Do you need premium bullets/ammo for hunting?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

no argument Keg...just had/witnessed bad results on with the impact velocities on bone in this calibre so changed to 140 gr barnes x back in the day....now I know a fella who insists on punching shoulders out on all game animals he shoots and he too using high velocity rounds experienced the same explosive type impacts minimizing penetration using cup/core so went to the so called premium bullets as indicated by some in this thread...but to each there own as we all have personal preferences and I respect that.

Aiming for bone is a risky shot with any bullet.

It's not like you can see internal structures. You have a much smaller kill zone if you are trying to break them down by hitting bone, then you do if trying to take out a major blood vessel near the heart, or take out the lungs.

Yeah there are exceptions where you have a much larger kill zone, such as a quartering on shot. But then a C&C can do the job if you aim to miss the bone, and pull it off. I would not recommend it though because like I say you can't see internal structures and it's too easy to hit bone on such a shot.

One big problem with hitting bone, it can deflect a projectile in unpredictable ways, leading to no vital structures being hit.

As you say, you've witnessed bad results with this shot. Probably more then a few times.

But lets say it's a viable option, it's still not a must have because one always has the option to pass on a shot or wait for broadside into the boiler room chance.

Unless of course we are talking taking down an animal that was hit poorly in which case aim is the bigger issue. Get that right and you don't need a follow up shot under difficult circumstances.

Once again, if you want to use premium, no reason you shouldn't.
But they are no more insurance then sufficient range practice.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Aiming for bone is a risky shot with any bullet.

It's not like you can see internal structures. You have a much smaller kill zone if you are trying to break them down by hitting bone, then you do if trying to take out a major blood vessel near the heart, or take out the lungs.

Yeah there are exceptions where you have a much larger kill zone, such as a quartering on shot. But then a C&C can do the job if you aim to miss the bone, and pull it off. I would not recommend it though because like I say you can't see internal structures and it's too easy to hit bone on such a shot.

One big problem with hitting bone, it can deflect a projectile in unpredictable ways, leading to no vital structures being hit.

As you say, you've witnessed bad results with this shot. Probably more then a few times.

But lets say it's a viable option, it's still not a must have because one always has the option to pass on a shot or wait for broadside into the boiler room chance.

Unless of course we are talking taking down an animal that was hit poorly in which case aim is the bigger issue. Get that right and you don't need a follow up shot under difficult circumstances.

Once again, if you want to use premium, no reason you shouldn't.
But they are no more insurance then sufficient range practice.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

You say it so much better than me!!!!

[Brbpuppy]

Originally Posted by muirsy

My hunting is <200 yards 99.9% of the time, so my federal blue box 270’s always get the call. Never had anything go more than 50 yards.

My hunting partner shoots much further than me, making bullet & load more of a factor IMO. As a non-long range guy that’s at least what it seems to me.

My gun groups better with the blue box than with the Federal Premium anyway lol...

[huntwat]

I’m actually very open minded on this subject. I try to shoot the same cartridge as most of my hunting buddies. Then, I just shoot whatever they bring.

[bdub]

Hitting bone with a bullet designed to hold together, like a Partition, is a completely different ball of wax than hitting them with a frangible bullet. Like comparing getting hit in the head with water balloon or a hardball of equal weight and equal speed. One splatters, one is going to leave a dent. Aiming for shoulder bone with a controlled expansion bullet is often the best and least risky shot to take. Not only are you blowing chunks of bone as well as the bullet through the lung/heart area, you are limiting the mobility of the animal by breaking the shoulder.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by bdub

Hitting bone with a bullet designed to hold together, like a Partition, is a completely different ball of wax than hitting them with a frangible bullet. Like comparing getting hit in the head with water balloon or a hardball of equal weight and equal speed. One splatters, one is going to leave a dent. Aiming for shoulder bone with a controlled expansion bullet is often the best and least risky shot to take. Not only are you blowing chunks of bone as well as the bullet through the lung/heart area, you are limiting the mobility of the animal by breaking the shoulder.

I'm always a little miffed at myself when I get a little forward. There isn't much to eat on the ribs but when I ruin a bunch of shoulder meat

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by bdub

Hitting bone with a bullet designed to hold together, like a Partition, is a completely different ball of wax than hitting them with a frangible bullet. Like comparing getting hit in the head with water balloon or a hardball of equal weight and equal speed. One splatters, one is going to leave a dent. Aiming for shoulder bone with a controlled expansion bullet is often the best and least risky shot to take. Not only are you blowing chunks of bone as well as the bullet through the lung/heart area, you are limiting the mobility of the animal by breaking the shoulder.

Controlled expansion bullets are as subject to deflection as any other bullet.

Last I heard there weren't a lot of people hunting with water balloons.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Controlled expansion bullets are as subject to deflection as any other bullet.

Last I heard there weren't a lot of people hunting with water balloons.

So again I will ask. Have you ever shot an animal with a monometal or bonded bullet?

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Aiming for bone is a risky shot with any bullet.

It's not like you can see internal structures. You have a much smaller kill zone if you are trying to break them down by hitting bone, then you do if trying to take out a major blood vessel near the heart, or take out the lungs.

Yeah there are exceptions where you have a much larger kill zone, such as a quartering on shot. But then a C&C can do the job if you aim to miss the bone, and pull it off. I would not recommend it though because like I say you can't see internal structures and it's too easy to hit bone on such a shot.

One big problem with hitting bone, it can deflect a projectile in unpredictable ways, leading to no vital structures being hit.

As you say, you've witnessed bad results with this shot. Probably more then a few times.

But lets say it's a viable option, it's still not a must have because one always has the option to pass on a shot or wait for broadside into the boiler room chance.

Unless of course we are talking taking down an animal that was hit poorly in which case aim is the bigger issue. Get that right and you don't need a follow up shot under difficult circumstances.

Once again, if you want to use premium, no reason you shouldn't.
But they are no more insurance then sufficient range practice.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

This brings an interesting point. I believe most people fixate on the best bullet for the job instead of practicing with their rifles. If you go to your local range prior to hunting season you will get to witness people shooting 10 inch groups at 100 yards from a bench. If they worked on technique more than the research on the projectile being sent, they would likely have better success.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Controlled expansion bullets are as subject to deflection as any other bullet.

Last I heard there weren't a lot of people hunting with water balloons.

Controlled expansion bullets are less prone to blowing up on heavy bone and not reaching the vitals. A partition or similar bullet that hits the shoulder on the way to the heart/lungs is not going to deflect anywhere other than where it was meant to go, into the heart/lungs.

[bdub]

Pair people that don’t bother becoming proficient with their rifle as well as shooting the cheapest crap bullets they can find and you get the inevitable results.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by bdub

Pair people that don’t bother becoming proficient with their rifle as well as shooting the cheapest crap bullets they can find and you get the inevitable results.

Premium bullets so not make up for lack of proficiency.

[marky_mark]

It should be pretty obvious that a premium bullet won’t make up for poor shooting skills or an inaccurate rifle

But they do give you confidence that your bullet will perform in less than ideal situations. Or when a nasty follow up shot is required.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

This brings an interesting point. I believe most people fixate on the best bullet for the job instead of practicing with their rifles. If you go to your local range prior to hunting season you will get to witness people shooting 10 inch groups at 100 yards from a bench. If they worked on technique more than the research on the projectile being sent, they would likely have better success.

I believe that is right.

Being a guide I got to work with many hunters in the field. Most would fire a few shots once in camp to check zero but often admitted they hadn't shot their rifle in months.

One of the most impressive shots I witnessed was made by a old fellow who hadn't touched a rifle in years, and he didn't shoot any test rounds in camp.
But he knocked down a Moose at a measured 350 yards with a Savage 99 chambered in .300 savage, with one shot using a C&C bullet.

He had one thing in his favor, he had been trained as a sniper by the US army.

A good many hunters learn to shoot by trial and error and with not a lot of practice.

Fewer still get expert guidance.

The guys that put a couple hundred rounds or more into paper each year, are the exception, not the rule.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

It should be pretty obvious that a premium bullet won’t make up for poor shooting skills or an inaccurate rifle

But they do give you confidence that your bullet will perform in less than ideal situations. Or when a nasty follow up shot is required.

Agreed.


That makes premium ammo a good idea, not a must have.

The must have is shooting skill. Which can't be bought.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by bdub

A partition or similar bullet that hits the shoulder on the way to the heart/lungs is not going to deflect anywhere other than where it was meant to go, into the heart/lungs.

Why say that, you know it's not true.

That's like saying a premium bullet will not deflect off a branch.

Deflection is a function of angle of point of impact.

Yeah if you hit dead center, or close to it, your bullet, any bullet will punch through and continue in a more or less straight line.

But hit half way between center and edge of any hard round object and any bullet, even a premium bullet, will deflect.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by bdub

Controlled expansion bullets are less prone to blowing up on heavy bone and not reaching the vitals. A partition or similar bullet that hits the shoulder on the way to the heart/lungs is not going to deflect anywhere other than where it was meant to go, into the heart/lungs.

Less prone to blowing up yes, but not less prone to deflection.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Why say that, you know it's not true.

That's like saying a premium bullet will not deflect off a branch.

Deflection is a function of angle of point of impact.

Yeah if you hit dead center, or close to it, your bullet, any bullet will punch through and continue in a more or less straight line.

But hit half way between center and edge of any hard round object and any bullet, even a premium bullet, will deflect.

A premium bullet will retain more mass and not be deflected as easily
It also has a smaller diameter and will be more inclined to travel in a straight line

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

A premium bullet will retain more mass and not be deflected as easily
It also has a smaller diameter and will be more inclined to travel in a straight line

That's a jump from won't deflect, but it still adds up to probability it will deflect at least some, if not dead center or close to it.

To be fair, in most cases I have encountered, it would still kill the animal quickly but so too would a C&C through the lungs.

The reason I wouldn't take that shot is because it will almost certainly cause extensive muscle damage in the upper leg.

But to each his own. If that's the shot you like I don't see any reason why you shouldn't take it. And so for you a premium bullet may amount to a must have. But only because of your shot choice.

I prefer a broadside through the lungs so a cup and core bullet is sufficient for my purpose. Hence not a must have for me.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

This brings an interesting point. I believe most people fixate on the best bullet for the job instead of practicing with their rifles. If you go to your local range prior to hunting season you will get to witness people shooting 10 inch groups at 100 yards from a bench. If they worked on technique more than the research on the projectile being sent, they would likely have better success.

That's all part of the equation to a successful shot placement but throw in excitement etc as in field conditions and now you got a complete different scenario playing out....seen many great/good shooters of the bench, mimicking field like situations etc and when it was go time completely loose it and miss or put the bullet in a not so good area on the critter.....since the thread it about premium bullets....as many have said....no you don't need it but it is better to have it then not when push comes to shove.....but to each their own....

Oh and I have buddies or people I know that have guided for well over 30 years etc and they say the biggest thing that they experience is over gunned,outta shape and lack basic rifle skills but sure can put down the growlies and tell long winded stories....these guides I know have many spare rifles that they insist thier clients use and they ensure they don't expose them to conditions that will kill them....they read thier clients like a atlas road map and after range time they see what needs to be done to have a successful hunt......oh and thier rifles/cartridges run premium bullets too....just to throw in another part of the equation to a successful hunt....

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

A premium bullet will retain more mass and not be deflected as easily
It also has a smaller diameter and will be more inclined to travel in a straight line

I always thought it was mass and motion that enhanced penetration and also lessened the possibility of deflection.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

A premium bullet will retain more mass and not be deflected as easily
It also has a smaller diameter and will be more inclined to travel in a straight line

Not to get one going , but I always thought it was mass and motion (momentum) that enhanced penetration and also lessened the amount of deflection. More mass equals larger diameter or more length, given the same bullet construction

[338Bluff]

It's pretty much already been said. A Hornady InterLock or Speer HotCor is a Premium bullet when correctly matched to cartridge.

If I'm really concerned I will use a partition.

I tried copper. After a reasonable sample of results I've drifted back to what I'm comfortable with. If the day comes when the powers that be ban lead I know I can use monoliths but for now I think I will stick with traditional bullets.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

It's pretty much already been said. A Hornady InterLock or Speer HotCor is a Premium bullet when correctly matched to cartridge.

If I'm really concerned I will use a partition.

I tried copper. After a reasonable sample of results I've drifted back to what I'm comfortable with. If the day comes when the powers that be ban lead I know I can use monoliths but for now I think I will stick with traditional bullets.

I totally agree . The "premium" moniker seems to applied more to the monos than to C & C these days, There are lots of good bullets around. Whatever does the job consistently can be called a premium as I see it,

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

So again I will ask. Have you ever shot an animal with a monometal or bonded bullet?

Keg...just want your field version as per sns2 question....thx.

[Demonical]

No

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Keg...just want your field version as per sns2 question....thx.

I still haven't figured out the point of sns2 question. Does he believe the old axiom "Once you go ........ you'll never go back."?

My answer is yes and yes - to both bullet types. My answer to the OP question is NO!

The OP question could just as easily have been "Do you need a magnum cartridge to hunt big game?" and the discussion would have played out the same with "Just In Case" at the top of the list and "crap cartridge" thrown in for good measure.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I still haven't figured out the point of sns2 question. Does he believe the old axiom "Once you go ........ you'll never go back."?

My answer is yes and yes - to both bullet types. My answer to the OP question is NO!

The OP question could just as easily have been "Do you need a magnum cartridge to hunt big game?" and the discussion would have played out the same with "Just In Case" at the top of the list.

Keg has guided for many moons and just want to know if he has experienced how these bullets performed in the field is all.....your right though the thread kinda spun off a bit but made for great conversation...like sitting around a fire sharing perspectives after a long day in the Feld.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I still haven't figured out the point of sns2 question. Does he believe the old axiom "Once you go ........ you'll never go back."?

My answer is yes and yes - to both bullet types. My answer to the OP question is NO!

The OP question could just as easily have been "Do you need a magnum cartridge to hunt big game?" and the discussion would have played out the same with "Just In Case" at the top of the list and "crap cartridge" thrown in for good measure.

My point is how can you discuss the merits, advantages, disadvantages or whatever else you can think up concerning premium bullets if you have not used them yourself.

The OP asked an honest question. He deserves an honest and informed answer. How can he get that informed answer from someone a person who has never used the product?

I am not going to take advice on a holiday from a travel agent who has never been to the destination. It has nothing to do with personalities or liking a person. It has everything to do with informed advice. If you have never used a product then you simply cannot give informed advice.

Everyone knows cup and core bullets work. They have for centuries and still do. Always will. But if you read the OP's question in its entirety, rather than just the title, you will see that he asks for advantages and whether they are worth the extra money.

Clearly we agree that a monometal or bonded bullet offers better bone-breaking penetration which allows the hunter to take a shot he would not/should not feel comfortable with a cup and core.

We don't choose what shots are presented to us. That is up to the animal. Most of us on this thread want to be ready for all scenarios, and equipped with a projectile that will allow us a reasonable expectation of harvesting said animal if that animal only presents us with a marginal shot. Add to this, that most people have limited time and opportunity to hunt, and so why not spend that extra $30 on a box of ammo?

[Demonical]

Over analyze