Metis hunting rights?

[Arn?Narn.]

are these trophies eligible in B$C and such?

if so, would making them not eligible or qualifiable for records help or no?

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No real need to shake my head, that's been pretty obvious since the Metis announced they were going to conduct an "illegal" hunt to draw this into court.

Sheephunter,

It has not been determined if the Metis Communal hunts have been illegal yet!

Thanks,
Rafter

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

It has not been determined if the Metis Communal hunts have been illegal yet!

Thanks,
Rafter

Hence the quotations.......

The hunt was publicized in advance and conducted in order to illecit charges and bring the matter to court. Correct?

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

are these trophies eligible in B$C and such?

if so, would making them not eligible or qualifiable for records help or no?

Yup...

SUBSISTENCE LICENSES
In general, trophies taken with a subsistence license/permit are acceptable for entry in the Awards Programs and listing in the Club’s records books so long as they meet all the Club’s entry requirements, including all aspects of fair chase.

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

Empathy and law is the thrust of my posts.

Subsistence a Good question and I am glad to clarify this for you.

I am a little different that most people you come accross. I actually live off the land for up to 10 months a year at times. My nearest neighbor is precisely 100 miles away and that is the same for the nearest road. Of course one has to subsistence hunt and gather with a lifestyle like that. Constitutional rights do not even enter into survival. There are many people non Aboriginal and Aboriginal that subsist in that lifestyle. So I guess the short answer is subsistence is important to me personally. I would hazard a guess that subsistence would be paramount to any one in that lifestyle.

Thanks,
Rafter

And the antelope?

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Worked out real well with the IMHA. Even if we lose, at least we were in the fight.......

Sheephunter,

Respectfully, if you think you stopped Metis hunting because the IMHA was torn up by the present Alberta Government you are mistaken.

The Metis were excercising their rghts a long time before the IMHA and will be a long time after the IMHA. There will be no IMHA in the future. In it's place there will be accomodation for the Metis in the Wildlife Act as per the Constitution. Same as their Indian cousins.

Glad to note your fighting spirit, can't help but respect you for that.

Thanks,
Ron

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

Respectfully, if you think you stopped Metis hunting because the IMHA was torn up by the present Alberta Government you are mistaken.

The Metis were excercising their rghts a long time before the IMHA and will be a long time after the IMHA. There will be no IMHA in the future. In it's place there will be accomodation for the Metis in the Wildlife Act as per the Constitution. Same as their Indian cousins.

Glad to note your fighting spirit, can't help but respect you for that.

Thanks,
Ron

I was not responsible individually but a strong united voice from sportsmen and many other concerned Albertans definitely was. We'd be saddled with a permanent version of that flawed agreement had there not been a public outcry.

Of course Metis have and will continue to excercise their rights as they should. It's just that the IMHA far exceed those rights as granted in Powley. I'll save the speech on the backroom shinanigans that resulted in the IMHA and say a prayer of thanks every night that the corrupt politicians and cronies involved are no longer serving the people of Alberta.

By all means Metis should excercise their rights...I'm a huge supporter of that. I just can't support an expansion of those rights or those rights being used in a spirit they were never intended. That's the fight I'll stay in......

BTW, the IMHA was never torn up....it expired.

[Huntsman]

Indians are from India

[walking buffalo]

Rafter,

In appreciation of your decorum,

How come you ignore facts that refute your opinion?

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The Metis DID NOT travel to what is now Alberta for the purpose of subsistence hunting, being defined as harvesting for FOOD. These journeys were made for the purpose of reaping financial reward through participation in the un-sustainable slaughter of bison for the robe trade!

Strict interpretation of Metis hunting in Alberta based on history suggests that they should have the right to harvest wildlife to extripation for financial reward.

My ancestors also settled in pre-confederation Alberta, and harvested wildlife for food while farming and doing business. Shouldn't all other cultures that lived and continue to live and practice their culture today have the same rights as the Metis are asking for?







From http://www.albertasource.ca/metis/en...ra_buffalo.htm



From http://auspace.athabascau.ca:8080/dspace/handle/2149/81
open file f09.pdf near the bottom.

Walking Buffalo,

Good post. You are right every one had a hand in causing the near extirpaton of the Buffalo.

In answer to your question "shouldn't all other cultures that lived and continue to live and practice their culture today have the same rights as the Metis are asking for" My answer is why not, however you may have to be like the Metis and challenge the present Government in a court of law. I don't think anyone is going to get something just for the asking though. I don't think the Metis are asking as they are asserting their rights as laid out in the Constitution.

Thanks,
Ron

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I was not responsible individually but a strong united voice from sportsmen and many other concerned Albertans definitely was. We'd be saddled with a permanent version of that flawed agreement had there not been a public outcry.

Of course Metis have and will continue to excercise their rights as they should. It's just that the IMHA far exceed those rights as granted in Powley. I'll save the speech on the backroom shinanigans that resulted in the IMHA and say a prayer of thanks every night that the corrupt politicians and cronies involved are no longer serving the people of Alberta.

By all means Metis should excercise their rights...I'm a huge supporter of that. I just can't support an expansion of those rights or those rights being used in a spirit they were never intended. That's the fight I'll stay in......

BTW, the IMHA was never torn up....it expired.

Sheephunter,

It had not expired but notice was served and then it was torn up. It is moot in any event

Please accept my apologies as I find myself being drug down to your level. I am ashamed of myself for that.

Thanks,
Rafter

[ARGO GUY]

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

It had not expired but notice was served and then it was torn up. It is moot in any event

Please accept my apologies as I find myself being drug down to your level. I am ashamed of myself for that.

Thanks,
Rafter

You are something else!!!!!

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Hence the quotations.......

The hunt was publicized in advance and conducted in order to illecit charges and bring the matter to court. Correct?

Yes the Government was goaded into court. Still remains if the hunts were illegal or not

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

It had not expired but notice was served and then it was torn up. It is moot in any event

Please accept my apologies as I find myself being drug down to your level. I am ashamed of myself for that.

Thanks,
Rafter

To my level? I felt we were both being quite respectful...albeit on opposite side of an issue. Please accept my sincerest apology if I said something to offend you as it was not my intent.

You have constantly dodged my questions and I guess I have asked some hard questions but for that I offer no apology but as I said, there was never any intent to offend....just openly debate a somewhat contencious issue.

I'll resist the temptation of offering a backhanded slap in return with the hopes a civil dialogue can continue......

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by flint

I wouldn't call slaughtering 8 mule deer doe's and shooting fish in a barrel an adventure, but whatever makes you happy.

Sheephunter,

I sure hope these allegations about you are not true. I don't belive they are true.

Defend yourself please as I have a higher opinion of you than that. Don't allow false accusations to float around

Thanks,
Rafter

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

To my level? I felt we were both being quite respectful...albeit on opposite side of an issue. Please accept my sincerest apology if I said something to offend you as it was not my intent.

You have constantly dodged my questions and I guess I have asked some hard questions but for that I offer no apology but as I said, there was never any intent to offend....just openly debate a somewhat contencious issue.

I'll resist the temptation of offering a backhanded slap in return with the hopes a civil dialogue can continue......

Sheephunter,

Yes maybe I put more into than I should have.

Please accept my apology too.
Thanks,
Rafter

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

I sure hope these allegations about you are not true. I don't belive they are true.

Defend yourself please as I have a higher opinion of you than that. Don't allow false accusations to float around

Thanks,
Rafter

Already addressed in post 325.......



I try to stay out of the personal attacks but a few trolls feel they add to this board. I much prefer a good debate based on informed thoughts and opinions. Stooping to lies and inuendo really serves little purpose.

He once accused me of being the devil too...I really didn't see the need to address that false accusation. I think most people on here are pretty savvy and read through that stuff quickly.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by Sporty

Just an FYI about the current court cases of which people are arguing here. In simple layman terms, the Metis that live in central and southern Alberta are excluded in the current agreement because they cannot hunt in those areas and they cannot travel to the northern communities to hunt. This is what they are fighting for. It isn't so that Metis can travel from High Level to Lethbridge or where ever to hunt trophy animals. Again, trophy hunting is excluded in the agreement, this is not what they are fighting for in court.

http://www.albertametis.com/getdoc/3...tingFINAL.aspx

Who is going to regulate the exclusion of trophy hunting? Fish and Wildlife is already over worked and under funded. The Metis Nation of Alberta won't have the authority to regulate it. Cougars were registered during the IMHA and if shooting a cougar behind hounds can't be prosecuted as trophy hunting, what can?

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

It had not expired but notice was served and then it was torn up. It is moot in any event

Thanks,
Rafter

Wasn't notice that it was about to expire served?

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Wasn't notice that it was about to expire served?

Sheephunter,

The agreement was made. The intent was to make it interim to see if it would be suitable as is or if it had to be amended prior to implementation of a more permanent Harvesting agreement.

There was a clause in it that allowed either side to give 90 days notice if the applicable party wanted to opt out of it.

The original intent was to allow further negotiations to allow both parties to build on the interim agreement.

However as soon as there was a change in power of the existing Government there was no intent to build onto the interim agreement or to enter into meaningful discussions. Notice was served by the Government and the IMHA was history.

Thanks,
Rafter

Originally Posted by Rafter

Sheephunter,

The agreement was made. The intent was to make it interim to see if it would be suitable as is or if it had to be amended prior to implementation of a more permanent Harvesting agreement.

There was a clause in it that allowed either side to give 90 days notice if the applicable party wanted to opt out of it.

The original intent was to allow further negotiations to allow both parties to build on the interim agreement.

However as soon as there was a change in power of the existing Government there was no intent to build onto the interim agreement or to enter into meaningful discussions. Notice was served by the Government and the IMHA was history.

Thanks,
Rafter

Thanks. That was my understanding as well.

[leo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

and say a prayer of thanks every night that the corrupt politicians and cronies involved are no longer serving the people of Alberta..

The driving force behind IMHA was through "King Ralph" and Pearl Calahasen if I am not mistaken. Pearl is still an MLA , with no portfolio thank god. If there are more involved can you inform the forum of whom they are?

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by NCC

Who is going to regulate the exclusion of trophy hunting? Fish and Wildlife is already over worked and under funded. The Metis Nation of Alberta won't have the authority to regulate it. Cougars were registered during the IMHA and if shooting a cougar behind hounds can't be prosecuted as trophy hunting, what can?

NCC,

The Metis government of Alberta have the authority to regulate and enforce the Metis in Alberta. The authority was given unanimously by all the members of the Metis in Alberta to the Metis Government at their 79th Assembly in St. Paul, Alberta..

Their Harvesting Policy is on their website if you are interested in reading it.

Complaints to the Metis Captains of the Hunt by anyone will be investigated.

The Metis have offered to work hand in hand with the Alberta F&W. The Alberta F&W weren't interested. The officers at the field level for the most part were but their Top Boss wasn't.

Thanks,
Rafter

[pottymouth]

The more I read, the more bitter I get. No other people in the history of this planet have recieved what the natives of north America have been given. But they continue to bite the hand that feeds them, and cry for more. If the European way of life has taken away from them more than it has given them, why continue to live that way?

Being that this is Canada, and we all live here, why are the scales of oppoturnity, and equality so unbalanced?? Rafter your right this isn't about just hunting, now I'm starting to believe that my family has been cheated out of other things , privliged to a conquered people.

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Already addressed in post 325.......



I try to stay out of the personal attacks but a few trolls feel they add to this board. I much prefer a good debate based on informed thoughts and opinions. Stooping to lies and inuendo really serves little purpose.

He once accused me of being the devil too...I really didn't see the need to address that false accusation. I think most people on here are pretty savvy and read through that stuff quickly.

Sheephunter,

I agree that most people on the forum are savvy and read through unsubstantiated rumors and false accusations quickly.

I think we are nearing 400 posts on this thread and it has been cordial, informative and good points given by most. Of course there are differing opinions but that is very understandable. It is good to discuss the differences. Hopefully this will go a long way in bringing us all together and working on a solution that is palatable by all. My father always told me that sometimes each side of a relationship has to give more than 50% to make it work!

Thanks for the reply.

Rafter

[leo]

In one of my previous posts way back , I asked if the MNA has any plans on helping SRD fund wildlife sustainability, or volunteer time or resources for the same? If not then people I have a real problem with the whole deal! Every stakeholder (Treaty, Metis, white, yellow, what ever) has the moral obligation to maintain these resources for future generations, they don't belong to any one of us! If you are not part of the solution to wildlife sustainability, then you are part of the problem IMO. No one deserves a free ride on this one! Is there any accomodation to help sustain our resources?

Originally Posted by Rafter

NCC,

The Metis government of Alberta have the authority to regulate and enforce the Metis in Alberta. The authority was given unanimously by all the members of the Metis in Alberta to the Metis Government at their 79th Assembly in St. Paul, Alberta..

Their Harvesting Policy is on their website if you are interested in reading it.

Complaints to the Metis Captains of the Hunt by anyone will be investigated.

The Metis have offered to work hand in hand with the Alberta F&W. The Alberta F&W weren't interested. The officers at the field level for the most part were but their Top Boss wasn't.

Thanks,
Rafter

Respectfully, it somehow seems like the fox guarding the hen house to me. Perhaps if you could offer up some concrete examples of how the Metis self policing has worked in regards to hunting, it might put some of us a bit more at ease. I'm open to being convinced....

[Walleyes]

Just no way can I take myself out of this one as hard as I try I am dragged back in..

One of the things that just brings me back in is the fact that the hunting rights are just a small part of the argument and a wolf in sheep's clothing. A few post's back I addressed some concerns that went far beyond the hunting disguise yet few picked up on it. These are issues that have to be dealt with.

What the super pro Metis don't realise is that all they are succeeding in doing is driving yet another wedge between our societies and in the end when there is resentment felt they will once again cry foul and discrimination brought on by their own people,, once gain !!!

Lets not forget one thing,, their hero or mantra if you will was hung for treason in this country as a traitor.. A common criminal that was tried and convicted... Good enough for me...

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Sporty, I'd be curious to know how trophy hunting is excluded in this agreement. We already had one Metis on here saying that ram and buck taste better than their female counterparts and asking "what a trophy really was". Tell me how trophy hunting can be excluded if the meat is consumed.

“Métis harvest” or “Métis harvesting” means the taking, catching,
fishing (with rod and reel or net) or gathering of renewable resources
for reasonable personal or community use by MNA members. Such
harvesting includes plants, berries, fish, wildlife, wood and water,
taken for subsistence, food, medicinal, social or ceremonial purposes
and includes donations, gifts and exchange with other members of the
Métis community. For greater certainty, for the purposes of the MNA
Harvesting Policy, the Métis harvest is for reasonable personal or
community use only and does not include harvesting for commercial
purposes or trophy harvesting.

The MNA will not support or defend any Métis harvesting that is deemed to be outside the scope or spirit and intent of the MNA Harvesting Policy.

Are you sure it was a Metis that posted or someone stirring up the pot claiming to be Metis? I don't have an issue with valid arguments about this agreement however I do have issues with people making it seem that all Metis or a good number of Metis are dishonest people lacking in integrity and they are going to run out and shoot a ram with the biggest horns they can find. If someone is doing what you determine to be trophy harvesting, call and report them to both Fish and Wildlife and to the MNA, take pictures. I would do the same if I seen this happening, I don't care if they are Metis, these people tarnish the Metis name and then we have assumptions being made here that the Metis have no respect for conservation, want to abuse these rights and are over all dishonest people.

For some reason the links I try to post don't work. People can go to the MNA website and read the harvesting agreement that the MNA has adopted. It really isn't as bad as people are making it out to be.

http://www.albertametis.com/MNAHome/Home.aspx

[260 Rem]

I believe it is only a matter of time until the electorate tires of any form of special treatment for any group based on rights claimed because of ethnic roots ....Right or wrong... that will be the end result of persistent attemps to use the courts to force "special treatment". I also believe there is a "silent majority" that has been sitting on the sidelines who will someday be provoked to call for politicians to enact laws that put an end to seemingly endless fights.