run by family or pay decent wages from my time working with them. They see the direct value of good people, but large organizations don’t. They see bottom dollars but those people employ tons of people. If a livable wage drives those companies away it wasn’t the only reason.

[raab]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

As you already stated. You were subsidized for that to work so there was no way that you could’ve done it on minimum wage at the time unless someone gave assistance. The hill made the big bucks and used you as cheap labour and wrote the living and transport off. Your time was paid easily by only one person buying a ticket. I did the same job but made $7/hour but worked full time to pay rent off the hill, payments for insurance and fuel to get to the hill cause they didn’t have transport and then food and beers. I could ski on my 2 days off but had to get other stuff done on one of those days so skied 1 day a week if I was lucky.

Since then yes my wage has increased by 300% from 5.90/hour as I worked my way up but not without help from many people along the way. Some folks don’t have those people and depend on the government to help out.

Look at housing prices for goodness sake as an example. From 2004-2005 housing prices in Alberta jumped almost double in that little amount of time. The minimum wage didn’t immediately jump 100% at the time but people had to pay more if they wanted to get into their own home or even rent a house as those prices shot up too. People making 5.90 weren’t owning but they were paying more as the landlord had to capture their costs associated with the jumps in property taxes.

Walmart is a great example of free market enterprise that exploits their suppliers and workers while the owners are in the top 20 of the Forbes list every year. A company that could easily pay better wages but doesn’t cause they don’t have too. Who else are you going to work for in those towns right??

Mom and pop shops are mostly run by family or pay decent wages from my time working with them. They see the direct value of good people, but large organizations don’t. They see bottom dollars but those people employ tons of people. If a livable wage drives those companies away it wasn’t the only reason.

If all it took for everyone to live decent lives was to raise the minimum wage. Why don't we raise it to 100 dollars an hour?

And while yes I had additional benefits working at a ski hill. This was the way they attracted good help. I would hazard to guess many minimum wage employees receive some sort of additional compensation. Usually it's a discount on the products sold by the company.

You bring up housing and then try to tie it to minimum wage. The fact is no one should be buying a house on minimum wage. When I was young me and 5 buddies rented a big house together and it cost us less then 500 a month in rent and utilities in 2007 at the height of the housing boom. People making minimum wage also need to get creative like that on housing.

And you said your wage increased over 300% in that time frame. And you admit that it wasn't government intervention that made it happen. I'm guessing it was your own drive that made you improve. Why would you assume that someone starting out in a minimum wage job would not have that same drive to improve? If your talking about opportunity, upping the minimum wage takes away opportunity from low skilled labor. Because the jobs that these people traditionally would have took are now being moved overseas. As far as being able to get an education goes I don't want to get into that debate, but feel everyone provided they have the skill and aptitude should be able to get training.

As for the Walmart thing. I'm not going to spend to much time on that. What I will say is that I don't support them, because of the reasons you cited. If everyone did the same they wouldn't make record profits. I usually shop at Costco which offers better quality goods at a good price. They also pay good wages to their employees.

In closing if we look back 100 years ago at what our great grandparents had to work with. They came over here with few valuables. There was no minimum wage, no guarantee of work, no guarantee not to get sick, their housing was a sod house. So why come here? The answer is that without government intervention at that time, there was limitless opportunity. They came here and worked their butts off. As a result most likely your grandparents benefitted, your parents benefitted, and now your benefitting from the hard work your ancestors put in coming here. Why should we deny those opportunities our ancestors had to new unskilled labor? Why not afford them the same opportunities that our ancestors had when they came to this country?

[Trochu]

I think a lot of people feel a person should be able to get by on minimum wage. When I was growing up, minimum wage was intended for teenagers working after school jobs. When did we go from that to I should be able to support my family and buy a house on minimum wage?

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by Trochu

I think a lot of people feel a person should be able to get by on minimum wage. When I was growing up, minimum wage was intended for teenagers working after school jobs. When did we go from that to I should be able to support my family and buy a house on minimum wage?

Because that was its intent. There was a time with a guy working at a gas station fed his family. People only want it to be fair. And like previously stated there at lots of types of people trying to make a go at life so why not bump it up. No ones says anything when a CEO still gets a large bonus even though that company was given piles of tax breaks in order to be competitive. Helping people starting out or just surviving should be on everyone's to do list. If you can of course.course

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by raab

In closing if we look back 100 years ago at what our great grandparents had to work with. They came over here with few valuables. There was no minimum wage, no guarantee of work, no guarantee not to get sick, their housing was a sod house. So why come here? The answer is that without government intervention at that time, there was limitless opportunity. They came here and worked their butts off. As a result most likely your grandparents benefitted, your parents benefitted, and now your benefitting from the hard work your ancestors put in coming here. Why should we deny those opportunities our ancestors had to new unskilled labor? Why not afford them the same opportunities that our ancestors had when they came to this country?

Again, incorrect. Most of the immigrants you have in mind (like my own ancestors) came here to escape political horror stories. Others came because there was nothing for them, literally (the land had been divided up so they had no where they could ever call their own or support themselves on). Or they were criminals escaping consequences of their actions. Having half a chance of surviving on the prairie (or dying from starvation/infection/cold/etc) was better than what they were escaping.

As a guy working security, who was from Somalia, said to me one winter when I commented on how cold -35C was "It's better than watching your family being raped and killed in front of you."

There's no need to look at the past through some rose coloured glasses, as some golden age.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Badgerbadger

Again, incorrect. Most of the immigrants you have in mind (like my own ancestors) came here to escape political horror stories. Others came because there was nothing for them, literally (the land had been divided up so they had no where they could ever call their own or support themselves on). Or they were criminals escaping consequences of their actions. Having half a chance of surviving on the prairie (or dying from starvation/infection/cold/etc) was better than what they were escaping.

As a guy working security, who was from Somalia, said to me one winter when I commented on how cold -35C was "It's better than watching your family being raped and killed in front of you."

There's no need to look at the past through some rose coloured glasses, as some golden age.

So government intervention led to people fleeing their home country to come to a country without government intervention.

I think your stating my case for me. And obviously someone would come here from a war zone, like Somalia. For the most part people want to live their lives in peace. The problem with minimum wage is it gives more power to the government, and destroys opportunities for unskilled workers. And that's before we even start looking at the far reaching effects like increases in rent, food, gasoline, etc... I still maintain a far better solution would be no minimum wage and a negative income tax.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by raab

If all it took for everyone to live decent lives was to raise the minimum wage. Why don't we raise it to 100 dollars an hour?

And while yes I had additional benefits working at a ski hill. This was the way they attracted good help. I would hazard to guess many minimum wage employees receive some sort of additional compensation. Usually it's a discount on the products sold by the company.

You bring up housing and then try to tie it to minimum wage. The fact is no one should be buying a house on minimum wage. When I was young me and 5 buddies rented a big house together and it cost us less then 500 a month in rent and utilities in 2007 at the height of the housing boom. People making minimum wage also need to get creative like that on housing.

And you said your wage increased over 300% in that time frame. And you admit that it wasn't government intervention that made it happen. I'm guessing it was your own drive that made you improve. Why would you assume that someone starting out in a minimum wage job would not have that same drive to improve? If your talking about opportunity, upping the minimum wage takes away opportunity from low skilled labor. Because the jobs that these people traditionally would have took are now being moved overseas. As far as being able to get an education goes I don't want to get into that debate, but feel everyone provided they have the skill and aptitude should be able to get training.

As for the Walmart thing. I'm not going to spend to much time on that. What I will say is that I don't support them, because of the reasons you cited. If everyone did the same they wouldn't make record profits. I usually shop at Costco which offers better quality goods at a good price. They also pay good wages to their employees.

In closing if we look back 100 years ago at what our great grandparents had to work with. They came over here with few valuables. There was no minimum wage, no guarantee of work, no guarantee not to get sick, their housing was a sod house. So why come here? The answer is that without government intervention at that time, there was limitless opportunity. They came here and worked their butts off. As a result most likely your grandparents benefitted, your parents benefitted, and now your benefitting from the hard work your ancestors put in coming here. Why should we deny those opportunities our ancestors had to new unskilled labor? Why not afford them the same opportunities that our ancestors had when they came to this country?

Most minimum wage folks do not get free transportation to work or subsidized housing as a perk they have to pay for those necessities. A real perk would be to pay you your full worth and let you decide how you spent it without interference.

No one said anything about buying a house but the rental costs are passed onto the renter so they feel the wrath too. Sure you could live it up in a slum with no windows or what have you but do we want to be that kind of society? Lower income families should feel safe in their own homes and be able to eat too. Modest living of course.

Government leant me money to go to school so yes I guess they did assist me but I had to pay it back. I only had to deal with my own issues and my parents gave me free room and board over the summers. Some folks don’t have that even. You bet I worked hard to get where I am but in no way do I think I did it on my own. I had moral, financial and just plain giving from many people that helped me as I went.

I think we fail to forget that just cause minimum wage increases that doesn’t mean everyone who’s a slacker just gets that money. A person still has to show up, work hard and do a decent job. If the boss decides to keep a bum that’s on them and no one else.

The no government interference conversation always is great. I talk to many people from places that had little interference from government and none of them are trying to get back there. They enjoy the safety and security they have here and other developed nations with stable governments but also the opportunities that they have for work that isn’t slave labour essentially.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

The real reason for the increase.

Exactly, if the government wanted to help minimum wage earners they would be taxing them less. Raising minimum wage is simply a way of collecting more taxes in the name of humanitarian ideals... it always has and always will be about creating revenue. Ever noticed that as government spending increases so does the frequency of the minimum wage hikes?

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by raab

So government intervention led to people fleeing their home country to come to a country without government intervention.

I gotta give you credit for the misrepresentation of the day! Wow, that was some stunning mental gymnastics! Oppressive feudalism, and self serving monarchies aren't really that intrusive forms of government, just so long as you pay your taxes, don't diss the rulers, and show up to be cannon fodder when the king desires. Everyone has the freedom to die in the streets!

Originally Posted by raab

I think your stating my case for me. And obviously someone would come here from a war zone, like Somalia. For the most part people want to live their lives in peace. The problem with minimum wage is it gives more power to the government, and destroys opportunities for unskilled workers. And that's before we even start looking at the far reaching effects like increases in rent, food, gasoline, etc... I still maintain a far better solution would be no minimum wage and a negative income tax.

That's exactly backwards. Increased minimum wage gives more power to the wage earner, as they have more options available as they have more money. They don't have to choose between food or heat. They can have BOTH!

I'm surprised you'd advocate for a guaranteed basic income or negative income tax, as you phrase it (and progressive income taxation in general), as that's a government handout for doing nothing. I, too, think a minimum basic income is a good idea, as it allows people to develop areas that may not be very financially rewarding at the outset.