Grizzly bear defence

[jack-of-all-mastr-of-none]

Being a new hunter it’s a bit daunting thinking about bow hunting grizzly country alone, is any body carrying one of those small NR shotguns for self defence rather than spray? Is it even legal to do so?

[35 whelen]

I think pepper spray has been proven more effective than carrying a firearm you probably won't even get a shot off

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[muirsy]

My hunting partner and I each carry spray and I carry a 45-70 as insurance. To be honest this year I might not even bother because realistically if we were in a real pickle it would be tough to shoulder it and get a round off.

Packing out meat....yeah, I'd be bringing some insurance back in there for sure on multiple trips.

I'm of the mind that your best defence is in the space between your own ears. Staying aware, being smart about things.

With that said, I think the fact that hunters/outdoorsmen can't get a special concealed carry permit for a pistol while in the mountains is absolute garbage.

[TheIceTitan]

Bear spray and, if worst comes to worst, a shotgun with 00.

[Big Grey Wolf]

By far best defence is short shotgun loaded with 00 buck and slugs with some practice. However bear spray should also be considered even though less effective alternative. I like my 357 magnum handgun, but also hope I will never have to use it.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

I think pepper spray has been proven more effective than carrying a firearm you probably won't even get a shot off

As much as I prefer the stopping power of a firearm, I have to agree - spray is a lot lighter to carry as well. I pack it when bowhunting and bird hunting. I sometimes carry bangers as well.

Always good to practice as well - practice spray is available for that purpose.

[Buckhorn2]

If your hunting with partner Brass knuckles and/or nunchucks. All it will take is one good pop on his chin, he will go down the bear will get him. You will be able to escape at just a brisk walk.


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[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

By far best defence is short shotgun loaded with 00 buck and slugs with some practice. However bear spray should also be considered even though less effective alternative. I like my 357 magnum handgun, but also hope I will never have to use it.

Your talking about the less effective bear spray... you pull a .357 mag on a bear and it will laugh as it shoved it up your rear end... I don’t know anyone that carries a .357 for bear defense. Minimum of .44 at least!

[Tactical Lever]

A couple members mentioned buck and slugs. 00 or 000 isn't a great bet for penetration. And most of the slugs aren't too hot either. I'd be ok with buck, for a black bear, and full frontal type shot going for the head. Slug for a similar shot on a grizzly, but I would rather have better performing bullets. Even out of a smaller pistol.

Going to a good penetrating slug like Brenneke though would a game changer for the shogun.

[bessiedog]

Nope..... ninja sword.... or samurai sword... all the way.

You’ll look soooo badass in the Bush and on the river as a bonus.

Bears fear ninjas..... everyone knows that.

[raab]

As others have said a shotgun with alternating buckshot and slug loads is best for stopping a bear. Bear spray is also effective from what I heard. One thing I'd suggest with bear spray is to carry 2 bottles not 1. I did some practice with expired cans this spring, and 1 bottle will shoot maybe 20 secs max.

In saying that as others have said as well your best defense against a bear is your brain, and doing everything in your power to avoid them. If you do encounter one that doesnt just run off its good to know the type of bear your dealing with in regards to predatory vs defensive. The more you learn about them the safer you'll be.

[Nikanit]

We both have pepper spray as well as the 45.70 Marlin, or the sawed off ghetto blaster with slugs. Have not run into a bear yet although we hunt a lot in grizzly country, but nice to have those guns while sleeping

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by raab

As others have said a shotgun with alternating buckshot and slug loads is best for stopping a bear. Bear spray is also effective from what I heard. One thing I'd suggest with bear spray is to carry 2 bottles not 1. I did some practice with expired cans this spring, and 1 bottle will shoot maybe 20 secs max.

In saying that as others have said as well your best defense against a bear is your brain, and doing everything in your power to avoid them. If you do encounter one that doesnt just run off its good to know the type of bear your dealing with in regards to predatory vs defensive. The more you learn about them the safer you'll be.

Hardly best! And the topic was grizzly. If you check out how buckshot and most slugs penetrate, you'd probably change your mind.

Better than a sharp stick, but a round of buck takes a distant backseat to what would be considered pretty pedestrian loads from small pistols.

Learning about them is great. Mostly to tell you when your time is up!

[270person]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

Your talking about the less effective bear spray... you pull a .357 mag on a bear and it will laugh as it shoved it up your rear end... I don’t know anyone that carries a .357 for bear defense. Minimum of .44 at least!

I'd agree. Had one for years. 158 grain bullet at 1300 fps? Yawn.

Might bounce some dust off a grizzlies hide I guess but you'd have to be damn lucky to kill one. Definitely not a desirable weapon to have at hand.

I wouldn't want any handgun in a bear confrontation to be very honest.

[astepanuk]

I’ll be heading to in a few weeks in some pretty well populated grizzly country we will all be packing bear spray 24/7.

[bezzola]

I carry spray and if we are packing out an animal i pack my short defence 12g
Slugs and buck shot is very effective also.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Guys, you keep your bear spray, I agree 44 better than 357 mag, however my +p loads that almost take my arm off my shoulder have good penetration. You Americans may not have heard how our little lady in Slave lake killed the B+C present Alberta record grizz with 22 longs and rabbit gun. It was the North American record for number years but you Americans always have bigger grizz than us Albertans.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Hardly best! And the topic was grizzly. If you check out how buckshot and most slugs penetrate, you'd probably change your mind.

Better than a sharp stick, but a round of buck takes a distant backseat to what would be considered pretty pedestrian loads from small pistols.

Learning about them is great. Mostly to tell you when your time is up!

While there may be better options for stopping a bear in a low stress environment. I think a mix of buckshot and slugs is the best for the average hunter on a bear charging them from 50 yards or less. The buckshot doesnt have to kill the bear, you just want to injure it enough that it doesnt want to kill you. Which a load of buckshot to the face of a bear at under 20 yards should do.

If you learn about them, you'll understand where theyre most likely to be found, and know what areas to avoid. Which will minimize your chances of encountering one.

[TheIceTitan]

Grizzly expert Stephen Herrero devotes some significant space in his book Bear Attacks to this issue (pg. 244-246 of first edition; I'm not sure if the recommendations were changed in the second edition):

Shotgun: 00 reliably effective within 50-65 feet; slugs adequate at close range.
Rifle: US Forest Service researchers in Alaska deemed .458 Win Mag w/ 510-gr as the best, then .375 H&H Mag w/ 300-gr, then .338 Win Mag w/ 300-gr, then .30-06 w/ 220-gr. In other words, larger soft-point calibres are best -- if the recoil can be tolerated.
Handgun: .44 Magnum w/ 240-gr

Open sights are a must; and be able to shoot from the hip.

Given his unequaled field experience with grizzlies, he has first-hand accounts of the effectiveness of certain rounds from his own and his colleagues' experiences:

Charging female grizzly killed at 50 feet with large-diameter buckshot.
Charging female grizzly stopped at 12 feet with large-diameter buckshot, then dispatched with a second round.
Pursuing female grizzly killed with a rifled slug.
Charging female grizzly killed at 8-9 paces with .338 Win

The most important take-away:

The psychological impact of a charging grizzly is something difficult to simulate in training.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by raab

While there may be better options for stopping a bear in a low stress environment. I think a mix of buckshot and slugs is the best for the average hunter on a bear charging them from 50 yards or less. The buckshot doesnt have to kill the bear, you just want to injure it enough that it doesnt want to kill you. Which a load of buckshot to the face of a bear at under 20 yards should do.

If you learn about them, you'll understand where theyre most likely to be found, and know what areas to avoid. Which will minimize your chances of encountering one.

Buck will have a pretty large spread with lots of big holes at 50 yards. I believe that with the right choke (I believe modified works best, most of the time), that guys have killed deer that far, but I think that it's too easy to have a deer almost able to slip through that pattern. In an ounce and a half you're only going to have either 9 .36 cal balls, or 12 .36 cal balls in the air weighing either 70 or 55 gr. approximately.

A typical modified choke (you could go tighter, but the added constriction seems to really mess up the pattern when talking about buck, and some go looser), will give you a pattern of about 4 1/2 feet at 50 yards. That's a lot of space in between balls.

A typical buckshot load will be somewhere around 1300 fps mv. That means every 70 gr. ball will have an energy of 263 foot lbs. Due to the abysmal SD of round ball, a perfectly round, undeformed ball will already have slowed to 857 fps, carrying 114 ft/lb of energy.

While the energy measure doesn't tell the whole story, the very poor sectional density means it penetrate extremely poorly.

From my own fooling around, I've determined that a .22 LR will handily outpenetrate 00 buck. Heck, I've seen where a .22 will outpenetrate a soft 20 gauge slug!

Of course at touching distance in the right spot maybe that doesn't matter so much either. I knew a couple of FW guys that dispatched trapped black bears with bird shot to lessen the chances of ricochets. Not the first time I've heard of bird shot killing black bears, either.

Bears aren't like humans, and won't just stop because they get hurt. I believe it was Andy Runyan who told of a smaller grizz/brown bear running down the beach and making good time with powdered bone where a shoulder used to be!

There was a guy who shot a black bear, and was ready to start skinning, when the bear got up and tore half of his face off with one swipe. The guy was lucky to have survived and I believe ended up functionally blind.

One of our members here shot a female grizzly and 12 out of 13 shots penetrated straight though IIRC, and she still did a number on him before dying.

Treadwell was a "grizzly expert", and truthfully he spent enough time with them that he had more practical experience than most of us will amass. He got mauled to death in front of his wife.

Not one of us will avoid potential bear territory when we are hiking and hunting. How do you even do that?!

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by TheIceTitan

Grizzly expert Stephen Herrero devotes some significant space in his book Bear Attacks to this issue (pg. 244-246 of first edition; I'm not sure if the recommendations were changed in the second edition):

Shotgun: 00 reliably effective within 50-65 feet; slugs adequate at close range.
Rifle: US Forest Service researchers in Alaska deemed .458 Win Mag w/ 510-gr as the best, then .375 H&H Mag w/ 300-gr, then .338 Win Mag w/ 300-gr, then .30-06 w/ 220-gr. In other words, larger soft-point calibres are best -- if the recoil can be tolerated.
Handgun: .44 Magnum w/ 240-gr

Open sights are a must; and be able to shoot from the hip.

Given his unequaled field experience with grizzlies, he has first-hand accounts of the effectiveness of certain rounds from his own and his colleagues' experiences:

Charging female grizzly killed at 50 feet with large-diameter buckshot.
Charging female grizzly stopped at 12 feet with large-diameter buckshot, then dispatched with a second round.
Pursuing female grizzly killed with a rifled slug.
Charging female grizzly killed at 8-9 paces with .338 Win

The most important take-away:

The psychological impact of a charging grizzly is something difficult to simulate in training.

A few things might have "worked" but some of the results don't work well enough for me to have complete trust in them. I guess I'd put it like this: If I have it on me, I would use the buckshot, or a dead soft "foster type" slug.

I believe that the U.S. forest rangers don't have a very favourable view of buckshot. Various people will weigh that differently.

Some people would look at me funny, but I would sooner have a .357 pistol, or properly loaded 9mm with heavy bullets over buck. But then a .357 will out penetrate buck and some slugs by about 4 times. And the 9mm by quite a margin will beat shotgun penetration. That changes with slugs meant for heavy game, and using a shotgun with a sighting system.

[Buckhorn2]

If Treadwell is the grizzly man movie I dont consider him an expert. he may have been a smart man but doing what he did had no respect for those bears.

Am i the only one left who doesnt carry bear defense. If im going into bears or wolves house (anywhere in the woods or outdoors really) im trespassing, if my time comes it comes. Id do the same thing if trespassers came into my home, i have a family and two young kids. When kids are with me I will take a can of spray. If i was worried about bears or wolves or animals i wouldnt enjoy myself in the woods plus would scare the **** out of my kids if i was telling them to watch out for bears.

Ive seen what buckshot or slugs or even a .22 will penetrate id have no worries about a shotgun for bear defense as long as it hits its mark.


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[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Nikanit

We both have pepper spray as well as the 45.70 Marlin, or the sawed off ghetto blaster with slugs. Have not run into a bear yet although we hunt a lot in grizzly country, but nice to have those guns while sleeping

Yup and the grey matter between the ears needs to be tuned into the environment your in, situational awareness etc....if it's not working then no matter what you got your just a bear bowl movement....

[NCC]

I agree 100% with Tactical Lever said. Other than being a pump action which is quick to cycle, I don't get the attraction to shotguns for bear defence. I would choose a Remington 760 rifle or a lever action 30-30 instead. The spray and pray option with buckshot doesn't work for me.

For everyone giant grizzly that has been killed with a 22, there has been 100 grizzlies that have ran through bullets from high powered rifles and lived long enough to inflict damage. I wouldn't base my self defence plan on one lucky shot that happened 60 years ago.

I also get tired of hearing the "I'm too smart and aware to get attacked by a bear" crowd. If you're calling elk and a gbear comes crashing out of the alders from 10 yards away, you may have a bad day regardless of weapon, experience, or anything else other than luck. I was out sheep hunting once and came around a corner to find a gbear 40 yards away on the trail. It bluff charged, and had the charge been real I would have been finished before I had a chance to react. Have one of your kids or buddies charge you from 10 yards away and find out how much time you really have to draw, remove the safety, aim and trigger your bear spray. I don't stay out of the bush because of gbears, but I know the risk of being killed by one is real. I also don't think everyone who gets attacked is a fool that should not have been in the bush.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Treadwell was a "grizzly expert", and truthfully he spent enough time with them that he had more practical experience than most of us will amass. He got mauled to death in front of his wife.

Actually Treadwell was an "enthusiast and grizzly fanboy." Not an expert by a long stretch. He was also a fool and lived in some sort of fantasyland full of fairies and magic foo foo dust where all bears lie on your pillows waiting to be hugged at night.

His "girlfriend" must have been also. She got smoked by the same bear and both of them were pretty much eaten up.

As for weapon of choice, if one even has the opportunity to get off a shot, 12 gauge all the way. At close range, 10-15 yards and under, they're devastating, and the odds of missing are minimal. To heck with the 50 yards stuff. Wait til it's 20 yards away and start blasting. Semi Auto..What plug?

At the very worst they'll have a healthy migraine while chewing off your legs.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by 270person

I'd agree. Had one for years. 158 grain bullet at 1300 fps? Yawn.

Might bounce some dust off a grizzlies hide I guess but you'd have to be damn lucky to kill one. Definitely not a desirable weapon to have at hand.

I wouldn't want any handgun in a bear confrontation to be very honest.

Yep not saying it wouldn’t do anything but not my preference. The fiancés dad just bought a 460smith for bear defense. I had a good laugh at that hand cannon but he hunts strictly in griz country in WY and MT more than pretty much anyone I know except guides.

On a side note I investigated a DLP grizzly killing last year that took 1 round from a 9mm at 24 yards and died. Darn lucky is all I have to say. A wounded griz is not something I want to chase after which is all those people promoting buck shot to the face are doing. Yep I’m safe but now someone else has to go risk their lives putting this animal down because I’m too dumb to use something else. I investigated 6 grizzly deaths last year and had to hike in on 4 of them because we didn’t know where they were or if they were dead. I took a rifle on one the rest were my shotgun loaded with nothing but slugs. Even then first line of defense is bear spray. Heck a kid yesterday was mauled by a griz in Yellowstone and his parents topped the attack with ..... bear spray!

You arm chair Qb’S do what you like but I will stick with the professionals suggestions.

[Red Bullets]

I'm not trying to be funny or an "oldtimer redneck" by saying this...

When I was in the back country of BC chasing gold 35 years ago I met some of the oldtime miners that had been in the back country mining since the 1930's. We talked about bears and those men did use shotguns for protection.

They talked about the buckshot and slugs method of lead therapy. One thing they told me that I haven't seen mentioned was that the first shot should be number 4 or 6 bird shot at closer ranges. Birdshot shot in a bears face will blind the bear which gives the human an advantage for the follow up shots with 00 buckshot and slugs. When a bear is shot in the face with the birdshot they will typically rub their face with their paws or on the ground.

I was charged by a good sized black once and like the Ice Titan mentioned you can't train for that deer in the headlights feeling a charging bear creates. That bear covered 30 years in a second. I didn't have time to blink. If I had been armed at the time I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have had time to react. Even from the hip. Luckily the bear stopped 10 feet short. I can't imagine the feeling a charging grizzly would create.

[West O'5]

I get a kick out of all these bear spray advocates that claim you’ll never get a shot off in time with a 12ga and buckshot but apparantley bear spray is miraculously lightning fast?
.....and buckshot or slugs won’t achieve effective penetration??
Seriously??
Gimme a break!!
My cheap opinion for what’s worth,having killed several deer with both slugs and buckshot out to 50 yards,is that if an aggressive grizz is close enough that I feel threatened enough to shoot it,a face full of buckshot is gonna be a serious deterrent if not instantly or near instantly lethal,as would be a 12ga slug front on in the chest/neck/ head or broadside in the vitals.If he’s close enough for bear spray to be effective,then he’s plenty close enough to kill or turn away with buckshot/slugs.....and I’m really not interested in or concerned about not choosing a non-lethal detterant.....an aggressive/would be attacker bear should be put down on the spot before it hurts or kills someone less prepared,and I won’t lose a minute sleep over it .
Now that said,I do carry spray as well,as I believe it might be your only hope if taken by surprise and might even stop a mauling,but the first thing I’m reaching for in a bear encounter while I’m bowhunting/flyfishing is my gun.
I carry either my 14” barreled 870 with custom birdshead grip which comes in at just a hair over legal 27.6” OAL,or my Rossi Ranch Hand .45LC with P+ loads which exceed the energy of standard/off the shelf .44mag fodder.
Rifle hunting I don’t carry spray but probably not a bad idea as again,as already said,might be a last resort if taken by surprise and already getting chewed up,but aside from a surprise charge out of nowhere I’m going down in a pile of spent brass and I’m not waiting til he’s inside 10 yards or playing guessing games with bluff charges.....if I feel threatened I’m shooting first and guessing as to his intentions later.

[glen moa]

12ga pump 20”smooth bore with sights and buck shot.
I’d start at 40 yards if I had the chance.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

There is a reason all the boys in Alaska guiding on the peninsula pack centerfire rifles. The internet myth is a shotgun, then someone added to it by saying alternating buck and slugs.

We had a pretty hairy encounter and it would not have ended well with buck shot from a pump spraying around. Actually we wouldn’t have been able to shoot because precision was needed.