Is Hunting with a Crossbow, really bowhunting?

[graybeard]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster

Certainly as much as "primitive" weapons are primitive.....

X 2........
Your shooting range and hunting skills all apply in getting yourself to 40 yards from the animal.

For compound bow shooters do you really think a 80% let off is primitive? If all bow hunters used long bows, then maybe there is an argument that a cross bow is not primitive, but until then.

Another regulation question; a black powder rig that shoots 2" groups at 250 meters is allowed but a shotgun isn't....hmmmm???

IMHO.....

[Unregistered user]

To be fair, crossbows predate compound bows by 500 years. Why are they not considered bows? The same kind of mindset that pervades all hunters and anglers, "My way or the hiway" "I'm right so you must be wrong". Some gun owning idiots feel certain types of guns should be banned as long as they can keep their bolt gun. The slime who slowly strip away our rights feed on us because it is bloody easy.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I think the traditional shooters didn't realise what they were unleashing when they allowed compounds. In the beginning compounds weren't much of an advantage over recurves but slowly the technology advanced and we have what we see now. We see bows that are almost 300% faster than trad bows, we see let offs that were unimaginable 30 years ago, we also see accuracy out to 60 yards and beyond.

What's the result of this advanced technology? Greater success rates, undeniable fact and the reason that moose are all on draw and why mulies are going on draw. I've got nothing against the guys who like and shoot compounds but they've certainly changed the face of bow hunting.

I didn't realize traditional bow hunters allowed me to hunt using a compound. Thx for that.

How have compound bow hunters changed the face of bow hunting? Can't you just pick the bow type of your choice? Traditional, compound or xbow.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

I didn't realize traditional bow hunters allowed me to hunt using a compound. Thx for that.

How have compound bow hunters changed the face of bow hunting? Can't you just pick the bow type of your choice? Traditional, compound or xbow.

I believe the argument is that a crossbow is a rifle with a string on it thus it belongs in the rifle season.

To be fair, the proponents of keeping crossbows out of the archery season don't argue that. They argue instead that a crossbow is not a bow.
And when that argument falls flat they regroup under the argument that crossbows are vastly superior and thus are an unfair advantage.

They try to bolster these arguments with claims that compound bows are responsible for the depletion of our wildlife populations or that bow seasons are about primitive weapons when if fact the separate season was about safety.
Meanwhile they conveniently forget that black powder rifles and compound bows, both classified as primitive weapons, were invented very recently while crossbows have been around for hundreds of years. They were in use long before gunpowder was invented for that matter.

I know I should be smart enough to not argue with them. I know their arguments are nonsense and they will never admit that. But it's hard to sit idly by and watch as more and more people fall for such ridiculous arguments.

That's what we did when the anti trapping goofs were making their ridiculous arguments and look where that got us.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I believe the argument is that a crossbow is a rifle with a string on it thus it belongs in the rifle season.

To be fair, the proponents of keeping crossbows out of the archery season don't argue that. They argue instead that a crossbow is not a bow.
And when that argument falls flat they regroup under the argument that crossbows are vastly superior and thus are an unfair advantage.

They try to bolster these arguments with claims that compound bows are responsible for the depletion of our wildlife populations or that bow seasons are about primitive weapons when if fact the separate season was about safety.
Meanwhile they conveniently forget that black powder rifles and compound bows, both classified as primitive weapons, were invented very recently while crossbows have been around for hundreds of years. They were in use long before gunpowder was invented for that matter.

I know I should be smart enough to not argue with them. I know their arguments are nonsense and they will never admit that. But it's hard to sit idly by and watch as more and more people fall for such ridiculous arguments.

That's what we did when the anti trapping goofs were making their ridiculous arguments and look where that got us.

Not really. Yes, I call them string guns. same as I call spear guns, spear guns. You don't like it, I'm not going to change. They are not vastly superior, they do offer a distinct advantage over both bows and game animals. They also require a lot less practice and skill to use effectively at similar ranges.

Yes, the separation of the seasons was for safety. However, it is now also a management issue, if you want to split the tags 50/50 then I'd be happy to have any non-firearm tool used. But you can't say "bow hunters only get 15% and we're going to quadruple the number of hunters by allowing crossbows" ...that is straight up greed on your part.

No, hunting crossbows do not predate compounds. They are a recent invention by manufactures to sell stuff. Same as modern inline Muzzleloaders . Crossbows were a weapon of war that was largely extinct, aside from some exhibition type models.

I almost said it earlier, and I will say it now since you brought it up. It's somewhat ironic that a trapper, who should understand mechanical advantage very well, defends crossbows as an equivalent to compound bows. You have seen enough animals to know that point and click is a lot easier than draw, aim and release.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

I'm glad the retard who started this thread in 2014 is banned.

And I'm glad they banned his mom too for re-opening it.

http://youtu.be/OP1a1oCRTa8

[Talking moose]

To me, effective range would dictate the categories each weapon falls under more than any other factor.
1. Bows, projectiles at 300 fps with 50 yds being near maximum range.
2. Rifles, projectiles at 3000 fps with 500 yds being near maximum range.
3. Now to me, this clearly puts crossbows in league closer to a compound bow.
Yes there are other(smaller) factors, but having to be 10x closer to be effective as a rifle speaks volumes. Crossbows have that in common with a compound. And that's pretty big.

[Unregistered user]

Crossbows became obsolete as a weapon of war when the English Longbowmen slaughtered their crossbow wielding enemies at Crecy and Agincourt because the longbows had far superior range and battlefield accuracy than the x bows. The long bow was the WMD of its time and held sway until gunpowder made its way onto the battlefield. Even during the time of the American revolutionary war, the idea of using the longbow against the English was debated as the rate of fire surpassed the musket but was declined because it takes too long to train and maintain a good archer. Crossbows are just bows.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Not really. Yes, I call them string guns. same as I call spear guns, spear guns. You don't like it, I'm not going to change. They are not vastly superior, they do offer a distinct advantage over both bows and game animals. They also require a lot less practice and skill to use effectively at similar ranges.

Yes, the separation of the seasons was for safety. However, it is now also a management issue, if you want to split the tags 50/50 then I'd be happy to have any non-firearm tool used. But you can't say "bow hunters only get 15% and we're going to quadruple the number of hunters by allowing crossbows" ...that is straight up greed on your part.

No, hunting crossbows do not predate compounds. They are a recent invention by manufactures to sell stuff. Same as modern inline Muzzleloaders . Crossbows were a weapon of war that was largely extinct, aside from some exhibition type models.

I almost said it earlier, and I will say it now since you brought it up. It's somewhat ironic that a trapper, who should understand mechanical advantage very well, defends crossbows as an equivalent to compound bows. You have seen enough animals to know that point and click is a lot easier than draw, aim and release.

I fully agree if cross bows were allowed in the archery season the 15% allocation would have to be adjusted acordingly. Wouldn't be hard to adjust the allocation.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by 3blade

I almost said it earlier, and I will say it now since you brought it up. It's somewhat ironic that a trapper, who should understand mechanical advantage very well, defends crossbows as an equivalent to compound bows. You have seen enough animals to know that point and click is a lot easier than draw, aim and release.

It is precisely because I understand mechanical advantage that I don't buy the arguments against crossbows.

But I understand much more then just mechanical advantage. I also understand that your argument that crossbows were first developed for military use does not fly either.

Although it's true, the same could be said for modern long bows, and rifles.
Even compound bows, the most recent hunting weapon, has evolved far beyond it's original capabilities but you're not arguing against them are you.

Fact is, early hunting bows were much shorter then the long bows developed for war. And like crossbows and rifles, they were later adopted for hunting, and then modified to improve their hunting performance.

Although a very few still hunt with truly traditional long bows, and arrows, the majority hunt with bows and arrows that only resemble their ancient predecessors.

We could split hairs but we both know that modern archery equipment has considerable advantages over truly traditional equipment. That's why people use it.
The improvements in crossbow technology may be greater but it's only a matter of percentages not a quantum leap.

I said it before, ease of use had no part in the decision to have a separate season. If you want to make it about mechanical advantages, be my quest.
You could well regret that decision.

Like I said, how would you like one season for short bows, one for long bows, one for low draw weight compound bows and one for high draw weight compound bows.

If you get your way, you open the door for others to get theirs.

Be careful what you wish for. You might fool some of the people some of the time, but you'll never fool the majority, ever.

[KegRiver]

I believe I understand now why some people voted NDP.

You can't have your cake and eat it too folks. Everything has a price.

The number of tags won't change because you agreed with allowing crossbows and it won't change because you argued against them either.

Hunter success won't change either. A good hunter is good with whatever weapon he or she chooses to use and a poor hunter won't get any more game with a crossbow then he or she would with a rifle.

What will change may well be what you want least to change, the length of your season.

Think about it, more archery hunters have a greater voice and call for a higher percentage of tags, a lower number of archery hunters have less of a voice and require less tags and less days in the field.

United you stand, divided you fall.

[Mulehahn]

.

[dmcbride]

MYTH: Crossbows are a poacher’s tool.
FACT: Crossbows, like vertical bows, have short range capabilities, are too cumbersome to discharge from a vehicle, and kill by hemorrhage, not shock. Where legal, violations are minimal. If crossbows were efficient poaching tools their use would be wide-spread by game thieves. The poachers weapon of choice is still the .22 caliber rifle.
MYTH: Crossbows are unsafe.
FACT: Based on thirty years of statistical data, accident rates involving crossbows are identical to those of vertical bows. Both, considering hunting hours involved and numbers of hunters, are considered among the safest forms of hunting.
MYTH: Crossbows are too easy to shoot.
FACT: Experienced rifle shooters can expect to quickly achieve tight arrow groups on targets up to forty yards (the effective hunting range of a crossbow). Is that bad? Isn’t accurate shot placement the goal of all ethical hunting? Does the difficulty of shooting a bow accurately deter people from participating in bowhunting? However, to be successful, a crossbow hunter must master all skills and tactics common to bowhunting.
MYTH: Crossbow hunting will squeeze other hunters out.
FACT: In states where lengthy crossbow seasons, crossbow hunting is popular. However, no other season or bag limit has ever been reduced as a result of crossbow hunting being permitted. Where permitted, the crossbow does not discriminate in favor of the physically strong. It enables a wider range of sportsmen (women, professionals, youth, and older hunters) to enjoy the challenges of bowhunting.
MYTH: Crossbow hunting will wipe out the deer herd
FACT: In states with generous crossbow seasons, the success rate of crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters are virtually the same and the deer populations continue to flourish.
MYTH: A crossbow is much more efficient than a vertical bow.
FACT: A modern 150# draw weight compound crossbow delivers the same speed and stored energy as a 65-70 pound compound vertical bow. The crossbow requires twice the amount of draw weight because the power stroke (draw length) is half as long as that of the compound bow. If both types of bows launch the same weight arrow at the same speed, how can a crossbow be more efficient and does the deer really care?
MYTH: The crossbow controversy creates division amongst sportsmen, and the public image of crossbows makes proposed hunting with them counter to the sportsmen’s interests.
FACT: Where permitted, crossbow hunting creates NO controversy except that created by a few individuals who deem themselves and their chosen method of hunting as superior to all others. The public image of crossbows stems from the lack of knowledge of a crossbow’s limited capabilities, as well as the myths touted by those who oppose their use. The TRUE controversy and tragedy of the crossbow issue stems from the time, effort and money spent by so called conservation-minded bowhunting organizations to deny others the opportunity to hunt rather than promoting the virtues of bowhunting to the public.
MYTH: There is an independent study which dramatically shows the superior capability of the crossbow (and its development) over the vertical bow.
FACT: This study is about as independent as a study on the need for sport hunting by P.E.T.A.. The study was commissioned by the Anti-Crossbow Committee of a national bowhunting group. Its author is a member of that group. Much of the hypothetical development of hunting crossbows and the limiting physical factors which prevent such development in vertical bows within the study have already been proven erroneous. It is the purpose of the game regulations by the state to control what advances in technology are suitable for sporting use. No state permits the use of machine guns and handheld rockets during deer rifle season!
MYTH: Because it is not hand-drawn and released, the crossbow is more closely compared to a firearm than a vertical bow.
FACT: Opponents to the crossbow often quote an apples and oranges comparison when voicing this smokescreen. The vertical archer, if they are a sportsman/bowhunter, prior to ever going into the field hunting spends hours and hours working on the physical conditioning required by drawing, aiming and shooting their chosen tool – nothing mystical, just physical work. Once the season starts, the act of drawing, aiming and shooting (especially with high let-off compounds utilizing a triggered release aid) is no more difficult for a vertical bowhunter than a crossbow hunter. Movement is required by both (one to draw back the other to raise the crossbow into a shooting position) to obtain the target at an average of less than twenty yards. Both hunters must be accomplished woodsmen to get that close to a whitetail and still mask those necessary movements.
MYTH: Nobody wants crossbow hunting except the crossbow manufacturers.
FACT: In Ohio, crossbow hunting has been permitted for thirty years and the Ohio Division of Wildlife endorses crossbow hunting and the opportunity it creates enthusiastically. Currently there are more hunters participating in the archery season using a crossbow that are using a hand-held bow. These licensed, legal, law-abiding sportsmen in Ohio are commonly the target of slanderous, erroneous and often untruthful attacks from bowhunting groups opposed to crossbow hunting. Many Ohio crossbow hunters also enjoy shooting with vertical archery tackle.
MYTH: Just because crossbow hunting has been a success story in many states like Ohio, Arkansas and Wyoming we don’t want it in ours. All the bowhunters of “our” state and all of “our” enforcement officers are opposed to it.
FACT: The crossbow is a challenging but effective short-range, single-shot hunting tool which offers additional hunting opportunity and recruitment to hunting ranks. If such an option in not considered advantageous by the sportsmen and game management agencies within the state, then the huntable wildlife resources of that state are not being managed to maximize opportunity for MOST citizens. The sportsmen’s cause and the future of hunting in that state are therefore at risk. Recruitment to hunting ranks should be the goal of ALL game managers and sportsmen. As long as the hunting tool falls within logical parameters of safe, capable and humane harvest capabilities, such recruitment should not be based upon, “do it my way or you can’t do it at all.” How can any organization which represents such a small percentile of the total number of archery tag purchasers in a state be so presumptuous to speak for all bowhunters and deny others? Does not their small total membership compared to the large number of archery hunters suggest perhaps they do not represent the views of the majority?
FACT: It is a fact confirmed by agency statistical data in crossbow hunting states that there are vastly more hunters (or potential hunters) who choose or would choose to hunt with a crossbow than those who oppose them.
FACT: Crossbow hunting is documented as safe, responsible and popular where permitted, and has no ill effect on wildlife resources or any other group of sportsmen – other than self-perceived. Ohio ranks the crossbow as a major recruitment tool for women, youth and professionals. The crossbow hunting opportunity does not create division amongst sportsmen – quite the opposite, it gives the firearms hunter a hands-on perspective of the challenges of archery hunting. The REAL concerns surrounding the crossbow hunting opportunity is the concept that there’s no room for recruitment to hunting ranks unless the tool used is one based upon the emotional, purism standards of a few. Wildlife resources should be managed for the most opportunity for most citizens/sportsmen, not for a select few. Facts, not emotion, document the crossbow hunting opportunity as positive for sportsmen and game management programs everywhere it is available for use.

[Winch101]

Lots of meat on there and well written .
It has been told to me ,that if CB s were allowed in Bow Zones.
They would be overrun with the same knuckle draggers who think
Guns are the only way .

Every body knows that change is not right .
As long as they keep those bow hunters out of the upland
Hunting areas all will be ok. Going in and scaring those young birds
Is pure BS ......Wait. ! I could be a Bowhunter ......elitism the bain
Of our society .

Whose got deeper pockets ,with the NDP ,money talks ....the people
Party . And Crossbowers today are not their kind of people .

[3blade]

I'm not going to bother quoting parts of that monstrosity, but several times you mention the increase in numbers of hunters. Along with agreeing that people will choose string guns over verticals bows, so as to participate in archery season with a minimum of effort and a maximum kill rate. Proving my point for me.

You both (keg and dmcbride) are refusing to acknowledge the fact that this increase must be addressed PRIOR to allowing these hunters to participate. What you are trying to do is shift people out of your chosen hunting area/season, by overcrowding other areas. Same old boys that didn't want to legalize bowhunting in the first place, trying to squeeze it out today.

Yes keg, everything has a price. The price of participating in archery season is significant investment in developing the skills necessary for success. Not buying your way in. Explains a lot about how this province ended up as a banana republic, and why there are so many people losing their minds instead of adapting and working hard.

it was firearm hunters complaining about bow season that brought about those 3 day seasons in the USA. I'm not wishing for that, I don't think we need any changes. Leave bow season how it is, leave general season open for dmcspearchucker and whoever else wants to use whatever. We have the best opportunities in the world, if it ain't broke, don't screw with it!

Your kind are the ones driving down the path to restriction.

[Salavee]

Thanks for posting that McBride. As a senior who has held an Alberta Hunting license for close to sixty consecutive years I despise those few "elitist bowhunters" who put so much effort toward eliminating a hunting opportunity for myself any many others with similar age related physical deficiencies. We are not physically disabled but have certain conditions that prohibit further effective use of a compound bow with what we feel are adequate draw weights.
Hell, I can't even use a X-Bow on my own land because of those selfish suckers. It's definitely time for a change.

[HowSwedeItIs]

Hahaha I love to see these jokers with their noses all out of joint over crossbows... Look at your release/trigger, you're just holding your crossbow the wrong way!

[elkhunter11]

The biggest difference that I see is that pretty much any person can pick up a crossbow and shoot it reasonably accurately, with very little practice. You basically hold it steady like a rifle, and pull the trigger. You can even use a rest to stabilize the crossbow. On the other hand, it takes more practice to be able to accurately shoot a bow . This is even more evident after sitting in the cold waiting for an animal to appear, the person with the crossbow just aims it and pulls the trigger, while drawing a bow after sitting stationary in the cold for a considerable period is much more difficult.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Thanks for posting that McBride. As a senior who has held an Alberta Hunting license for close to sixty consecutive years I despise those few "elitist bowhunters" who put so much effort toward eliminating a hunting opportunity for myself any many others with similar age related physical deficiencies. We are not physically disabled but have certain conditions that prohibit further effective use of a compound bow with what we feel are adequate draw weights.
Hell, I can't even use a X-Bow on my own land because of those selfish suckers. It's definitely time for a change.

YOU DONT OWN WILDLIFE!!!

It doesn't matter if they are on your land. You are the one being selfish.

And bow hunters have not "eliminated" anything. Crossbows were illegal entirely for the vast majority of your supposed hunting career. Get off your high horse and go hunt a general season where it is open.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The biggest difference that I see is that pretty much any person can pick up a crossbow and shoot it reasonably accurately, with very little practice. You basically hold it steady like a rifle, and pull the trigger. You can even use a rest to stabilize the crossbow. On the other hand, it takes more practice to be able to accurately shoot a bow . This is even more evident after sitting in the cold waiting for an animal to appear, the person with the crossbow just aims it and pulls the trigger, while drawing a bow after sitting stationary in the cold for a considerable period is much more difficult.

Maybe we should eliminate autoloading rifles as well.

[3blade]

Done with this thread, I should have known better.

Enjoy your day gentlemen.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Maybe we should eliminate autoloading rifles as well.

Regardless of the action, you can load the firearm in advance, and have it ready to fire for hours at a time, just like a crossbow. You can also stabilize either one on a rest.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Look at who started this thread....should have been deleted the moment it was created.

Then it was bumped by someone banned in less than 24 hours who had all posts removed....and folks are fighting because of it.

There are inherit differences between a compound bow and a crossbow.

....nuff said, not falling into the trap.

LC

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Done with this thread, I should have known better.

Enjoy your day gentlemen.

Yes, you should have known better. You're not the only guy with a "significant investment" in Alberta's hunting heritage.

[hillbillyreefer]

This thread has resulted in bow hunters losing access privileges to my land. The holy than thou crap laid down by elitist bow hunters protecting their unlimited tags and extended seasons caused new rules around my farm.

Why hasn't this thread been locked?

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

Posed a question the other day and was wondering if others are of the same opinion.

Is Hunting with a Crossbow, really bowhunting? I personally do not believe so! What dod you think?

Yes

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

This thread has resulted in bow hunters losing access privileges to my land. The holy than thou crap laid down by elitist bow hunters protecting their unlimited tags and extended seasons caused new rules around my farm.

Why hasn't this thread been locked?

Read my comment above....It was a self serving trap since the day it was created.

LC

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Give up part of your rifle season then. You want something, you pay for it. Not me.

Blade,

I typically don't run with the thunder sticks and trying to limit opportunity is not where I want our passion to go.

Up close and personal takes skill, simple as that. Weapon choice, horizontal or vertical won't play any role in your success if you don't put the time in and learn the art of our sport.

Historical cross over data shows NO long term increase in participation nor success when the horizontal bow was allowed into archery seasons in North America.

Packing my vertical is far easier and more enjoyable than the horizontal bows for hunting application. Who cares what tool is easier to learn on, has a pull trigger and is held with-out mechanical personal force. I don't and this is why I still carry my bow in the general season.

[getatmewolf]

I have resisted commenting on this subject for quite a while, that being said crossbows have no place in the regular bowhunting season. There are a variety of reasons why, most have been said. I will say outright they are my own selfish reasons as a compound bow hunter with the biggest issue being game numbers decreasing and general bowhunting seasons also decreasing as CBs will bring more hunters with more efficient tools to the field.
A CB is a 50 yard rifle, just point and shoot, you don't even have to practice that much. You don't even have to be able to hold it steady, just use a rest.
There is no movement, I will say I could have shot a lot more big mule deer bucks if I didn't have to draw. If I had a CB I could have shot countless large bucks from my belly while hiding in the grass.

If they do ever become legal to use in the general season you better bet I will also have one, I don't want to miss out on the slaughter for as long as the general seasons last. I will want to take that big mule buck I watched all summer the first week.

Im starting to see as I write this that maybe it mostly applies to hunting mule deer spot and stalk as being the biggest advantage with the most to lose.

They have their place for allowing those that cant hunt with a compound an opportunity but it should be limited to that.

This is my opinion, flame on. Better go renew my ABA membership.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Read my comment above....It was a self serving trap since the day it was created.

LC

Yup, he he got his giggles out of this thread, is still getting them today.

It wasn't this thread that ended bow hunting here, that rule has been in place for a few years, this thread reinforced my reasons.