Latest Greatest Muledeer Management Plan

[waterfowler1969]

[QUOTE=hillbillyreefer;2362840]Why not only allow outfitters to harvest flat tops? We live here most of their clients are foreign. Why should they be allowed to help destroy our resource?[/QUOTE]Cause they are selling trophy hunts and no place in north America allows NR to harvest does.



In bold is the biggest load of crap I have ever read. Some outfitters are crooks but none of them do anything to destroy our resource. A lot of them do more for it than you could imagine.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

C'mon Pack and Waterfowler, for being such proactive informed advocates you must have been able to obtain at least some information on the MD management plan discussions....

Buck up....

There is nothing in writing so I cant say there is anything but talks other than what Jim Allen has said he wants to do. If I get anything in writing I will share it with all of you.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Supposedly an old policy contained this understanding. This no longer applies. Landowner Licences for Antlered and Antlerless MD are available on an unlimited Quota. There are many MWU's where Landowners receive more than 10% of the number of licences allocated in the draw.

Despite requesting the Landowner policy documents from ESRD and the AGMAG hunting groups, no one seems to have a copy....






Concluding that previous actions did not stop the spread of CWD is far different than stating "they have all since realized that CWD is not the end of wildlife and that we can live with it in the population without anyone being the worse off."


Remember BSE? Governments and agricultural lobby groups used to say it was no problem, don't worry about it....


To continue to research CWD including possible techniques to control or slow the spread of the disease through hunting makes sense. I rather we pay attention than stick out heads in the sand....


A common complaint by many is the lack of Mature MD Bucks in the CWD zones.
That couldn't possibly be due to CWD, now could it?

This is funny. When was the last time you have been out east? There has been No buck to doe ratio in the eastern part of this province since the die off in the winter of 1995. As for the last 10 years 500 buck tags in all of those zones or unlimited tags has wiped buck out so How the hell is the going to be any mature bucks? Common WB this comment is BS.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

how can you manage animals with unlimited land owner tags? Everybody should be in on the draw. No special tags. As a landowner I would never use that tag cause I dissagree with it.

But would you let an outfitter (NR client) shoot one on your land, even though he has a special tag?

[bobalong]

.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Supposedly an old policy contained this understanding. This no longer applies. Landowner Licences for Antlered and Antlerless MD are available on an unlimited Quota. There are many MWU's where Landowners receive more than 10% of the number of licences allocated in the draw.

A common complaint by many is the lack of Mature MD Bucks in the CWD zones.
That couldn't possibly be due to CWD, now could it?

If you mean that the SRD slaughtered about 8000 deer during their mis-guided/pathetic attempt to control CWD, yes it has a lot to do with it.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bobalong

If you mean that the SRD slaughtered about 8000 deer during their mis-guided/pathetic attempt to control CWD, yes it has a lot to do with it.

Think logically, not emotionally.

Current Alberta data is showing that tested MD have a living CWD prevalence rate of over 1.5% of the population, or 3% of the male component as CWD has shown to be have twice the infection rate in male Mule deer compared to females.

In a non CWD infected herd, male deer would compromise 25% of the population, with mature males comprising 5% of the whole. Consider the effects of having 3% of the bucks infected with CWD. This encompasses most of the mature deer.

Remember, this testing accounts for live deer that were infected with CWD, it does not account for deer that died from the disease. Those mature bucks that died from CWD are not accounted for.


It has been concluded in many jurisdictions that CWD has a significant effect on the Mature male component of the population.



http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...anagement.aspx
◾Infected populations in the core areas of the western US, where CWD has been present for a few decades, have a lower proportion of older-aged deer, and particularly fewer older adult males.
◾Infected deer populations have a lower mean age than uninfected populations.



Which is why I presented the question, Is CWD responsible for the reduced number of Mature Bucks?
The data shows that CWD is having a negative effect.


-----


As usual Waterfowler, even when you are in attendance, you are out of the loop.

From the APOS March 2014 AGM.

"CWD Plans for 2014
ESRD is developing a plan for 2014, with input and discussion with stakeholders. The plan that will be discussed is whether we can use hunting as a tool to contain CWD. We would like to discuss setting up 2 WMU’s with harvest of 3 point or better mule deer bucks (still on a draw) to target the more mature bucks and then follow up with a winter quota hunt around any positives. The quota hunt area would be small, perhaps 4 townships. This would then compare with the higher buck harvest that is now occurring in the CWD zones. There would be no change to WT management. Jim Allen of ESRD will be doing a presentation on this at the AGM."


As Alberta CWD monitoring data has shown that CWD prevalence rates are significantly less in areas that receive disease control measures compared to non-controlled areas. The concept is to apply quota hunts as a means of CWD containment at newly identified hotspots. This makes sense and is worth a try.

[packhuntr]

Huh. Real small, just 4 townships around any pos test while they are wintering eh,,, brilliant. We have very little wintering ground in this area of the prov. lets cut some guys loose in approx 4 townships around EVERY positive and see what the fallout looks like. Stressed herds pushed out of critical areas, does aborting fawns, wildlife impacts other than target species. Impressive stuff.
Mention made about deer that were overtaken by cwd. We watch these deer year round. We see srd's supposed deer numbers by wmu down here, and whats on the hoof never through all this has jived with what is being crammed down our necks. How many of you boys out there that do the same are seeing them bed up and die? How many found deads are you boys pickin up? We aint gettin any. Afew sheds sure. Our deer are visible in the plains. Winters have been tough here but we are way under carrying capacity, deer are on the some of the better winter range. Winter mort has been low on deer. Antelope a different story obviously. That does not meant they can handle hunts while wintered up. This is not pre european occupational/settlement ungulate levels we are talking about. These animals are barely holding on in many areas down here. Weve watched nothing short of attempted extirpation year after year, and the only deads we see are leaving in residents truck boxes... Where are all these cwd morts? We aint finding any... What this all boils down to is where the hell are our game wardens and bio's? We see everything, yet we dont see these guys,,, ever. We should build a computer model, about the only thing these guys understand, in attempt to show likelyhood of an srd employee being caught in the field doing thier job.
Waterfowler id say is spot on. Id say its too bad there arent more folk involved that have some field time under thier belt calling the shots. Wanna talk about recipe for disaster. This would make sense and is worth a try..

[Lefty-Canuck]

Yikes! I don't think the deer should be hunted on their wintering grounds....what a logistic nightmare to control the "cull areas" I certainly will take a "pass" on that opportunity and I will encourage other folks I know who hunt to pass on it as well.

Like you stated Pack what is the impact on the other species getting pushed around and hassled during the time the fawns and calves are still in gestation?...

LC

[BigJon]

I don't believe that animals getting pushed around by hunters on wintering grounds holds any weight at all.

If that is an issue that can be substantiated than perhaps coyote hunters, sledders, drilling rigs, pipeliners, road builders, seismic crews, etc. should be kept out of ungulate wintering areas, which currently does not and ain't gonna happen.

I am not convinced that Alberta's CWD management is spot on but nowhere else has it nailed down either. I wouldn't say that any of the "original" states have come to any conclusions on it. Pretty sure either Wyoming or Colorado is gearing up to prevent a CWD spread in elk. Not sure on too many details.

I've said my piece, better let the whiners that are in the "know" continue whining.

[hillbillyreefer]

[QUOTE=waterfowler1969;2363441]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Why not only allow outfitters to harvest flat tops? We live here most of their clients are foreign. Why should they be allowed to help destroy our resource?[/QUOTE]Cause they are selling trophy hunts and no place in north America allows NR to harvest does.



In bold is the biggest load of crap I have ever read. Some outfitters are crooks but none of them do anything to destroy our resource. A lot of them do more for it than you could imagine.

Let me get this straight, some guides are crooks, but they do no harm to the herds. Landowners who pull landowner tags legally are destroying the resource.
So we need to rid the province of landowner tags so that guides (APOS members, some of who are criminals) can better manage the resource?

Why don't you take your cheer leading in favor of taking hunting opportunities away from regular Albertans over to the APOS site.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by bobalong

But would you let an outfitter (NR client) shoot one on your land, even though he has a special tag?

Maybe. There tags are and always will be allotted in the percentage of resident tags. No control over land owner tags and they have closed more property to trophy hunting by landowners.

Originally Posted by bobalong

[/COLOR][/SIZE]
If you mean that the SRD slaughtered about 8000 deer during their mis-guided/pathetic attempt to control CWD, yes it has a lot to do with it.

Exactly but some people have there blinders on and are more worried about putting more slaughter tags for all to join in on the fun.

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;2363524]Think logically, not emotionally.

Current Alberta data is showing that tested MD have a living CWD prevalence rate of over 1.5% of the population, or 3% of the male component as CWD has shown to be have twice the infection rate in male Mule deer compared to females.

In a non CWD infected herd, male deer would compromise 25% of the population, with mature males comprising 5% of the whole. Consider the effects of having 3% of the bucks infected with CWD. This encompasses most of the mature deer.

Remember, this testing accounts for live deer that were infected with CWD, it does not account for deer that died from the disease. Those mature bucks that died from CWD are not accounted for.


It has been concluded in many jurisdictions that CWD has a significant effect on the Mature male component of the population.



http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...anagement.aspx
◾Infected populations in the core areas of the western US, where CWD has been present for a few decades, have a lower proportion of older-aged deer, and particularly fewer older adult males.
◾Infected deer populations have a lower mean age than uninfected populations.



Which is why I presented the question, Is CWD responsible for the reduced number of Mature Bucks?
The data shows that CWD is having a negative effect.


-----


As usual Waterfowler, even when you are in attendance, you are out of the loop.
From the APOS March 2014 AGM.

"CWD Plans for 2014
ESRD is developing a plan for 2014, with input and discussion with stakeholders. The plan that will be discussed is whether we can use hunting as a tool to contain CWD. We would like to discuss setting up 2 WMU’s with harvest of 3 point or better mule deer bucks (still on a draw) to target the more mature bucks and then follow up with a winter quota hunt around any positives. The quota hunt area would be small, perhaps 4 townships. This would then compare with the higher buck harvest that is now occurring in the CWD zones. There would be no change to WT management. Jim Allen of ESRD will be doing a presentation on this at the AGM."

As Alberta CWD monitoring data has shown that CWD prevalence rates are significantly less in areas that receive disease control measures compared to non-controlled areas. The concept is to apply quota hunts as a means of CWD containment at newly identified hotspots. This makes sense and is worth a try.[/QUOTE]You should read posts instead of flapping your gums. Packhunter and I posted this info already. I have been waiting on an email from another outfitter to post exactly what srd wants to do. (IN RED) Are you kidding me. Sometimes I think people cant get any further from reality. There is no proof of this and is no different than Cotmens BS theory on bing horn sheep.(anybody can change a variable to make there theory look good to others)

Originally Posted by BigJon

I don't believe that animals getting pushed around by hunters on wintering grounds holds any weight at all.

If that is an issue that can be substantiated than perhaps coyote hunters, sledders, drilling rigs, pipeliners, road builders, seismic crews, etc. should be kept out of ungulate wintering areas, which currently does not and ain't gonna happen.

I am not convinced that Alberta's CWD management is spot on but nowhere else has it nailed down either. I wouldn't say that any of the "original" states have come to any conclusions on it. Pretty sure either Wyoming or Colorado is gearing up to prevent a CWD spread in elk. Not sure on too many details.

I've said my piece, better let the whiners that are in the "know" continue whining.

Big difference between all above stated and 1000 retards chasing deer all over, closing down more places to hunt in this province for all hunters. What you don't get is this is the most important time for animals to survive. Chasing them all over the place and what animals don't get shot will die any way do to starvation or shock. This makes me sick that anybody is ok with this.

[QUOTE=hillbillyreefer;2363961]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Let me get this straight, some guides are crooks, but they do no harm to the herds. Landowners who pull landowner tags legally are destroying the resource. Crooks trespass and do thing in the wrong. They do not shoot more than they are allotted. Landowner tags are unlimited and have the right opportunity can destroy herds. Also all you speak of on my land I have to use it. Well I and a few others have caught landowners dragging animals out were they did not own nor did not have a draw but a land owners tag. Also have ran in to land owners magically hunting WT's were no WT is with in 20 miles of there.So we need to rid the province of landowner tags so that guides (APOS members, some of who are criminals) can better manage the resource? No just land owner tags to bucks and put all others on a cap back to 10% not unlimited.
Why don't you take your cheer leading in favor of taking hunting opportunities away from regular Albertans over to the APOS site. LOL. Remember I am an Albertan first and outfitter last. I am for managing our herds not destroying them.

[elkhunter11]

Maybe. There tags are and always will be allotted in the percentage of resident tags. No control over land owner tags and they have closed more property to trophy hunting by landowners.

That is the theory, but that isn't always how it works out. Given that outfitter allocations are based on a five year period, resident tags can be cut dramatically due to population concerns, but the outfitter tag numbers go untouched. The end result is that instead of having the desired 10% of available tags, the outfitters may have 30% to 40% overall, and as high as over 65% of the tags in a particular wmu, as was the case with the pronghorn tags recently.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That is the theory, but that isn't always how it works out. Given that outfitter allocations are based on a five year period, resident tags can be cut dramatically due to population concerns, but the outfitter tag numbers go untouched. The end result is that instead of having the desired 10% of available tags, the outfitters may have 30% to 40% overall, and as high as over 65% of the tags in a particular wmu, as was the case with the pronghorn tags recently.

Who gives a crap, are you out of your mind man! Think, use your head!
I give up. Take everyones tags from them, anyone thats not joe retard resident, take thier tags and shoot those tags out too. Wow, im just in shock, is this a bad dream, are we really this collectively dumb,,, no one really cares about anything besides more tags?

[elkhunter11]

Who gives a crap, are you out of your mind man! Think, use your head!
I give up. Take everyones tags from them, anyone thats not joe retard resident, take thier tags and shoot those tags out too. Wow, im just in shock, is this a bad dream, are we really this collectively dumb,,, no one really cares about anything besides more tags?

Who said anything about more tags, I am in favor of cutting tags to reduce the harvest if necessary to preserve the population, I am even in favor of closing the season if necessary to accomplish that. What I am not if favor of, is cutting resident tags by huge amounts, and not cutting the non resident tags. If we have enough animals, let everyone have some, but when the population is greatly reduced to the point where we can't sustain much, if any harvest, then we need to shut everyone down, not just the residents.

[packhuntr]

Then stop fighting to claim everyone elses tags, and start fighting for a bit more conservative management man! Are you kidding?! Where are you guys losing sight of the only thing that can possibly matter?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Then stop fighting to claim everyone elses tags, and start fighting for a bit more conservative management man! Are you kidding?! Where are you guys losing sight of the only thing that can possibly matter?

I am in favor of game management, and I was in favor of closing the pronghorn season entirely, like Saskatchewan did, but I do believe that the only reason that SRD kept the season open at all, was to let APOS have their tags. Keeping a season open, when the numbers are so low, just to make money for APOS, certainly isn't conservative game management.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Every shareholder in the management needs to give a little back in order to properly manage the mess.....residents, landowners, APOS, Nonresidents.....

Every group should be willing to help where they can, even if that includes closing the season for a recovery.

From what Pack is saying they want to go the opposite direction in the name of CWD "management"

LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Every shareholder in the management needs to give a little back in order to properly manage the mess.....residents, landowners, APOS, Nonresidents.....

Every group should be willing to help where they can, even if that includes closing the season for a recovery.

From what Pack is saying they want to go the opposite direction in the name of CWD "management"

LC

Unfortunately, when money is involved, people are much more reluctant to give back anything. That money , always seems to get in the way of proper game management, as APOS thinks with their wallet, rather than with their heads.

As far as wiping out the population to attempt to eradicate CWD, I certainly don't agree with that idea either.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Unfortunately, when money is involved, people are much more reluctant to give back anything. That money , always seems to get in the way of proper game management, as APOS thinks with their wallet, rather than with their heads.

As far as wiping out the population to attempt to eradicate CWD, I certainly don't agree with that idea either.

They do more for management and our resource than most steak holders. You complain about outfitter tags but thèy were cut to be in line with the policy. You talk about antelope tags but did you know APOS made there outfitters not use a percentage of there tags. All user groups need to loose tags to help with our herds (APOS included which already did). Only group that has not lost is landowners. Like packhunter said we are all for saving or herds or all go out and kill them all. I for one am for saving our herds.

[elkhunter11]

You talk about antelope tags but did you know APOS made there outfitters not use a percentage of there tags.

Resident pronghorn tags were cut by 90% in 2011, would you like to tell us just how many percent outfitter pronghorn tags were cut for 2011?

They do more for management and our resource than most steak holders.

Could you please show us specific examples, of what APOS did to help our game populations?


APOS allows members that have multiple convictions under the Wildlife Act and Criminal Act, that occurred while they were actively outfitting, all in the name of making money.Good luck trying to convince me that they care so much about our wildlife, other than to use it to line their pockets.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Resident pronghorn tags were cut by 90% in 2012, would you like to tell us just how many percent outfitter pronghorn tags were cut for 2012? Up to 50% of there tags.


Could you please show us specific examples, of what APOS did to help our game populations?
Giving $$$ to help pay for Airial counts done for one eg.

APOS allows members that have multiple convictions under the Wildlife Act and Criminal Act, that occurred while they were actively outfitting, all in the name of making money.Good luck trying to convince me that they care so much about our wildlife, other than to use it to line their pockets.

Quit complaining about this as on a legal stand point nothing can anything be done. I agree that people should get kicked out but they can't legally do what you say. If you can show how they can. Please feal free to show me how. Don't forget how you are paying all money for allocations as they are owned by the outfitter.

[elkhunter11]

Up to 50% of there tags.

I see nothing but your say so, to show that the outfitter tags for pronghorn were cut by 50%, and even if they were, that is about half of what the resident tags were cut in 2011, while outfitter tags were not cut at all in 2011. Even if we accept that 50% claim, does that result in APOS members having no more than 10% of the total tags?

Giving $$$ to help pay for Airial counts done for one eg.

So are you telling us that APOS paid the total bill for the aerial surveys? If not,what part of the funds comes from general revenue, paid for by Alberta residents?

Quit complaining about this as on a legal stand point nothing can anything be done. I agree that people should get kicked out but they can't legally do what you say. If you can show how they can. Please feal free to show me how. Don't forget how you are paying all money for allocations as they are owned by the outfitter.

Why would I ignore the fact that APOS allows these convicted individuals to remain members? If APOS is not capable of dealing with their members, then APOS is a useless organization, that should be dissolved, and control handed over to SRD. Why would SRD allow an organization that has members convicted under the Wildlife Act, and the Criminal Act, to have any say in wildlife management in Alberta? It's like letting criminals have a say in making our laws.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Every shareholder in the management needs to give a little back in order to properly manage the mess.....residents, landowners, APOS, Nonresidents.....

Every group should be willing to help where they can, even if that includes closing the season for a recovery.

From what Pack is saying they want to go the opposite direction in the name of CWD "management"

LC

Agreed. But most people and groups cant see past there own nose with greed and not for the benefit for our herds.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That bunch of jibberish, shows us absolutely nothing.

Well you sit behind your computer and whine more about it that helps a lot.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Well you sit behind your computer and whine more about it that helps a lot.

At least I don't pay money to be part of an organization that welcomes convicted criminals and poachers as members.

[hillbillyreefer]

Posted by Waterfowler69
Big difference between all above stated and 1000 retards chasing deer all over, closing down more places to hunt in this province for all hunters. What you don't get is this is the most important time for animals to survive. Chasing them all over the place and what animals don't get shot will die any way do to starvation or shock. This makes me sick that anybody is ok with this.

Wow the 1000 landowners that acquire tags are now "Retards" chasing deer all over. Good to know thanks. I'll be sure and let the couple landowners I know what an upstanding member of APOS thinks of us.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Let me get this straight, some guides are crooks, but they do no harm to the herds. Landowners who pull landowner tags legally are destroying the resource. Crooks trespass and do thing in the wrong. They do not shoot more than they are allotted. Landowner tags are unlimited and have the right opportunity can destroy herds. Also all you speak of on my land I have to use it. Well I and a few others have caught landowners dragging animals out were they did not own nor did not have a draw but a land owners tag. Also have ran in to land owners magically hunting WT's were no WT is with in 20 miles of there.So we need to rid the province of landowner tags so that guides (APOS members, some of who are criminals) can better manage the resource? No just land owner tags to bucks and put all others on a cap back to 10% not unlimited.
Why don't you take your cheer leading in favor of taking hunting opportunities away from regular Albertans over to the APOS site. LOL. Remember I am an Albertan first and outfitter last. I am for managing our herds not destroying them.

Now you are a Game Warden checking tags and licenses, wow who new guides and APOS had that kind of authority? If you walked up to me to check my license we'd have a problem. I also assume you had these poachers charged and they were convicted? Maybe you just want to paint landowners as unscrupulous destroyers of all things wild? That will help push your agenda forward I'm sure.

I'm for managing our herds too, but I'm too much of a "retard" to be trusted with a landowner tag, thanks for letting me know.

[KegRiver]

And that gentleman is why this topic leads no where.

This horse gets flogged every year, often several times a year.
And each time, the only outcome is more hard feelings between hunters.

Yes we are all hunters, whether you hunt as an outfitter, a landowner, or a regular guy with a regular tag. We are all hunters.

More importantly, landowners do not decide how many tags are made available to them. Nore do outfitters.

They have input into the process, and so do you and I.

If their input has more weight then ours. that's not their fault.


If you want things to change. First of all, go after the source of the problem. Government management. Not ofter the stake holders.

All you do by going after each other is weaken the voice of all hunters.


Let me put it to you another way. If I hate you I'm sure not going to willingly give up anything for you.
But if you are my friend, I will gladly give up a little for your sake.


Think about it people.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

I never said land owners. Any body shooting animals for CWD. All Residents involved. Get it? Or do you need it read to you slowley?.

Posted by Waterfowler69
Big difference between all above stated and 1000 retards chasing deer all over, closing down more places to hunt in this province for all hunters. What you don't get is this is the most important time for animals to survive. Chasing them all over the place and what animals don't get shot will die any way do to starvation or shock. This makes me sick that anybody is ok with this.

OK. From what you posted "1000 retards" corresponds pretty close with LOMD tags given out. "closing down more places to hunt in this province for all hunters", usually landowners postng land are the ones closing down hunting on private property. I guess it's just a coincidence.

How does landowners moving deer around while hunting them cause them to starve to death? Around here they seem to migrate into yards where feed is plentiful and the living easy. Or that's what the herd in my yard ATM appears to be saying.
How many people were actually involved in the cull? What areas were shut down to hunting, seems that there is more opportunity to hunt around CWD kills. Less animals but more opportunity.

Have a good one!