Wild horses?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by yukon12

If the Alberta goverment claims ownership of the animals then they open themselves up to law suites from locals for damages unless they declare them wildlife and put them under the wildlife act.

Just curious on the amounts of damage that locals get due to wild or feral horses? I live near some of the highest populations of these horses and know everyone that ranches along the forest reserve and other than the odd stud coming ing and pestering horses ive never heard of damage. Just what ive seen where I live.

Oh and Yukon I hope your friends get what ever they deserve on these charges. If there innocent or guilty.

SG

[yukon12]

Hi Sheep Guide,

I think the biggest claims would be from grazing lease owners.

I agree these guys who I think are good guys should get what they deserve. If their guilty then they should be convicted if the law is applicable but if they did not do it and are victims of reward money and crazy people that Nixon is paid and is still paid to keep care of then I hope he gets off as soon as possible.

The facts are the RCMP has not discloused any evidince. They say the horse was shoot sometime between April and November and they only have a skelton that they had to hire someoneto prove was a horse.

Either way it is time to figure out scientifcly where the feral horses stand. Also there is no differnce legally between feral horses and feral pigs.

Meanwhile they are spending all this time on a horse and the elk poplulation west of sundre continues to drop. They do not enforce the access rules in the Ghost and on the may long weekend the crazies will show up again and destroy the west country.

The RCMP and Fish and Wildlife should get their priorities straight. I say again if they have evidince then disclouse it. You guys watch March 29 it will be postpone again because of no discloure.

[KBF]

I hear they make great bait sites for bears, but ya gotta shootem close to the sight so ya dont have to drag them.Isnt bear season coming up?

[guywiththemule]

[QUOTE=yukon12;541591]Also the accused are not charged under the alberta stray act. They are charged under section 444 of the criminal code which applies only to privately owned animals. No one in canada has ever been convicted under this law unless teh crown could show ownership.

If the Alberta goverment claims ownership of the animals then they open themselves up to law suites from locals for damages unless they declare them wildlife and put them under the wildlife act.[/Q But I think the Crown is going to push either for unknown ownership(stray) or native ownership(can of worms) and try to avoid government ownership or stewardship(because of lobbists and wild horses lovers) P.S. Crown can delay disclosurer until appropriate investigation has been conducted by RCMP members.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by yukon12

Hi Sheep Guide,

I think the biggest claims would be from grazing lease owners.

Well if someone that has a grazing lease that the government has control of decides to go after damages how long do you think they will have a lease?

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by yukon12

Also the accused are not charged under the alberta stray act. They are charged under section 444 of the criminal code which applies only to privately owned animals.

I agree.

If the Alberta goverment claims ownership of the animals then they open themselves up to law suites from locals for damages unless they declare them wildlife and put them under the wildlife act.

Agree again. Its time these feral horses stopped being managed by public opinion and started being managed by some good science. Let the government claim ownership and lets see some tags issued.

Just to make something clear, to some perhaps bit more ignorant... These horses are not the great decendants of the horses that inhabited North America 10 000 years ago. They are the cross bred offspring of horses put out by poor families tired of them burning hay. Additionally; no, you can't go out with the boots you dig out once a year for the Stampede and rope & break one of these horses. Very few people in Alberta have the skill to actually accomplish this, its allot cheaper and results in allot less cracked skulls to just buy a well bred horse.

Take a drive out the coal camp, have a look at these majestic turd machines you love. They run the elk off the spring grass, they run the elk outa the winter pasture... They chase the elk from the mineral licks... When they are having thier young they congregate in area's where they are not very likely to be preyed upon (IE: Middle of the road around a blind corner at 6 am)...

On the bright side, once the government claims ownership.... maybe we can get down to work slaughtering them and dividing them up between the French & the glue factories down south. Maybe we can use some of the money to either pay off the provincial debt or get a sweet horse head for all our Fish & Wildlife Offices.

If you want a pretty horse, go buy one.

[crazy_davey]

There ya go Sneeze, those are some opinions and facts I can agree with

[steve]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

I agree.




Agree again. Its time these feral horses stopped being managed by public opinion and started being managed by some good science. Let the government claim ownership and lets see some tags issued.

Just to make something clear, to some perhaps bit more ignorant... These horses are not the great decendants of the horses that inhabited North America 10 000 years ago. They are the cross bred offspring of horses put out by poor families tired of them burning hay. Additionally; no, you can't go out with the boots you dig out once a year for the Stampede and rope & break one of these horses. Very few people in Alberta have the skill to actually accomplish this, its allot cheaper and results in allot less cracked skulls to just buy a well bred horse.

Take a drive out the coal camp, have a look at these majestic turd machines you love. They run the elk off the spring grass, they run the elk outa the winter pasture... They chase the elk from the mineral licks... When they are having thier young they congregate in area's where they are not very likely to be preyed upon (IE: Middle of the road around a blind corner at 6 am)...

On the bright side, once the government claims ownership.... maybe we can get down to work slaughtering them and dividing them up between the French & the glue factories down south. Maybe we can use some of the money to either pay off the provincial debt or get a sweet horse head for all our Fish & Wildlife Offices.

If you want a pretty horse, go buy one.

They have advanced digestive systems, can gain weight off forage that a domestic horse whould lose weight on. Short, stocky, make a great mountain horse. Studs are like puppies when they associate you with food.

[ry guy]

Hmmm we can argue wild horse whether they are good or bad but it seems the guys the RCMP charged are innocent. check out the herald article.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Sh...659/story.html

[Jamie]

Ok, this is the part I hate


"About nine months after he moved the horse, Nixon was at the home on Mountain Aire property when he got a call from Anderson telling him he had just been arrested for “killing a cow.”

Nixon opened his front door and his home was surrounded by 10 RCMP officers from three different detachments, some with their guns drawn and some of whom he once considered close friends.

“One woman officer was swearing at me, telling me to ‘get down you big F-ing retard.’

“I was born with arythmia and I was very afraid they would Taser me, so I laid down on the ground.”

Come on even if he had shot these pests, do you think he deserved to be treated in this manner????????

I hope someone pays right through the nose on this one.
This was not fair and was not right to put this family through.

Jamie



Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Sh...#ixzz1KlKaM7Jg

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ok, this is the part I hate


"About nine months after he moved the horse, Nixon was at the home on Mountain Aire property when he got a call from Anderson telling him he had just been arrested for “killing a cow.”

Nixon opened his front door and his home was surrounded by 10 RCMP officers from three different detachments, some with their guns drawn and some of whom he once considered close friends.

“One woman officer was swearing at me, telling me to ‘get down you big F-ing retard.’

“I was born with arythmia and I was very afraid they would Taser me, so I laid down on the ground.”

Come on even if he had shot these pests, do you think he deserved to be treated in this manner????????

I hope someone pays right through the nose on this one.
This was not fair and was not right to put this family through.

Jamie



Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Sh...#ixzz1KlKaM7Jg

Guilty until proven innocent, in today's court of law.

[remmy300]

To start off grew up in Sundre...I have grew up hunting and guiding in the west country. The horse population has grown leeps and bounds. A lot of the area has been logged opening up new grazing areas for the horses that they never used to frequent. Areas that had heavy timber where the elk go and hide out / bed. The horses not only compete with wildlife for feed, they actually chase the elk out of the country. I have seen it a few times in person and also watched a documetary filmed in the states where stud horses would run the elk for miles.

I have stopped hunting elk west of Sundre due to the declining numbers of elk and the growing number of hunters. The elk population is not a direct result of the horses, but a combination of the logging, oil and gas and the wolves. The areas east of Sundre, in the farmland have healthy numbers of elk, where 20 years ago there were no elk..i never seen a elk on our farm growing up....now they pass through quite often.

Someone mentioned the numbers of elk in the ranch and clearwater declining and there are little to no wild horses in those areas....ther used to be 1000's of elk on the ranch..some migrating back to the park every year while others resided in the ranch area. The large migrations have stopped, or at least slowed down drastically. Predators, trapping elk, removing lead cows that have mirated back and forth...i believe those are a few reasons for the drastic population changes.

To get back to the horses, zones like 318, 417, 418, areas i have hunted...those areas need to have some type of control of the horses. Its nothing to go for a drive and see a hundred in a day...no one is trapping the horses like they used to...other than wolves and the odd grizzly taking down horses, what controls the population. I have seen a lot of dead horses over the years, most probably shot...though i feel like its good someone got rid of a few, it still is not the way to go about controlling the horse population.

There is a wide spectrum of things that have taken place over the past 20 years leading to the decline in wildlife west of Sundre. Forestry, oil and gas, quads, predators, horses and just overall human traffic have all led to the decline in wildlife. I dont believe it will ever be like it once was. F&W need to get there heads out of you no where and start to slowly put a plan in place in order to save the west country..how I dont know, but something has to be done.

Sorry, I got a little off the horse topic...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by remmy300

F&W need to get there heads out of you no where and start to slowly put a plan in place in order to save the west country..how I dont know, but something has to be done.

Sorry, I got a little off the horse topic...

These feral horses are being "managed" by SRD LANDS, not F&W.

In recent discussions with SRD Lands, I have some hope that they will be allowed to resume controlling the feral horse population. Public opposition is what shut down the trapping permits. Public uproar over WHOAS, RCMP and the Provincial Crown Prosector's actions throughout the injustice may turn the tables around.

[remmy300]

Sorry walking Buffalo, you are correct. I just through a government body out there.

[AbAngler]

Yukon sure called this one!!

I can only hope the innocent parties can somehow be compensated.

[Thorobreeder]

I was skeptical of Nixon's guilt right from the start...it just didn't make sense from any angle, based on what the prosecution was bringing forward anyways. I hope whomever was pushing for this malicious prosectution is held responsible. I know that the prosecutor is known for getting wayyy personal and out of hand, so it goes further than just RCMP or some local bleeding hearts...but this is unacceptable and I find it sad that the public outcry for him and his family is so small compared to that for the dead mare.

I personally love the wild horses in the area, and find it hard to swallow that the US can sustain 20-30,000 of them while we can't handle 200-300?
Take a look at the hundreds of dogs dropped off at reserves over the last three decades and allowed to breed indescriminately. Notice how they don't all look the same? There are definate shepherds, huskies, spaniels, heelers, etc
The wild horses have a "breed type"....they're a uniform size and a narrow range of colours. They have a certain shape of head, ears, tail set, etc and this didn't just occur over the last several generations. They are as easily identified as the Arabian, the Morgan, or the Shetland Pony.
While there is the odd grey or pinto, consider that the Thoroughbred also has occasional palominos, pintos, and whites even though they are commonly bay, black or chestnut.

I have yet to see starving deer, elk, moose or anything else living among them...or even a grassy area that's been grazed down to nothing leaving no hope for any other species' survival. I'd love to see footage or photos of either occurance, shouldn't be too hard considering how devastating these horses are to their surrounding habitat and other wildlife

Originally Posted by Thorobreeder

I personally love the wild horses in the area, and find it hard to swallow that the US can sustain 20-30,000 of them while we can't handle 200-300?
:

If that's all we had you could be right.....sadly that's not the case.

[hawks]

horses drive the elk out!! winter together, load in my pants. I can prove this any time you want!!!

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by Thorobreeder

I was skeptical of Nixon's guilt right from the start...it just didn't make sense from any angle, based on what the prosecution was bringing forward anyways. I hope whomever was pushing for this malicious prosectution is held responsible. I know that the prosecutor is known for getting wayyy personal and out of hand, so it goes further than just RCMP or some local bleeding hearts...but this is unacceptable and I find it sad that the public outcry for him and his family is so small compared to that for the dead mare.

I personally love the wild horses in the area, and find it hard to swallow that the US can sustain 20-30,000 of them while we can't handle 200-300?
Take a look at the hundreds of dogs dropped off at reserves over the last three decades and allowed to breed indescriminately. Notice how they don't all look the same? There are definate shepherds, huskies, spaniels, heelers, etc
The wild horses have a "breed type"....they're a uniform size and a narrow range of colours. They have a certain shape of head, ears, tail set, etc and this didn't just occur over the last several generations. They are as easily identified as the Arabian, the Morgan, or the Shetland Pony.
While there is the odd grey or pinto, consider that the Thoroughbred also has occasional palominos, pintos, and whites even though they are commonly bay, black or chestnut.

I have yet to see starving deer, elk, moose or anything else living among them...or even a grassy area that's been grazed down to nothing leaving no hope for any other species' survival. I'd love to see footage or photos of either occurance, shouldn't be too hard considering how devastating these horses are to their surrounding habitat and other wildlife

Go take a walk around quark creek sometime, its feral horses, and dirt, they chew the grass to the ground everywhere. We need a managment plan for feral horses.

[Thorobreeder]

Originally Posted by nick0danger

Go take a walk around quark creek sometime, its feral horses, and dirt, they chew the grass to the ground everywhere. We need a managment plan for feral horses.

I don't know what they would be sticking around the area for if its just dirt
Even domestic horses will jump fences to graze if kept on a dry lot. I have always been able to find them in a certain type of area with a certain terrain...and other than the poop and hoofprints its hard to tell where they've been.

The torn up areas left by the ATVs, OHVs, and garbage from the bad eggs among random campers however is hard to ignore. Lets start trapping them instead. They are interfering with the grazing of the elk and deer, and tearing up the river beds which certainly isn't doing the fish any favors.

They need to be managed, and in order for this to happen they need to be acknowledged. If the powers that be recognized the horses as a wild species (and it is easy to discern a wild mustang horse from an abandoned Arabian, Quarter Horse or Thoroughbred) then they could begin managing them...its been done in Bronson Forest in Sask, and Sable Island in the Maritimes, and it certainly can be done here.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Thorobreeder

They need to be managed, and in order for this to happen they need to be acknowledged. If the powers that be recognized the horses as a wild species (and it is easy to discern a wild mustang horse from an abandoned Arabian, Quarter Horse or Thoroughbred) then they could begin managing them...its been done in Bronson Forest in Sask, and Sable Island in the Maritimes, and it certainly can be done here.

They are "acknowledged". They are Feral Horses. There are legislated management protocols in place.




Thorobreeder is showing his/her true intent, to have Feral horses recognized as a Wild species.

I've posted before how anti-hunting and preservationist groups are attempting to have the Endangered Species Act changed so that Feral horses may meet prerequisites to be classified as a Wild species, and thus eligable for "protection" as an Endangered species. Part and parcel of the intent is to create more parks, eliminating motorized access, industrial activity, and closing more areas to all hunting.





So Thorobreeder, how do we cull the Feral Horses that are not "Wild Mustangs"?
We sure can't have these different "Species" interbreeding.



For the sake of the "Wild Mustang" species, I suggest that we round every last free ranging horse, DNA test every one, and cull every horse that has ANY Arabian, Quarter, or Thoroubred gentics. Only Pure "Wild Mustangs" may be released back to the range.

Of course this will have to be done annually to make sure no Feral horses have infiltrated the "Wild Mustang" population. Just like Elk and Deer, It is completely unacceptable to even consider allowing escaped domestic stock to interbreed with "Wild" animals.

I do find it interesting that the only arguement that wild horse proponents seem to be able to come up with is that two wrongs make it right. Sorry but they don't.

I'm with walkingbuffalo!

[Mhunter51]

Thorobreeder -- how are the ferrel horses being managed, and they ARE ferrel not WILD. I have seen these nags many times and there is everything from heavy draft looking horses to kids pony looking horses. All Sask did to manage them was to cave in to a bunch of the local horse a** kissers and impliment a law that says the horses in the Bronson forest were protected because some were being caught and sold at auction. The locals up there took up a collection for the cause, bought some at auction and took them back and released them. I don't know what part of " wild horses died out millenia ago " some don't understand. Its part of history. I agree with the previuos poster that ALL should be captured and DNA tested. My bets would be all come from spanish or heavy horse cross lineage that were turned loose or escaped. Next thing we are going to hear is there is some rare passenger pigeon blood in our farmyard run of the mill dirty old pigeons.

[MountainTi]

I find it interesting that the biggest proponents for the extermination of wild horses have yet to provide any factual proof that the horses are indeed negatively affecting the ecosystem including our populations of big game. Much of the opinion on both sides of the fence seems to be purely based on emotions. If indeed it was proven the horses are creating damage that is causing a reduction in numbers of ungulates, I'm sure many on the one side of the fence would be more agreeable to some control on the horse population.

[Mhunter51]

I just did a google check on' wild horses in bronson forest ' and one of the searches that came up was about the eradication of ferrel horses on the Suffield range. Talks about the massive damage they did to water ways and grass. The damage is the reason given for their removal.

[Thorobreeder]

(Quoting Walking Buffalo)
They are "acknowledged". They are feral Horses. There are legislated management protocols in place.


I am referring to them being acknowledged as Wild or "Native Fauna" and not stray pets or livestock.


Thorobreeder is showing his/her true intent, to have Feral horses recognized as a Wild species. I've posted before how anti-hunting and preservationist groups are attempting to have the Endangered Species Act changed so that Feral horses may meet prerequisites to be classified as a Wild species, and thus eligable for "protection" as an Endangered species. Part and parcel of the intent is to create more parks, eliminating motorized access, industrial activity, and closing more areas to all hunting.



Yes recognize them as a wild species...but don't assume that I am trying to stop anyone from hunting, camping, etc. Elk, deer, fish, sheep, even swans, etc are also recognized but are still harvested, trapped and hunted as prescribed. I don't really care if someone enjoys themselves and hunts out there, as long as they respect the wildlife and leave it they way they found it without poaching, harassing or making a big mess...the horses should enjoy the same consideration that the elk, moose, white tail, and bull trout are given.


So Thorobreeder, how do we cull the Feral Horses that are not "Wild Mustangs"?
We sure can't have these different "Species" interbreeding.

Yes, please. The same way stray dogs and cats are picked up. Trust me, a dropped off or escaped horse can be picked out.


For the sake of the "Wild Mustang" species, I suggest that we round every last free ranging horse, DNA test every one, and cull every horse that has ANY Arabian, Quarter, or Thoroubred gentics. Only Pure "Wild Mustangs" may be released back to the range.

Fair Enough. Any Thoroughbred caught running wild in the mountains shall remain caught. haha anyone with Thoroughbreds knows why this is humorous. My Tbs can't even survive a summer without grain or 4 weeks without a hoof trim. A Quarter Horse can be DNA tested pretty easy. And an Arab would be easy enough to pick out from the herd too.

Of course this will have to be done annually to make sure no Feral horses have infiltrated the "Wild Mustang" population. Just like Elk and Deer, It is completely unacceptable to even consider allowing escaped domestic stock to interbreed with "Wild" animals.

If they were treated as Wild/"Native" fauna then I suppose there would be a lot more attention paid...and just like I don't want to see anyones dumped cows or donkeys or dogs, I don't want to see someones unwanted or lame horse left to suffer and try to fit into and keep up with a herd of mustangs.

Again, I'm not really coming into this thread on a HUNTING FORUM saying that they need to be put on any crazy "don't hurt their feelings" lists....but if they could be approached with the same respect as the other wildlife, I think a solution can be found somewhere between overpopulation and exinction.
And by the way, many of the Suffield horses WERE tested and found to have very, very little spanish DNA and type, not surprising since they were of a larger, heavier cold-blooded (draft--think percheron, belgian, etc) type and not the Spanish Mustang Type as described here http://members.shaw.ca/save-wild-hor...nfo3.html#topm

Someone mentioned more information or research about what exactly a mustang is, and where they came from....I know the url sounds like its going to be a sappy wild pony lovefest, but it was actually prepared as an genuine investigative research item, with full literature and sources cited provided....
http://members.shaw.ca/save-wild-hor....%20Alison.htm

[st99]

Now there's some in wmu 356. I saw 4 about 10 km north of nose creek, probably release by the natives that live there. I parked the truck 10 feet from them, pulled down the window and talked to them. They didn't care, it looks like they've been close to human most of there life. What's gonna be next ? Maybe some tigers ?

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by st99

Now there's some in wmu 356. I saw 4 about 10 km north of nose creek, probably release by the natives that live there. I parked the truck 10 feet from them, pulled down the window and talked to them. They didn't care, it looks like they've been close to human most of there life. What's gonna be next ? Maybe some tigers ?

You mean from Guzoo?

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I do find it interesting that the only arguement that wild horse proponents seem to be able to come up with is that two wrongs make it right. Sorry but they don't.

I'm with walkingbuffalo!

x2 get rid of them.the west country should not end up as a giant pasture for unwanted domestic stock.

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I find it interesting that the biggest proponents for the extermination of wild horses have yet to provide any factual proof that the horses are indeed negatively affecting the ecosystem including our populations of big game. .

Factual proof other than they compete directly with our native wildlife for food, space and thermal cover you mean?