Grizzly bear defence

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

There seems to be some confusion relative to 00 buck and slugs to stop a grizzly charge. The shotgun should have no plug, first round should be buck to hopefully blind or slow charging bear, then last 5 slugs are to finish him off at close range. Lastly do not forget your shovel, in Alberta best to SSS.

Ya, no plug needed or wanted for that.

But I'm not seeing how the buckshot has a much of a chance "blinding" it. Lots of holes in the pattern when you are only throwing a dozen balls at it.

And if it does not penetrate enough to hit vitals or break bones, I think it may not slow it down too much. Might give it a little more incentive to maul you faster...

If I was that worried about a defensive shooting, I wouldn't be bothering with the middle S.

[1899b]

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by 1899b

Nice pics! I hardly ever think of taking pics of tracks like that.

Had a problem black bear that had front pads with about that big a spread. I figured he was under 400 lbs. but it took some effort and a jerk to move him a few inches at a time. And when I compare him with other pics of "400 pounders", he looked decidedly brawnier...

Got a bunch of griz around here also. Wish I would have taken a picture of the rear foot print with a point of reference. My (small) boot looked like a little baby foot next to. I don't want to hazard a guess at dimensions, but it was pretty frikken big!

[Tactical Lever]

Nice, with the 30-06 in the print!

Always had a hankering for the Whelen version of that case. Especially around tracks like that.

[raab]

Originally Posted by creeky

Necropsy results showed that 8mm 12 gauge shot penetrated the hide but stopped at the 4’ fat layer on bear 757 (Black Grizzly” Of Whiskey Creek BNP) in 1980.

Bear savvy wardens felt the 8mm shot from 30 feet away only served to infuriate the massive bruin further (761 lbs), they finished the job with a .270 bullet to the head (below ear).


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761lbs for a Grizzly is huge. And as posted above even bear spray can infuriate a bruin. The point is hopefully it deters an attack. If it doesnt you have a slug ready for the next shot with the bear closer.

[1899b]

With the tracks I have seen and two face to faces, I’m not down with the bear spray stuff. Another reason for that train of thought is that it seems to get windier and windier every year. Does that stuff work in windy conditions? I always carry a firearm. And nothing with buckshot! It’s called buckshot for a reason and not bearshot....

[raab]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Ya, no plug needed or wanted for that.

But I'm not seeing how the buckshot has a much of a chance "blinding" it. Lots of holes in the pattern when you are only throwing a dozen balls at it.

And if it does not penetrate enough to hit vitals or break bones, I think it may not slow it down too much. Might give it a little more incentive to maul you faster...

If I was that worried about a defensive shooting, I wouldn't be bothering with the middle S.

Its actually 3 things working in conjunction that may stop the attack. The pain from the 00, the muzzle blast and the sound of the gun shot. If a bear isnt scared off by all three of those things in conjunction, it's questionable if bearspray would deter the bear as well.

[ghostguy6]

I have used bear spray at work against black bears in the past only to have some return an hour later. Bear spray works the first few times a bear gets sprayed. It works surprisingly well in fact. Once the bear gets "used to it" all it does is **** them off. There is always a change of cross contamination to the user or bystanders as well. Having experienced this, it is not something I would recommend because it virtually eliminates your chances of leaving the area immediately.

During my bear training I got the chance to shoot at a barrel rigged on a zipline to simulate a bear attack. Under ideal conditions I was able to get two slugs into the barrel's "kill zone" using my 870 before it closed the distance. I also tried with 00 buck, the shot did not make it through the plastic lid of the barrel. It was a very humbling experience.

From now on, I only load up with 3" slugs to back up the spray.

[FQ2]

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...th-9mm-pistol/





Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5PQOHulAH

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by raab

761lbs for a Grizzly is huge. And as posted above even bear spray can infuriate a bruin. The point is hopefully it deters an attack. If it doesnt you have a slug ready for the next shot with the bear closer.

I don't know if that is huge. It's big for sure, but a black bear has reached 700 lbs. An inland griz has reached 1200, and heard of them getting bigger. Maybe the coastal versions or brown bear as they're called.

The bear that chewed up our member here was an 800 lb. sow. And the bear hanging on the wall at the F+W office in Athabasca was over 800, and not in it's prime. Was killed because it became a problem bear. In it's prime I'm sure it would be over 1000.

I wouldn't count on injuring a bear as a deterrent. Way too many accounts of exactly the opposite effect happening.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by FQ2

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...th-9mm-pistol/





Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5PQOHulAH

Read about that account a while back. He got complacent as he's went so many years without having to kill one. Younger and smaller adolescent bear IIRC. Notice the 9mm bullets went through the bear. Not going to get that with buckshot.

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

Some really good points on caliber size made here. I’ve done plenty of testing with penetration on various things with multiple calibers. The average 9mm will go through a frozen ten inch thick tree at twenty steps, makes me wonder? For 12 gauge and the perfect storm reaction time I would go with a 3” #1buck followed by a 3” Winchester super x hollow point slug. These two rounds took first place in multiple different experiments I have done for shotgun. Personally I leave the shotgun at home when I mean business and go 45/70. The 45/70 hornady I have found the best all around bullet for penetration and accuracy. Bear load in 45/70 hit like a truck but was not as accurate, usually 1.5” low. I would say the worst all around performer in 45/70 would be Remington hollow points. Maybe it’s just my lever action, Marlin SBL, but the hollow point had a tendency to snag on the loading ramp and had horrible penetration characteristics, not even close to hornady. I like the fact that the pointy tip on the Hornady bullet has basically zero chance of any snag in a lever action. Hornady Rocks!

[raab]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

I don't know if that is huge. It's big for sure, but a black bear has reached 700 lbs. An inland griz has reached 1200, and heard of them getting bigger. Maybe the coastal versions or brown bear as they're called.

The bear that chewed up our member here was an 800 lb. sow. And the bear hanging on the wall at the F+W office in Athabasca was over 800, and not in it's prime. Was killed because it became a problem bear. In it's prime I'm sure it would be over 1000.

I wouldn't count on injuring a bear as a deterrent. Way too many accounts of exactly the opposite effect happening.

The average body weight for a Grizzly Boar in Alberta is 400lbs. While they can be bigger, a 750lb and up bear would be considered a trophy for most hunters. Those bears most likely were close to civilization and had good food supply.(Maybe the local dump)

For the record and comparison sake a big black bear is around 400lbs.

And as I said its 3 things happening at once: 1) Is fire from the end of your rifle(muzzle blast), 2) is the pain felt by the bear, and 3) is the loud bang from the gun shot. A bear that's willing to run through all 3 of those things will most likely run through bear spray as well. That's where the slugs come in.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by raab

The average body weight for a Grizzly Boar in Alberta is 400lbs. While they can be bigger, a 750lb and up bear would be considered a trophy for most hunters. Those bears most likely were close to civilization and had good food supply.(Maybe the local dump)

For the record and comparison sake a big black bear is around 400lbs.

And as I said its 3 things happening at once: 1) Is fire from the end of your rifle(muzzle blast), 2) is the pain felt by the bear, and 3) is the loud bang from the gun shot. A bear that's willing to run through all 3 of those things will most likely run through bear spray as well. That's where the slugs come in.

Just curious, but how much up close ,first hand experience do you have with grizzly bears Black bears?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just curious, but how much up close ,first hand experience do you have with grizzly bears Black bears?

His numbers are pretty accurate
Big bears are where the salmon are
Not inland

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

His numbers are pretty accurate
Big bears are where the salmon are
Not inland

I am not questioning his size estimates, I am curious about what experiences he is basing his opinions of bear behavior on.

[raab]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just curious, but how much up close ,first hand experience do you have with grizzly bears Black bears?

Black bears lots as I lived in Slave Lake for a bit, and hunt northern Alberta every year. Grizzly not so much, and I plan to keep it that way. I try to learn as much about both though as I can.

I also have training in high stress situations and how to handle yourself. IMO most people with a bear charging at 50 yards or less wont be able to take a clean shot quickly. If you think under stress you can make a clean shot, then yes one of the higher powered levers might be a better bet. Im guessing most would outright miss on the first shot if a bear suddenly surprised them and was running.

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

There is one huge son of a gun around the Saskatchewan river crossing. Holly smokes! That sucker could look me square in the eyes on all fours. Rumour says he is feeding on black bears. It appears he is being fed well that’s for certain

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by ^v^Tinda wolf^v^

Some really good points on caliber size made here. I’ve done plenty of testing with penetration on various things with multiple calibers. The average 9mm will go through a frozen ten inch thick tree at twenty steps, makes me wonder? For 12 gauge and the perfect storm reaction time I would go with a 3” #1buck followed by a 3” Winchester super x hollow point slug. These two rounds took first place in multiple different experiments I have done for shotgun. Personally I leave the shotgun at home when I mean business and go 45/70. The 45/70 hornady I have found the best all around bullet for penetration and accuracy. Bear load in 45/70 hit like a truck but was not as accurate, usually 1.5” low. I would say the worst all around performer in 45/70 would be Remington hollow points. Maybe it’s just my lever action, Marlin SBL, but the hollow point had a tendency to snag on the loading ramp and had horrible penetration characteristics, not even close to hornady. I like the fact that the pointy tip on the Hornady bullet has basically zero chance of any snag in a lever action. Hornady Rocks!

I’m with ya on the 45/70. I load mine up pretty hot with 405 grain flat nose @ around 1900fps. It gets incredible penetration. I’ll take that in closer quarters over anything mentioned, shy of a pistol if we were allowed to carry them.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by ^v^Tinda wolf^v^

Some really good points on caliber size made here. I’ve done plenty of testing with penetration on various things with multiple calibers. The average 9mm will go through a frozen ten inch thick tree at twenty steps, makes me wonder? For 12 gauge and the perfect storm reaction time I would go with a 3” #1buck followed by a 3” Winchester super x hollow point slug. These two rounds took first place in multiple different experiments I have done for shotgun. Personally I leave the shotgun at home when I mean business and go 45/70. The 45/70 hornady I have found the best all around bullet for penetration and accuracy. Bear load in 45/70 hit like a truck but was not as accurate, usually 1.5” low. I would say the worst all around performer in 45/70 would be Remington hollow points. Maybe it’s just my lever action, Marlin SBL, but the hollow point had a tendency to snag on the loading ramp and had horrible penetration characteristics, not even close to hornady. I like the fact that the pointy tip on the Hornady bullet has basically zero chance of any snag in a lever action. Hornady Rocks!

I'm not surprised you found the 405 gr. Core Loct Rem. to not be a very tough bullet. But I am surprised that you like the gummy tips. They seemed fragile when I fooled around with a few.

And after reviewing the ballistics, I now look for 400-430 gr. FN .458 for the 45-70. Also hear good things about the Lyman 480 gr. cast which supposedly cycles through a Marlin.

[creeky]

Looks like pepper spray saved the day, yesterday-victim drops her bear spray, picks it up & bear bites her hand punctures canister deploying it into it's own face. Bear stands down.

COs not %100 sure of species yet, bear on a moose carcass:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...tack-1.4801282


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[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by raab

The average body weight for a Grizzly Boar in Alberta is 400lbs. While they can be bigger, a 750lb and up bear would be considered a trophy for most hunters. Those bears most likely were close to civilization and had good food supply.(Maybe the local dump)

For the record and comparison sake a big black bear is around 400lbs.

And as I said its 3 things happening at once: 1) Is fire from the end of your rifle(muzzle blast), 2) is the pain felt by the bear, and 3) is the loud bang from the gun shot. A bear that's willing to run through all 3 of those things will most likely run through bear spray as well. That's where the slugs come in.

I know what the averages are. And 750 is on the upper end of "average" still according to a couple sources anyway. And according to F+W the 2 bears that had to be put down were both around 800. One boar past his prime, and not in great shape, and one sow with cub.

A nice black bear is 400. One that topped 700 was taken in Manitoba I believe. Might be a record set in Montana as well IIRC.

What are your plans if you run into a huge one, that doesn't stop and expose his ear so you can put a ball into a soft spot? I just don't understand why someone would load something for defense that a bear will "run through". Isn't that a little like responding to an armed attacker with a nerf gun or bb gun as your first shot?

"Hey wait up, bear! I'm loaded for average and small! Gimme a sec while I get a more suitable gun/ammo."

Just so you're "bear aware", the grizzly around here look pretty fair sized.

The difference between using a gun or spray is that with the spray, it affects their breathing and sight temporarily, but hasn't injured them. That makes a big difference in andrenal response.

Once you've committed to injuring a bear, you might want it on the ground or headed that way about 1/8 second later. Give or take a 1/16. A bear might turn, or run, but one that's decided to attack might not.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

I know what the averages are. And 750 is on the upper end of "average" still according to a couple sources anyway. And according to F+W the 2 bears that had to be put down were both around 800. One boar past his prime, and not in great shape, and one sow with cub.

A nice black bear is 400. One that topped 700 was taken in Manitoba I believe. Might be a record set in Montana as well IIRC.

What are your plans if you run into a huge one, that doesn't stop and expose his ear so you can put a ball into a soft spot? I just don't understand why someone would load something for defense that a bear will "run through". Isn't that a little like responding to an armed attacker with a nerf gun or bb gun as your first shot?

"Hey wait up, bear! I'm loaded for average and small! Gimme a sec while I get a more suitable gun/ammo."

Just so you're "bear aware", the grizzly around here look pretty fair sized.

The difference between using a gun or spray is that with the spray, it affects their breathing and sight temporarily, but hasn't injured them. That makes a big difference in andrenal response.

Once you've committed to injuring a bear, you might want it on the ground or headed that way about 1/8 second later. Give or take a 1/16. A bear might turn, or run, but one that's decided to attack might not.

So what are the alternatives? You can have bear spray, which a bear may or may not run through. Especially a big bear. Or you can try to quickly get a shot off with a lever action, most likely missing or having the bear on top of you before you get a shot off. Also worth taking into account that most guys with levers dont have the hammer cocked when carrying. So that again will reduce your response time as you either have to cycle or re-cock the hammer before firing. In comparison quite a few guys will walk with a bolt cocked and safety on.

If you do want to use the argument that a rifle is better in that situation fine. But Id contend it should be a controlled round feed, bolt action rifle with open sights or a 1-4x scope set low. The rifle should be a large cartridge like a 375 H&H, and it should be a heavy duty bullet like a Barnes TSX. Why? Because you have approximately 3.4 seconds if the bear is at 50 yards to aim accurately and get a shot off. With a bolt action most will carry it with a round chambered and safety on. When the bear starts charging you know you have one shot with this gun. So you have to take your time and make sure the shot counts. As the poster above did, you want to wait until the bear is almost on top of you before pulling the trigger. Ive seen a black bear shot 5 times with a .270Win before it went down. Bears are tough and now we're not talking about turning a bear, we're talking about for sure killing it. The 45-70 will do as well, and really it's all what you feel more comfortable with. For me a bolt action in our climate gives me the most assurance that it will fire when I pull the trigger.

In saying that for the average person it would be better to connect with something and hopefully turn the bear then to miss. Once safe a call could be made to F&W reporting what happened and they could make the decision on whether or not to pursue the bear. The most important thing is to practice and be comfortable with whatever your shooting.

On another note I was wondering if anyone on here knows what the F&W officers used in this story? My guess would be their Wingmaster 870 loaded with slugs.

http://hintonvoice.com/lucky-to-be-a...k-p3154-73.htm

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

I'm not surprised you found the 405 gr. Core Loct Rem. to not be a very tough bullet. But I am surprised that you like the gummy tips. They seemed fragile when I fooled around with a few.

And after reviewing the ballistics, I now look for 400-430 gr. FN .458 for the 45-70. Also hear good things about the Lyman 480 gr. cast which supposedly cycles through a Marlin.

I was sceptical with Hornady at first simply because the way it looks but it was everything else that made it shine for me. The shorter case makes it undesirable for reloading but I don’t reload anyways. Quick target acquisition on rapid fire, accuracy and penetration. With the hot bear load and same scenario I’m all over the map and usually slice my finger on the trigger in the process. I still need to smooth that bad boy down a bit

[TheIceTitan]

Originally Posted by ^v^Tinda wolf^v^

There is one huge son of a gun around the Saskatchewan river crossing. Holly smokes! That sucker could look me square in the eyes on all fours. Rumour says he is feeding on black bears. It appears he is being fed well that’s for certain

When did you last see him? I was thinking of heading up there to do some scrambling.

[Nikanit]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Yup and the grey matter between the ears needs to be tuned into the environment your in, situational awareness etc....if it's not working then no matter what you got your just a bear bowl movement....

Hell yes! I am super tuned to the sounds and smells as well as always looking behind me. I cannot climb into a tree blind, So I hide VERY well and sit in ground blinds that I've made out of the surrounding terrain. My senses are so aware you wouldn't believe it. If I sense anything bad about an area or hear something off like no birds, or a bear track or scat I'll leave, and I have in the past.

[scruffy]

I have been on three Alaskan brown bear hunts and the guns that the guides used were very interesting to me.

Rifles used were 375 Ruger, 45/70, 338 … etc. Personally I used an ancient 8 Mag wildcat that is 8mmx338 and on the third trip a 375 Ruger.


There were also a lot of moose hunters that one year and it seemed every Alaskan guide also carried a handgun. Even the two pilots carried pistols and the chap that flew regular routes out of Anchorage into the Mulchatna River area said that he had shot two brown bears with his .44 Mag.

Pistols were all big suckers with 460, 500 SxW along with the big 44 Mag Smiths. Two 'cowboy' types guides both had big 44 mags in Ruger single action revolvers … Super Black Hawks?

One 44 Mag was a Taurus.

No one, not even the lady cook in the second camp, used bear spray. She actually lost the bosse's 44 Mag while picking blue berries … never did find it.


One chap wounded about a seven foot brown bear and the Wyoming guide who called himself 'Flapjack" went after it with an 870 pump shotgun with the extended magazine. The bear got up in front of him, roared and he unleashed hell fire - he shot that bear 7 times as fast as he could pump that gun.

The gun had one shell left in it when he quit shooting. It was not charging.
I have a photo of three of the recovered slugs. Not sure the make anymore.

The guides told of a moose being killed and the packer went to pack it out and found a brown bear on it. When the pilot showed up to ferry the meat out he found out that the packer had left the bear with the meat so he grabbed the guy's Marlin lever action 45/70 and went out to sort the beast out. The bear came for him and he did not realize that it had that cross bolt safety or what ever it is called. He wasn't killed but probably felt like it by the time the mauling was over.

Another chap was attacked by a brown bear and somehow, do not practice this at home, managed to take out his sheath knife and got a good enough stab or two in that the bear actually died. Of course he was horribly mauled. In Alaska, when an animal is killed in self defence, it is forfeited to the state and later auctioned off to the public.

I was told that the victim came to buy the bear skin and skull and no one bid against him.

Having a very good look at a live and close up brown bear along with more casual looking after it was dead - yikes … I would hate to try to stop a charge with bear spray or any kind of pistol. I would feel more confident with a big rifle.

With that pump shotgun I reckon that I would go home to my wife that night - without being carried by six friends.


One more comment in this long winded diatribe - sitting beside a guide in the tall grass beside a salmon stream I asked the guy what to do if a bear showed up on the opposite side of my left handed shooting .. He said that he would hand me his pistol for the shot. That would have ended badly .. :

[Big Grey Wolf]

Last year I was at shooting range when 3-4 F & W guys came to practise. They used short shot guns with slugs and 30-06 rifles.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by raab

So what are the alternatives? You can have bear spray, which a bear may or may not run through. Especially a big bear. Or you can try to quickly get a shot off with a lever action, most likely missing or having the bear on top of you before you get a shot off. Also worth taking into account that most guys with levers dont have the hammer cocked when carrying. So that again will reduce your response time as you either have to cycle or re-cock the hammer before firing. In comparison quite a few guys will walk with a bolt cocked and safety on.

If you do want to use the argument that a rifle is better in that situation fine. But Id contend it should be a controlled round feed, bolt action rifle with open sights or a 1-4x scope set low. The rifle should be a large cartridge like a 375 H&H, and it should be a heavy duty bullet like a Barnes TSX. Why? Because you have approximately 3.4 seconds if the bear is at 50 yards to aim accurately and get a shot off. With a bolt action most will carry it with a round chambered and safety on. When the bear starts charging you know you have one shot with this gun. So you have to take your time and make sure the shot counts. As the poster above did, you want to wait until the bear is almost on top of you before pulling the trigger. Ive seen a black bear shot 5 times with a .270Win before it went down. Bears are tough and now we're not talking about turning a bear, we're talking about for sure killing it. The 45-70 will do as well, and really it's all what you feel more comfortable with. For me a bolt action in our climate gives me the most assurance that it will fire when I pull the trigger.

In saying that for the average person it would be better to connect with something and hopefully turn the bear then to miss. Once safe a call could be made to F&W reporting what happened and they could make the decision on whether or not to pursue the bear. The most important thing is to practice and be comfortable with whatever your shooting.

On another note I was wondering if anyone on here knows what the F&W officers used in this story? My guess would be their Wingmaster 870 loaded with slugs.

http://hintonvoice.com/lucky-to-be-a...k-p3154-73.htm

Why do you figure that the safety it so much faster that cocking a hammer? I don't know about everyone else, but usually my lever has one in the chamber, on half cock unless it's a Henry which has a trigger pull safety, and no separate safety on. And how is the bolt action shooter assured of a hit vs. a guy with lever?

If I am carrying a bolt action, and not hunting I won't have one chambered.
If it is a pump action with no external hammer I won't have one chambered either.

One extreme to the other. A lever action in .44 Magnum, 30-30, or bolt in .308, or 6.5x55 is still miles better than a load of buckshot. Controlled round feed is nice, but I don't consider that to be the "be all and end all" of big game rifle technology. A shotgun won't be controlled round feed and neither will a lever action, pump rifle, or many other suitable bolt actions.

The H&H is nice, but many won't be able to handle it effectively, and would be better served by a smaller cartridge that they can handle.

[Runewolf1973]

Just think of Seth Kinman while your out there. He apparently shot and killed something like 800 grizzly bears...with a single shot muzzleloader!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Kinman