Dog breeders- do they have real jobs too?

[Emo]

Don't forget not all litters will be 9 or 10 puppies... I know someone who paid a large stud fee and had one puppy in the litter, plus the bitch had to have a c-section. She calls the puppy her million dollar baby as a joke but she was in the red on that breeding.

For a legitimate breeder who does do all available health testing and does title their dogs in some form, there is very LITTLE money to be made in breeding dogs. A legitimate breeder only breeds a litter generally when they are looking for a puppy for themselves and will be bettering the final product.

Further regulation of the "industry" is a touchy subject. In some states in the US things like this are very extreme, homes are subject to searches, dogs are seized etc. All because someone owns four dogs or has x amount of intact dogs does not mean we should be lumped in with puppy millers or less scrupulous breeders. In Canada we already have the government telling us we can't dock tails and dewclaws etc... Regulation is a very fine line between not infringing on a persons rights and looking out for the animals best interests.

If I had to guess I would say I have spent about $10,000 on my stud dog-two championships with a third title in the works, hips and elbows certified, bi-yearly eye exams by a veterinary opthamologist, two genetic marker tests for genetic diseases, DNA test after so many litters are sired by him, brucellosis test before every breeding etc. etc. And I am not including supplies, food, normal vet bills not related to breeding either.

Ask my husband, breeding dogs is a money pit lol.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Emo

Don't forget not all litters will be 9 or 10 puppies... I know someone who paid a large stud fee and had one puppy in the litter, plus the bitch had to have a c-section. She calls the puppy her million dollar baby as a joke but she was in the red on that breeding.

For a legitimate breeder who does do all available health testing and does title their dogs in some form, there is very LITTLE money to be made in breeding dogs. A legitimate breeder only breeds a litter generally when they are looking for a puppy for themselves and will be bettering the final product.

Further regulation of the "industry" is a touchy subject. In some states in the US things like this are very extreme, homes are subject to searches, dogs are seized etc. All because someone owns four dogs or has x amount of intact dogs does not mean we should be lumped in with puppy millers or less scrupulous breeders. In Canada we already have the government telling us we can't dock tails and dewclaws etc... Regulation is a very fine line between not infringing on a persons rights and looking out for the animals best interests.

If I had to guess I would say I have spent about $10,000 on my stud dog-two championships with a third title in the works, hips and elbows certified, bi-yearly eye exams by a veterinary opthamologist, two genetic marker tests for genetic diseases, DNA test after so many litters are sired by him, brucellosis test before every breeding etc. etc. And I am not including supplies, food, normal vet bills not related to breeding either.

Ask my husband, breeding dogs is a money pit lol.

Super reply, thank you for the insight.

Question- why do they dock tails and dewclaws? The $10,000, over how many years is that? Do you win money or trophies for the title?

[walleyechaser]

emo im not sure if you posted it, what dogs do you breed?

[rottie]

You are right the puppy mills are making money,the ethical breeders that dont over breed their bitches,maintain the dogs health before,during,and after its breeding years are not really going to make much.

Example, my girls dont get bred till age of 3, their lines arent physically mature till then. Depending on her health I may get 2 litters out of her. That puts them at age 5/6 Lets average 5/6 pups per litter. After expenses these pups will have to pay her costs with nome liters out of her for hopefully another 5 years or so.

Its the last years of a dogs life that they start to get real expensive,age related health issue ect can get very pricey

Until people have done it they have no idea of the costs, yes I could reduce my costs and run a mill,but that wouldnt be fair to my dogs ,their pups or future owners.

Its supposed to be something that people enjoy and if a small profit is made thats great, if not I hope the folks that buy one of my pups get the same love and enjoyment out of them that I do my pets.

My girls will be pets/family members first and breeding dogs next. I would be willing to bet lots of responsible breeders feel the same

Ian

[rottie]

Emo you discribed some of what I was trying to say,only wayyy better

Thxs

[TheClash]

why is dog breeding not considered a "real" job?They provide a product that is in demand by the public...no different than cattle ranching, retail outlets or even a restaurant. All of them have costs associated with running their business and all of them have levels of "morality" associated with them....choosing beef from ranchers that pump up their cows with hormones and feeds, or free range etc, buying from fair trade retailers or those that build in sweat shops, eating at restaurants that use local foods and food producers....in all cases it is up to the consumer to decide how and what they want to buy and do their homework, and it is the consumer that will ultimately drive the producers....

[Emo]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Super reply, thank you for the insight.

Question- why do they dock tails and dewclaws? The $10,000, over how many years is that? Do you win money or trophies for the title?

Generally no you do not win money at shows, some of the big ones will offer cash prizes but in order to come out ahead you have to be winning best in show. Trophies are generally not valuable.

Currently my dog is five, most of the money was spent in the first two and half years of his life getting the initial health testing done and his first two championships-American and Canadian titles. He has one more left that I would like him to obtain and then we will probably work on some agility titles as that is his real love. I would like to put a herding title on him to show he is versatile (and he has shown instinct on sheep before) however good dog broke sheep are quite a drive from me.

Dewclaws are mainly taken off to prevent injury, lots of dogs with them left on tear them partially off and they end up having to be removed anyhow. I have seen dogs get them caught in agility equipment and even the spaces between the boards on a deck.

Tail docking is done for two reasons, hygiene and injury prevention. For whoever asked, I breed Australian shepherds, herding dogs. Their breed standard is to have a bobbed tail four inches or less. Some Aussies are born with a natural bobbed tail, others are docked to maintain a uniform breed appearance. When working stock long tails can be stepped on and broken or they can be shut and caught in gates. Long tails are also notorious for becoming filled with burrs and thistles when working the pastures.

Most breeders I know dock tails and remove dewclaws by three days of age if the puppies are healthy. Ear cropping is different (not done in my breed but in some others) as ears are cropped when the puppy is older, between 4 and 6 months usually. Ear cropping is done for two reasons, cosmetic purposes or to prevent injury in fighting breeds, obviously not a necessity these days.

For me breeding and showing dogs is a hobby, considering that I have to find good homes for every puppy I produce and agree to take back any puppy I bred for whatever reason should the owner no longer want it/be unable to keep it, it is in my own best interests to produce fewer, better dogs.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by TheClash

why is dog breeding not considered a "real" job?They provide a product that is in demand by the public...no different than cattle ranching, retail outlets or even a restaurant. All of them have costs associated with running their business and all of them have levels of "morality" associated with them....choosing beef from ranchers that pump up their cows with hormones and feeds, or free range etc, buying from fair trade retailers or those that build in sweat shops, eating at restaurants that use local foods and food producers....in all cases it is up to the consumer to decide how and what they want to buy and do their homework, and it is the consumer that will ultimately drive the producers....

Because puppy mills have dozens to some time hundreds of females, and live off the misery of the animals.
Does a breeder spend 8 hours a day, 5-7 days per week working on the dog? Plus up to 1-2 hours driving?

But, in fact thinking about it more, you make my point. Maybe breeders live solely on the dogs and do not require further income, which was my first question.

[TheClash]

my breeder for both of my dogs does...but that being the case there are many people out there with "real" jobs that do not spend that much time on their jobs....I know orthodontists that work 3-4 days a week and take a month off every third month...is that not a real job? I don't spend 1-2 hours driving to my job in 6 months, is my job not real??

as i said it isn't the breeders it is the customers. As long as people will not do their homework and choose wisely if they are gong with a purebred dog then puppy mills will exist....this includes, imho, buying from pet stores.

However if someone is going to put in the time, effort and money to produce what their customers consider a superior product....and there is the desire from the public for said product why is that not a "real" job?.....

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by TheClash

[COLOR="Red"]my breeder for both of my dogs does[/COLOR.....

Ok, so that would be Yes in their case.

Thank you Sir.

[rottie]

Does a breeder spend 8 hours a day, 5-7 days per week working on the dog? Plus up to 1-2 hours driving?

Yes when I have a litter on the ground it is a full time job, it does however not last year round of course.
During the rest of the year there is training, exercising and the more I get into this there is lots of correspondence from people who have 1 of my pups.
Some of this is just feed back others continue to rely on myself as their breeder to be their go to person,for rverything from training tips to health cocerns.
Its suprising how many people have stayed in contact even when their dog is 4/5 years old. This actually takes a lot of time each week responding to all these folks.
Its nice tho because it allows me to see my pups as adults and get a better feel for which breedings might be good to repeat

Remember as well a person needs facilities to do all the breeding/training and these cost money to obtain/maintain.

If I continue doing this I will need to get an acerage and dog breeding certainly wont pay for that

Good conversation guys

[Ken07AOVette]

Thanks Rottie, excellent reply.

[TheClash]

cool...

[rottie]

Your welcome Ken,its nice to be able to have a good conversation about something I am active in and try and present a positive side to it.
All too often we hear the darker side of profit orientated individuals who run the darn mills and tar us all with the same brush.

How we weed these breeders out is the million dollar question, if people keep buying from them and giving a market for them , unethical breeders with continue to flourish. I always expect new people to have as many questions for me as I will them. If they cant or wont answer some pretty personal questions they arent the right person for my pup. On the other hand they should be able to grill me hard on anything they want about a pup and its ancestory.
Health issues/personality traits/ exercise demands and a whole pile more.

For people interested in a pup of any breed please check out the breeder,ask to see their kennel if at all possible,check on the sanitary conditions, see the parents,the litter mates. Spend as much time with them as you can.

As well ask the breeder about each puppies personality,the breeder darn well better know each puppy very well. They can help pick a pup with the personality traits u desire


Hope some of this makes sense guys

Ian

[TheClash]

I guess what i was trying to get across is the difference in a puppy mill and a good breeder...like what rottie sounds to be. For those that are good breeders, at least the ones I have met, it is a full time job...it may not pay them much, but they devote just as much time to it as many people with "real" jobs do.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by TheClash

I guess what i was trying to get across is the difference in a puppy mill and a good breeder...like what rottie sounds to be. For those that are good breeders, at least the ones I have met, it is a full time job...it may not pay them much, but they devote just as much time to it as many people with "real" jobs do.

Gotcha!

[rottie]

Originally Posted by TheClash

I guess what i was trying to get across is the difference in a puppy mill and a good breeder...like what rottie sounds to be. For those that are good breeders, at least the ones I have met, it is a full time job...it may not pay them much, but they devote just as much time to it as many people with "real" jobs do.

Thxs Clash

You are right the financial rewards over the long haul really arent why we do it.
We are trying to produce good sound healthy dogs both in personality and health wise. The best we can hope for is that our new owners will get as much joy/love and satisfaction out of their new family member as we do ours.

Its a hobby that if you enjoy it and break even or if your lucky make a small profit ( which always seems to go back into your dogs ) you are doing well.

It is however fun,I truly do love having the pups around and find it hard to let them go,after spending 24/7 with them for 8 weeks.

Lucky with the holiday time I occur at work plus our shift rotation I am able to do this

Ian

[Redfrog]

"If a guy had no morals wow could you make money "

Ken the same could be said of a gal.



"You can raise horses for less. "

And still not make money.
I've bred a few of my mares to produce a horse with specific qualities. During the 20 year process. I've had some foals that were not what I wanted. They were healthy and socialized and 'nice' horses, just not what I wanted. Problem is they were two or three years old before I decided they would not make the cut. I could easily have bought a three year old started horse for much , much less than it cost me to raise these youngsters that I now wanted to sell. I had some very happy neighbor kids.



DeanMc
Thats is a puppy mill you described. If they have dogs that are so poorly socialized that they are kept in separate cages that is all I needed to hear.Those are not pets they are income earners. My wife breeds dogs and one dog may have 4 litters over its entire life max. And the only time they are seperated is during welping or if a bitch is in season. Then she is kept seperate from our male.

Dean do you show your dogs or compete. I don't know what breed you have, but am curious as to your reasons for breeding.

You are correct of course that puppy mills are not great places for dogs or pups.


Ken when I read your first post, I think you covered the exact thinking that goes through the mind of a lot of people. And like so many things in life reality is far different.

I used to date the prom queen and every day I couldn't believe my good fortune, for a few weeks. Gradually I came to realize that even though she was bright, and beautiful, she was available because somewhere there was a guy[s] who got tired of putting up with her crap.

I used to have a landscape business. We had a crew that did a lot of maintenance. I often had guys apply for work. When I asked about experience, I got 'How hard is it to follow a lawn mower?" By day two most had quit, cause there was more to it than appeared to be.

I also charged my clients a higher rate than my competition. I always had more work than I could handle and clients that dropped me for some one cheaper, tried to hire us back. Unfortunately they had to wait till the following season. If my guys stayed with it and did the job I expected they also got paid much more than the competition.

I have some up close and personal experience with puppy mills and backyard breeders and the raids conducted by both SPCA in B.C. and the Humane Society in Ontario. i was an inspector with these organizations for a few years.

I know you are talking about unscrupulous breeders making a lot of money, but a person could make a lot growing dope or fencing stolen property. It is particularly disturbing because abused animals are involved.

Anyone who goes into dog breeding for the money is on a fool's mission. A conscientious breeder will be lucky to break even or maybe cover some expenses involved campaigning his dog.

I was talking with another AO member last week. He has his dog down south U.S. for training because there are actually places where the water stays soft all winter. Having a dog with a pro trainer is not cheap. the dog was in a competition last weekend, but I haven't heard how it did yet.

I do know this. For the thousands of dollars already invested in this dog, who is less than 1 year old, the winning of a RIBBON, will be worth it.

Of course he also has hopefully a dozen plus years of awesome dog work to watch.

People who are full time dog breeders, are also full time dog trainers, or purveyors of equipment , food etc.

If you want to make a living you better really know your stuff, dogs, and be very versatile. At that point you may make a living, but you won't get rich.

I think welding is where the El Dorado is.

[vettedreamer]

Love this

[vettedreamer]

Hi. I don't usually post here my hubby does. But I love this conversation so I thought I would join in.
Research is the key for anyone purchasing a dog. It was one of our hardest lessons. When I started breeding I thought this is going to be easy. I had worked with other breeders, researched my butt off, books upon books and pages of noted and I went into this completely ready (or so I thought). I found an amazing labrador, she was a gorgeous puppy, she had the best temperament and she was a wonderful mama. I used a stud from a breeder friend, she had 5 perfectly healthy babies that were so easy, they weaned easily, they were easy to train they were sooooo laid back like their Mom. It was perfect. So I said I can do this, and I will make a difference as a breeder, I will make sure my clients are informed and can talk to me any time, I will health test all my dogs, I will be available to my clients, I will show my dogs, train my dogs, and I will make sure I know enough about my puppy people to know exactly what type of puppy they need for their lifestyle because when you match a family and a puppy it works so well.

After all that research and time (2 years while my dog grew to breeding age). I learned I wasn't quite prepared for the reality (puppies you buy from great lines that don't pass a health clearance, or mamas who are finished after one litter for one reason or another, and so many more obstacles)

but I do all the things I set out to do and nothing frustrates me more than to meet "reputable breeders" who are ckc members but do 0 health testing, have little to NO interaction with their dogs (especially when it's labs because they are so social) but can have a great conversation on a phone with someone who is just looking for a puppy ... they are great salesmen. I had a "friend" who paid off her house with her puppy money (her words) and bought big ticket items and I thought what the hec am I doing wrong here. Well I am not doing anything wrong my dogs are not just a business they are MY dogs, and live in my crazy little house, and love people because they are constantly interacted with.
For me this is my love and my passion and my dogs are part of our family that sleep in beds and hang out. We get a little emotional when our 8 week old babies leave. Our tag line is where families are completed because that is what a dog does.
So if you are looking for a breeder let me tell you what I have learned from purchasing my dogs over the years. If you feel like you're interrupting a breeder's day when you phone you are! hang up and call the next one! If a breeder doesn't ask you one question about what your lifestyle is like or what you're looking for in a puppy hang up they don't care they just want to sell you a dog ANY dog and you may luck out and get the right one but you may not. If a breeder doesn't want to hear from you once a puppy leaves find another.
Those of us who love what we do when you walk away with our puppy don't feel our job is done.
We send people home with a cd of pictures from newborn to 8 weeks, all parents paperwork, treats, food, more info than they can handle, and direction. We also are open for any question anytime to help them deal with any situation. We have had people call us that don't have our dogs, but found no help through their breeder found our website and phone.
This is my job and it is fulltime because I want it to be. It probably doesn't need to be, but we have a website that is regularly maintained, we have a facebook page for our clients to interact together as well as with us, sometimes I can spend an hour on the phone with one puppy person, and we have a blog where we post info about training that has worked for us, info on products we have found, answers to questions our puppy people have. It's great and fun and i think I have the best puppy people.
A good breeder knows everything about their dogs and puppies and they never rush you into a decision because they want the choice to be as right as you do. Our puppy people gladly drive to our acreage in the middle of no where from 4 or 5 hours away and they may spend 3-4 hours here visiting with our dogs and us.
So I guess what I am saying is there are breeders out there who make a crap load of money but they also don't put good healthy lines out there. But it doesn't matter to them because you will rarely get in touch with them if there is a problem. I do not justify my prices because I am not asked to by the people that do research or have had the experience of buying a lab from a puppy mill and have it die in 3 months or less or have to be out down at the age of 3 or 4 because their hips are so bad. But I will say I have met many people who have learned heart wrenching lessons by thinking it's just a dog I am not paying that price I am going to go get this 200.00 dog. the problem is the dog may not make it through it's first year.

Sorry it's so long, this is one of my favorite subjects people need to not look at the price of a dog! They need to take off their blinders and hear what a breeder is saying and not saying on the phone and know what they want and don't be intimidated by a breeder. The only way to get what you want for the next 12 - 15 years is to be heard, if the person you're talking to you doesn't seem to want to listen you could be making the worst investment that will neither serve you or the dog.
Not every good breeder is as crazy as I am with client interaction, but they all care a great deal about their dogs and puppies and where they are going.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Sounds like an awesome buddy! The last one I looked at was a Mastiff named Mercedes, huge gorgeous animal. The guy that had her was forced to relocate and could not take her with him, wanted $3000.00 and I am sure she was worth every penny.

I would guess they make more like $1500 - $2000 or up, $46,000 minus $34,000 at $2000 per leaves a LOT of room for expenses. You can raise horses for less.

No doubt. But to command those prices she has done a lot of work with bloodlines, both in North America, and Germany. That $tuff adds up quickly. Plus to even think of that kind of money, she shows on a regular basis in order to 'prove' the line or whatever is the term the breeders use.

I can't put a price on the joy my Giants have brought me over the years. Or the grief that lasts over 3 years from losing my last one to old age (had to put him down, but at least he fell asleep in my arms... pardon me, I think I need to go and have a good cry now)

Other than that Ken, if the dog is what you really want, don't even try to justify the cost. It will never make any cents

But the memories are priceless.

[vettedreamer]

only 20 stitches underneath her leg frick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all while doing chores putting baby to sleep watch nuckes win and being called out at the same time WHA HOOOOOOO

[Ken07AOVette]

Awww poor puppy!

What happened?

[vettedreamer]

She was playing with her sister last night before going in for bed and found one little bolt sticking out of a spare chain link. So she cut her cape(thankfully only that) underneath her fron leg. So in the middle of the trip to vets I got called out so had to turn around and switch vehicles and she licked it to the point her cape fell to below her knee. But 20 stitches later we got her back home safe and sound.

[densa44]

This is a great post but as one other member has stated let the buyers set the prices and how the dogs are bred. If a dog's parents don't have field trail points, sometimes National championships I'm not interested.

Those pups are usually sold to "field trail" families. They are excellent dogs.

I don't think that there are that many people getting rich quick breeding dogs.

Not the kind of dogs, people on this post would buy IMO.

[puphood1]

Not to be sarcastic but:
My question is how many people actually screen them selves and their partners for genetic health issues before they decide to have children.
We then could take the term backyard breeder to a new level.

That is not to say that you should not have a idea of what you want in a pups health record but be prepared to pay for the testing in your pups final price tag.

In Field trial/hunting dogs another thought is the descriptive terms for dogs as apposed to actually going out and seeing the dogs perform their respective tasks. In the field trial game one learns that you go to production records and actually watching the dogs to see if the prospective stud/Dam will fit/improve your breeding programs objectives.............puphood1