Winchester 1885 Trapper 45-70

[David Henry]

I have an 1885 Trapper in 45-70 coming from Clay at Prophet River and am looking forward to working with it, it has a 16 1/2" barrel which will prove interesting when run through the chronograph. I have 405,300 and 200 grain bullets and some starline brass to get me started. Just wondering if any other A.O. members have one of these and if you have done any load development with them as I have not found all that much when searching Google. David.

[hogie]

I have the 125 anniversary edition with a 26 inch barrel. I had no luck with cast bullets, could be the bullet. I found Remington 405 jacket bullets shot well with IMR 4198. I am shooting black powder velocity. Varget was ok as well.

[colroggal]

The 1885 action is supposed to be tier 3 when it comes to pressure. But if your shooting cast bullets, unless they're gas-checked you won't be able to take advantage of it.

I've been loading 45-70 as long is I've been loading period. First cartridge I started loading, using a Lee classic kit. My experience, take it for what it's worth, is barrel length of a 45-70 runs like a Swiss watch. Literally the quoted 25 fps per inch. And either 4198 powder is just about the best you can use. I currently have rifles chambered in 45-70 with barrel lengths from 16 1/2 (marlin 1895 trapper) to 26 ( Another 1895, a cowboy model)

If I'm not mistaken, the high walls use a slightly slower twist rate typical of the longer barrels falling blocks tend to have, which in your shorter barrel may favour the lighter pills, faster powders and higher velocities.

If that's the case, the best bullet I could think of would be the hornady 350g rn with about 52g of h4198 behind it. That'll give you about 1950 - 2000 fps. If your fillings are up to it, it'll drop king kong.

Imr4198 is 'slightly' faster burning than H. For the 300g pills in a shorter barrel could get better velocity and the action will take it. About 2150fps with the same 52g of powder. H4198 will be about 75fps slower with the same pressure and recoil. That recoil, btw, can be fairly stout.

I've never shot anything lighter than 300's so I can't comment on them.

Personally, I'd check out Jet bullets and pick up some 500g gc hard cast. Start at 27 or so grains of either 4198 (About 1250fps) and go from there. Pressure signs are hard to read on a 45-70 case - especially in a falling block action. Watch your primers and check the head stamps. On starline brass look at the smiley face and feel it with your thumbnail before and after firing. If there's compression that line will get thinner. Also watch for a shiny ring about a 1/4 inch up from the rim. If you see it, by then your primers will be flattened and your thumb nail won't fit in the smile. Time to stop and back off half a grain.

Have fun and good luck.

Colin

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by hogie

I have the 125 anniversary edition with a 26 inch barrel. I had no luck with cast bullets, could be the bullet. I found Remington 405 jacket bullets shot well with IMR 4198. I am shooting black powder velocity. Varget was ok as well.

Varget is a great powder for lower velocity heavy bullets in the 45-70.

Colin

[Groundhogger]

Originally Posted by colroggal

The 1885 action is supposed to be tier 3 when it comes to pressure. But if your shooting cast bullets, unless they're gas-checked you won't be able to take advantage of it.

I've been loading 45-70 as long is I've been loading period. First cartridge I started loading, using a Lee classic kit. My experience, take it for what it's worth, is barrel length of a 45-70 runs like a Swiss watch. Literally the quoted 25 fps per inch. And either 4198 powder is just about the best you can use. I currently have rifles chambered in 45-70 with barrel lengths from 16 1/2 (marlin 1895 trapper) to 26 ( Another 1895, a cowboy model)

If I'm not mistaken, the high walls use a slightly slower twist rate typical of the longer barrels falling blocks tend to have, which in your shorter barrel may favour the lighter pills, faster powders and higher velocities.

If that's the case, the best bullet I could think of would be the hornady 350g rn with about 52g of h4198 behind it. That'll give you about 1950 - 2000 fps. If your fillings are up to it, it'll drop king kong.

Imr4198 is 'slightly' faster burning than H. For the 300g pills in a shorter barrel could get better velocity and the action will take it. About 2150fps with the same 52g of powder. H4198 will be about 75fps slower with the same pressure and recoil. That recoil, btw, can be fairly stout.

I've never shot anything lighter than 300's so I can't comment on them.

Personally, I'd check out Jet bullets and pick up some 500g gc hard cast. Start at 27 or so grains of either 4198 (About 1250fps) and go from there. Pressure signs are hard to read on a 45-70 case - especially in a falling block action. Watch your primers and check the head stamps. On starline brass look at the smiley face and feel it with your thumbnail before and after firing. If there's compression that line will get thinner. Also watch for a shiny ring about a 1/4 inch up from the rim. If you see it, by then your primers will be flattened and your thumb nail won't fit in the smile. Time to stop and back off half a grain.

Have fun and good luck.

Colin

Hey Colin~don't mean to hijack the thread, but I recently got an 1895G (JM) and plan on trying to load for it soon. I picked-up some 405 grain bullets and brass from BSS, and Trail Boss powder as I'd heard "it's the one" for 45/70. I have lots of other powders on hand from working up loads in 17H, 204R, 223, 243, etc. Any advice/tips on best powders for bullets in that weight class?

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by Groundhogger

Hey Colin~don't mean to hijack the thread, but I recently got an 1895G (JM) and plan on trying to load for it soon. I picked-up some 405 grain bullets and brass from BSS, and Trail Boss powder as I'd heard "it's the one" for 45/70. I have lots of other powders on hand from working up loads in 17H, 204R, 223, 243, etc. Any advice/tips on best powders for bullets in that weight class?

I haven't worked much with Trailboss, but there's tons of data available. H322 or 4895 aren't bad. You'll get some unburnt kernels of powder in the barrel, but then the same thing happens with the 4198's and lighter loads.

If your going light, I like to use cigarette paper as a filler. It keeps the powder against the primer and won't smoulder in the grass like some other filler material.

Colin

[Pioneer2]

I have a pre-side lawyer proof safety I load for with the 300gr Hornday HP /54gr of IMR3031 cuts .536" 3 shots at 100 yards.With Hornady 350 FN 44gr of IMR 4198 cuts .504" micro-groove so i haven't tried cast yet.Jet bullets makes good stuff as I use his 220grFNGC /.430 in my Win 92 /44-40 and his .379 270gr FNGC in my re-bored to 38-55 Marlin 336 1"-1.25" at 100 yards

[David Henry]

Thank you everyone for your information and load suggestions. David.

[SakoAlberta]

Originally Posted by David Henry

Thank you everyone for your information and load suggestions. David.

Good luck!!! Sweet little rifle. We have a few left in 38/55 which is also interesting!

[David Henry]

I admit I was torn between the 38-55 and the 45-70 and if my shoulder had a say in things I would have waited for one in 22 Short. David.

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by David Henry

I admit I was torn between the 38-55 and the 45-70 and if my shoulder had a say in things I would have waited for one in 22 Short. David.

Yes, the 45/70 in that tiny little rifle may be interesting! Trying to talk myself into a 38/55, have one in a 94 deluxe and, of course, has no noticeable recoil.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by colroggal

The 1885 action is supposed to be tier 3 when it comes to pressure. But if your shooting cast bullets, unless they're gas-checked you won't be able to take advantage of it.

I've been loading 45-70 as long is I've been loading period. First cartridge I started loading, using a Lee classic kit. My experience, take it for what it's worth, is barrel length of a 45-70 runs like a Swiss watch. Literally the quoted 25 fps per inch. And either 4198 powder is just about the best you can use. I currently have rifles chambered in 45-70 with barrel lengths from 16 1/2 (marlin 1895 trapper) to 26 ( Another 1895, a cowboy model)

If I'm not mistaken, the high walls use a slightly slower twist rate typical of the longer barrels falling blocks tend to have, which in your shorter barrel may favour the lighter pills, faster powders and higher velocities.

If that's the case, the best bullet I could think of would be the hornady 350g rn with about 52g of h4198 behind it. That'll give you about 1950 - 2000 fps. If your fillings are up to it, it'll drop king kong.

Imr4198 is 'slightly' faster burning than H. For the 300g pills in a shorter barrel could get better velocity and the action will take it. About 2150fps with the same 52g of powder. H4198 will be about 75fps slower with the same pressure and recoil. That recoil, btw, can be fairly stout.

I've never shot anything lighter than 300's so I can't comment on them.

Personally, I'd check out Jet bullets and pick up some 500g gc hard cast. Start at 27 or so grains of either 4198 (About 1250fps) and go from there. Pressure signs are hard to read on a 45-70 case - especially in a falling block action. Watch your primers and check the head stamps. On starline brass look at the smiley face and feel it with your thumbnail before and after firing. If there's compression that line will get thinner. Also watch for a shiny ring about a 1/4 inch up from the rim. If you see it, by then your primers will be flattened and your thumb nail won't fit in the smile. Time to stop and back off half a grain.

Have fun and good luck.

Colin

Great post colin

[David Henry]

Thought I would check back in and let anyone know that is interested in this thread that I got out to the range last night with a box of factory Winchester 300 Gr and shot a 50 yards. Doing the usual barrel break in procedures and rattling the heck out of my self in the process I managed a few 3 shot groups right on 1 1/2" the others open up to about 2 to 3 inches. Although the sights need adjustment to put me on bulls-eye I am content with what came with the carbine, the saddle ring was the first thing to go as it is impractical for my use and makes to much noise flopping about. I may consider a low power compact scope for load development only and return to the iron sights after that. And by the way it is a bit nasty for recoil, if held loosely your middle finger gets introduced to the finger lever moments before the steel butt plate thumps your shoulder. Thanks again for the load suggestions. David.

[Dean2]

If you want much more pleasant loads to shoot try loading 350 grain Hornady or cast bullets to 1200-1400 fps. Kick way less, real accurate and will kill anything that walks. Both 3031 and Trail Boss make great powders for the 45-70. Try 40 grains of 3031 or 14 grains of TB as starting loads with 350 grain bullets.

The 1885 will take high pressure loads but pushing a 45-70 faster does not make it kill any better. If you use trapdoor loads from Hodgdon's site you get low pressure, enough velocity, great accuracy and more than enough killing power with very low recoil.

[David Henry]

Thanks Dean and thanks Colin for your info on the various loads, and I will get around to experimenting with them. I have gone over Ken Waters "Pet Loads" a few times now so some of that is sinking in, looks like Sunday is a rainy day which will see me at the loading bench working on some of your suggestions. David.

[David Henry]

Ok, an update from a recent range trip with the Trapper. This might also be of interest to the guys looking at Marlins new offering with the 16 1/4'' barrel I think they call it "Dark" model.
Ken Waters states in his Pet Loads that using a Marlin with a 22" barrel his velocities using IMR 3031 powder and a charge of 53 grains behind a 300 grain bullet were 1759 fps. Same load in the Winchester Trapper with a 16 1/2" barrel chronographed at 1705 fps.
Water's data using the 405 grain bullet and 50 grains of IMR 3031 through the same Marlin gave 1623 fps. Same load in the Winchester Trapper was 1621 fps. I ran a few of these loads listed through the Chrony and the results were consistent, and I was a bit surprised or should I say pleased at how the short barrel gave up little in the in velocity loss department over the longer 22" Barrel.
After the velocity tests I decided to mount an older Weaver K4 I had on hand just so I could get a better look at the targets once I moved out to 100 yards from 50 and the factory iron sights I was using for the closer target. And I might add that by this time I had no interest in shooting the remaining 6 rounds of 405 grain loads as the recoil was more than I could stand.
I shot 3 rounds at 100 yards using the 300 grain hollow point bullet and 53 grains of IMR 3031 and a Winchester large rifle primer, the result was a group that measured .720". That's the Gods honest truth, a 3/4" group from the 16 1/2" barrel at 100 yards. Nice. D.H.

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by David Henry

Ok, an update from a recent range trip with the Trapper. This might also be of interest to the guys looking at Marlins new offering with the 16 1/4'' barrel I think they call it "Dark" model.
Ken Waters states in his Pet Loads that using a Marlin with a 22" barrel his velocities using IMR 3031 powder and a charge of 53 grains behind a 300 grain bullet were 1759 fps. Same load in the Winchester Trapper with a 16 1/2" barrel chronographed at 1705 fps.
Water's data using the 405 grain bullet and 50 grains of IMR 3031 through the same Marlin gave 1623 fps. Same load in the Winchester Trapper was 1621 fps. I ran a few of these loads listed through the Chrony and the results were consistent, and I was a bit surprised or should I say pleased at how the short barrel gave up little in the in velocity loss department over the longer 22" Barrel.
After the velocity tests I decided to mount an older Weaver K4 I had on hand just so I could get a better look at the targets once I moved out to 100 yards from 50 and the factory iron sights I was using for the closer target. And I might add that by this time I had no interest in shooting the remaining 6 rounds of 405 grain loads as the recoil was more than I could stand.
I shot 3 rounds at 100 yards using the 300 grain hollow point bullet and 53 grains of IMR 3031 and a Winchester large rifle primer, the result was a group that measured .720". That's the Gods honest truth, a 3/4" group from the 16 1/2" barrel at 100 yards. Nice. D.H.

sounds like a winner!!!

[catnthehat]

Interesting numbers for sure!
I cannot remember shooting much smokeless at all in my 45/70’s but do remember messing with 4198 and 3031 just fir yucks.
All my rifles were essentially black powder rigs with long barrels and either tang or receiver perp sights designed for long range and black powder with big ol’ heavy, flat based lead missiles. These were loaded by the “gospel according to Mathews and Shaver”!
Cat

[David Henry]

Yes Cat, I too have a couple of Paul Mathews books, he is an interesting read for sure. I have also had some experience in the past with the longer barrels in a few 45 caliber chambers and iron sights. I never got very deep into the black powder though. This short barrel rifle is an interesting challenge and I look forward to carrying it this fall. David.

[catnthehat]

Interesting little varbinrx for sure!
My interest was really twigged when I saw they were available in 38/55
I would imagine that 45/70 that loaded to the nines with a heavy bullet it would “Howdy!!” At both ends!
Cat

[David Henry]

In retrospect the 38-55 would have been a more sensible choice for general shooting, but this one will be in my Ebrlestock pack when out in bear and cougar country. David.

[Puma]

Originally Posted by colroggal

Pressure signs are hard to read on a 45-70 case

Have fun and good luck.

Colin

I read them from outside my rifle, via my shoulder.

[Pioneer2]

3/4 throttle and sub 1" groups.................. no need for more powder.

[Pioneer2]

Finn Aagard of G+A fame[writer] when firing a then new .416 Weatherby Magnum had a lens blow out of his glasses on recoil. He then grinned and turned to Weatherby and asked if they could make a gun that took out both lens.

[Bowser]

Accurate Arms 2460 and 405 gr. A marriage made in heaven. Awesome velocity and no pressure. PM for details if interested.

[David Henry]

Thank's Bowser but my shoulder has decided that in order to get those 405 grain bullets up and running it would have to be in a much heavier rifle. I am very happy with what its doing with the 300 grain bullets so I will settle for that in the meantime. D.H.

[fps plus]

Once shot a moose with 45-70 Ruger # 1 using 300 gr hornady hp. I was slightly above it approx 100 yards above., it was slightly quartering towards me . The bullet entered the top of the shoulder and exited the far side rear quarter. I was surprised as it basically penetrated a complete moose

[Big Thumper]

The same rifle in 38/55 would be a sweet little rifle. Any chance there are other cals?

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by Big Thumper

The same rifle in 38/55 would be a sweet little rifle. Any chance there are other cals?

Prophet River has a couple in .405 Winchester.

Colin

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by colroggal

Prophet River has a couple in .405 Winchester.

Colin

The 1885 has been made in everything from 22 Hornet to 458 Win Mag. I have had them in 243, 270, 30-06 and 7 Rem. All you have to do is decide which Cartridge you want and then go looking for it. Still produced in a wide range of chamberings.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/produc...-products.html