Dog breeders- do they have real jobs too?

[Ken07AOVette]

There is a family online selling 9 pups, 600.00 per.
$5400.00 from the one female alone.
They are not even registered, said if registered they would be a grand each, so $9000.00 because fluffy and muffy played leap frog.

How many breeding pairs constitutes a puppy mill? There is a far here with 7 females in separate cages. Average 7 females x 6 pups x 600 x 2 times per year = $50,000.00 per year. How many dogs in pet stores sell for $1200+?

Don't even go into the 'shots, feeding, etc' bs, the costs are minimal. These breeders do not spend thousands on vet bills, they use a 22 and dispatch the runts/ugly/deformed ones.

The other thread about animal ownership sparked this one.

If a guy had no morals wow could you make money

[FishingFrenzy]

I find it really wrong that people are willing to pay 600+ bucks for a family dog when there are tons and tons of great dogs for free. Either in shelters or in the care of a family who can no longer keep them...... just my thoughts.

Now obviously if your looking for a super smart, perfect gundog i understand paying the price for one.. but for just a family pet..?

Well it's sad but true Ken. People do make money off exploiting dogs like property. If you are breeding carefully and to improve a breed then you lnow as i do that you do not make much if any money after health clearances, vet visits for puppies, quality diet, time+effort+missing wages while your litter is on the ground and registering your litter and individual puppies. Not to mention all the supplies involved in being PROPERLY prepared to whelp a litter of puppies.

I know alot of people will call a pedigree 'just an piece of paper' but it's alot more then that. People need to look at the fact that of you do all these thing listed above you can sell your litter for alot more which usually (not always) singles out a more committed group of buyers and reduces the amount of dogs that end up homeless or mistreated. If your name and reputation is on these dogs and that is actually important to you then one would be more inclined to keep a contract of ownership/care with each puppy and actually enforce it.

[rugatika]

people that breed their bitches once a year (or more) can likely make money. Any reputable breeder I have ever encountered typically spends a fair bit of money travelling to shows, trials, etc. and usually only breed once every couple years max and truly do it for the love of the breed. They refuse to sell to just anyone with some money and will often turn down sales to people they don't "feel" right about. I have great respect for people that breed dogs with care and a huge amount of disdain and outright hatred for people that do it solely for the money with no respect for their dogs.

Some people do it for the money and treat the dogs like machines (although some would argue that most businesses treat their machines better). I've heard of some pretty sad cases of abuse by people that keep their dogs in a small kennel and take them out once in a while and for breeding. Sad.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

There is a family online selling 9 pups, 600.00 per.
$5400.00 from the one female alone.
They are not even registered, said if registered they would be a grand each, so $9000.00 because fluffy and muffy played leap frog.

How many breeding pairs constitutes a puppy mill? There is a far here with 7 females in separate cages. Average 7 females x 6 pups x 600 x 2 times per year = $50,000.00 per year. How many dogs in pet stores sell for $1200+?

Don't even go into the 'shots, feeding, etc' bs, the costs are minimal. These breeders do not spend thousands on vet bills, they use a 22 and dispatch the runts/ugly/deformed ones.

The other thread about animal ownership sparked this one.

If a guy had no morals wow could you make money

I'm not sure I see your motivation for this post?

[vettedreamer]

Yes Ken it still is a real job. we have 3 breeding females they breed once per year and 2 stud males. We do it not for the cash (cause there is none) we do it becasue we love the breed, in our kennell we continueally strive to improve the breed. I'm dam proud of our kennel and there just never is enough money laying around to do all the improvement we would like to do. My dogs all make there round in the show ring we do not sell with breeding right our line is our line. No not all our dogs are showable so that is what we strive for, as well as the intellegence factor. There are shots and gaurentees and vet visits, hips elbow eyes genetic testing, bringing up pups that do not conform to our standards or to ckc standards, the loss of one of the puppies in our lines for whatever reason are gaurenteed.
Now saying this there are many breeders who are in it for the money but I gaurentee they have many sleepless nights vet bills and some of the kennel problems we have as well, if they actually do it for longer than 2 to 3 litters they realize it is not a walk in the park. We have run into a few ourselves, rescued some dogs from poor breeders had dogs sold without proper clearances poor breeding practices you bet all of it, BUT just like in any business there are those apples in the patch in industry in convenience in all of it there are bad apples.

What we stress and invite is DO YOUR RESEARCH. The only way to stop and improve questionable breeding practices is research reasearch. I'm sure you knew this but there is my two cents.

[vettedreamer]

Its the only way to stop bad breeding STOP buying.

[wwbirds]

Like Ladygun says some of us spent 16 years on the field trial circuit or in Community halls teaching people how to do obedience to build our reputation and have been registered breeders fo rover 30 years with the CKC. We meet with potential buyers several times and some have said it is like a job interview. We have booklets which we printed at our cost prior to internet websites and printing programs to guide people through the training process whether it is hunting, field trials or obedience. A healthy and well behaved dog is a pleasure to have around for many years. Ask yourself or Redfrog how much it costs to attend trials in 3 provinces to establish that reputation or go to the Nationals. Sure it isn't going to break the bank in food or vet costs but having a special 2200 square facility for just the dogs is a good $60,000. with welping facilities. Put vet bills for all the eye and hip and health clearances together and you have a sizable investment as a professional trainer and breeder that is a CKC member and licenced breeder that registers every puppy.

Then get backyard breeder who talks about sending dogs all over the continent with no health problems because they don't believe "paper makes the dog any better".
Lack of investment in proving or registering the dogs they market makes profits better. That is the puppy mill concept, limited investment maximize profit.
To some raising dogs professionally and registering them to ensure people get what they pay for is a bad word because operating professionally is considered a commercial venture or "elitist" I think one backyard breeder even called us uppity this week. if you raise them for a hobby and put out 5 generations in 12 years without proving or registering anything then you are allowed to mention them here without become a sponsor as you are just a hobby breeder. To me anything not registered proven or certified with a written guarantee is a puppy mill regardless of the quantity of dogs pumped through the mill. Hobby breeders who give puppies to friends and relatives for nearly zero costs are hobbyists. Opportunists who take advantage of the hard work and reputation of reputable breeders by charging regular purebred registered prices are taking advantage of the uneducated public who want and believe they are getting a purebred quality dog when in fact they may not be.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I'm not sure I see your motivation for this post?

I am going to Calgary tomorrow, and inevitably we end up in a pet store or 2. I was thinking of the prices for the animals, and as I was thinking that I was clicking through the channels, came across the show that investigated puppy mills selling to the same chain we go to. This one family had 200 4x4x4 crates full of dogs, staked 4 high. They lived in a mansion, and slammed the curtains shut when animal control and the cameras showed up.

My motivation? Living off dogs. It was just one of those segways.

Wwbirds I understand your point of view, as well as FSL. I do not in any way group you in with the animals that abuse these dogs.

[vettedreamer]

Ken don't ever feel bad about opening a conversation like this. If anything it opens up people's eyes bring elightment and general knowledge EASILY to people, which at times and for some seems complicated. To be honest we charge more for our dogs really to weed out people who seem to support breeders who charge less who are not picky and seem to have not done there homework.

Education education education.


p.s. Also gonna tell you we've made our share of mistakes and probably will make a few more but god Dam do we try hard and at times it sure seems like we are spinning our wheels.
But onward for the best breed we can put out there(pushin a rock pushin a rock pushin a rock)

[Off in the Bushes]

We have breed bulldogs once and there is no $ in it, and they sell for Upwards of $1700 for a registared dog. She had 5 pups and the vet bill ate all profit and then some, there are alway complication no matter how smooth/ profitable the plans seems.
If you are breading for $ you are in it for the wrong reasons and should not be breeding. You always want to promote the bloodlines to have healthy dogs and $ breeders are just not into that, from my experience.

[Ken07AOVette]

Good replies guys. Thank you.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by freespiritlabradors

Its the only way to stop bad breeding STOP buying.

Good luck there. Some of these "pets", represent a Fashion statement to a lot of people. They figure they're not well dressed, unless they're dragging, or carrying, some furry mutt around with them.

Grizz

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Good luck there. Some of these "pets", represent a Fashion statement to a lot of people. They figure they're not well dressed, unless they're dragging, or carrying, some furry mutt around with them.

Grizz

Not to mention 'wearing' the dogs while they are driving. How is that not illegal?

[Whiskey Wish]

I have had this discussion a number of times with a number of different people and there never seems to be an easy answer. For the most part I am dead set against more laws, rules and regulations but I think we, as a society, have proven beyond a doubt that we are incapable of self regulating when it comes to pets. The pet crisis, and make no mistake it IS a crisis, seems to make reasonable, intelligent people lose all logical intellect and it turns into an emotional heated argument that solves nothing.
One of my motivators for proposing my own solution was a discussion that I had with a vet who also happens to be a personal friend. He told me that he had attended university for eight years and practiced veterinary medicine for 20 years hoping to help and heal animals and almost 30% of his job has turned into killing (euthanizing) animals. That is a sad comment on the pet industry in our nation.

Unfortunately the only solution I can see is regulating the breeding and selling of pets. There are no immediate or perfect solutions but one solution I see is to make the licensing of neutered pets cheap and the licensing of intact pets expensive. If a neutered pet is recovered by animal services make its return to the rightful owner the first couple of times inexpensive. Make the return of an intact pet expensive. Have a partial refund available if proof or neutering is returned within a certain time frame.

I would like to see ALL breeders of pets licensed. Make the licensing contingent upon successful completion of an in depth course covering all the aspects of proper breeding, care, marketing etc. of pets. Create a pet breeders association tasked with the running of the courses and creating a code of conduct, standards, policing and enforcement etc for the animal breeding industry much like APEGGA for engineers or APOS does for outfitters. Give the association teeth to use for enforcement. The course should be available to anyone willing to take it but make the cost sufficient to cover the cost of running the association and the cost of the course. It shouldn’t be cheap imho. Make the breeding of pets without membership in the association an offence with fines and seizures of pets.
Understand that there will be black market pets, breeders who either flaunt the rules or outright break them and people who will find ways to get around the rules. It won’t be a perfect solution however; it is one way to start to fix the problem because the status quo simply is not working. I am sure there are people in the pet breeding industry that could come up with some better ideas and they should step forward and begin the process. As well there will be breeders that will object to any kind of regulation but my answer to them is we have tried that solution for the last few hundred years and it obviously is not working.
As a parting comment I would like to state that I am not a pet breeder and have no intention of becoming one. I am simply an owner of neutered pets that sees a tremendous problem with pet over populations and un-regulated breeding in Alberta.
Great thread Ken. It has the potential to prompt some interesting and educational ideas and discussion. Unfortunately it will likely deteriorate into a poop show in the next 20 posts or so.
My two cents.


Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[deanmc]

Thats is a puppy mill you described. If they have dogs that are so poorly socialized that they are kept in separate cages that is all I needed to hear.Those are not pets they are income earners. My wife breeds dogs and one dog may have 4 litters over its entire life max. And the only time they are seperated is during welping or if a bitch is in season. Then she is kept seperate from our male.

[New Hunter Okotoks]

I bought a Golden Retriever back in 1996 for $750. I researched a few different breeders and visited their places. I eventually purchased my pup from who I felt was the best. They had 9 Goldens at their place and it was spotless. The whole living room was filled with ribbons,and trophies. The dogs were all friendly and intelligent and had run of the house. They said that they interviewed prospective new owners and refused roughly 1/3 of those wishing to purchase because they didn't feel that their dogs would be going to proper homes. People saying that they wanted to surprise their kids with a birthday present etc. They also stated that at ANY point, they would buy the dog back(for the original purchase price) if the people no longer wanted or had time for the dog. They had 2 dogs that were bought back and were fixed. They could no longer breed the dogs but still they bought them back so they did not end up in a crappy home. He was the greatest dog I have ever known and many others stated the same. This same breeder told me that he was considering raising his price even more just to weed out the non-serious or non-commited owner.

An aquaintance of mine gave me the old $750 FOR A DOG!!!! thing and I think he purchased a Non Registered "Purebred" Golden for half what I paid to spite me. His dog was the worst Retriever ever. Tempermental,aggressive to other dogs, didn't like water, and would only sometimes retrieve. He paid $300 and was the worst money he ever spent since that dog lived for almost 13 years.

This is just how I look at it and my opinion,but consider this. Assume that the dog will live for at least 12 years. Now think about how important an investment a dog is especially if you consider a dog to be part of the family. Now think about how much you are willing to spend on a set of tires or a new Television. Kind of puts it into perspective.

[Off in the Bushes]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

I would like to see ALL breeders of pets licensed. Make the licensing contingent upon successful completion of an in depth course covering all the aspects of proper breeding, care, marketing etc. of pets. Create a pet breeders association tasked with the running of the courses and creating a code of conduct, standards, policing and enforcement etc for the animal breeding industry much like APEGGA for engineers or APOS does for outfitters. Give the association teeth to use for enforcement. The course should be available to anyone willing to take it but make the cost sufficient to cover the cost of running the association and the cost of the course. It shouldn’t be cheap imho. Make the breeding of pets without membership in the association an offence with fines and seizures of pets.
Understand that there will be black market pets, breeders who either flaunt the rules or outright break them and people who will find ways to get around the rules. It won’t be a perfect solution however; it is one way to start to fix the problem because the status quo simply is not working. I am sure there are people in the pet breeding industry that could come up with some better ideas and they should step forward and begin the process. As well there will be breeders that will object to any kind of regulation but my answer to them is we have tried that solution for the last few hundred years and it obviously is not working.

In theory this might sound good but there are alot of politics in the breeding of dog amungst other breeders. There would be a ton of mud throwing if this was the case. Breeders ratting one another just to get their name up on the next guy. But it would be a start.

[wwbirds]

To some extent we already have much of what you are looking for with the Canadian Kennel Club and the Livestock Pedigree Act. Unfortunately that only controls breeders who belong, subscribe contribute and follow their rules. Unfortunately you have a large number of pets that are breed indiscriminately to feed a consumer market and many are not controlled by anyone or even recognizable. Many of the mixes sold by pet stores are made up names of crosses. Registered kennels and reputable breeders will not sell puppies to a pet store so this creates a market for the puppy mills who wil keep churning them out as long as the public keeps spending money rather than getting an education.
Like drug dealers there are small time operators and major players in any illegitimate activity to make money. The guys with 8 crated poorly cared for females who are contained only to produce puppies every six months fuel the pet stores. Looking at a cute puppy people often dont realize the sad history that produced it so continue to unknowingly support the puppy mills.

[artie]

Originally Posted by FishingFrenzy

I find it really wrong that people are willing to pay 600+ bucks for a family dog when there are tons and tons of great dogs for free. Either in shelters or in the care of a family who can no longer keep them...... just my thoughts.

Now obviously if your looking for a super smart, perfect gundog i understand paying the price for one.. but for just a family pet..?

What I don't like is all the rescue reserve dogs coming into town. They are even bringing them from Mexico. Lots of these dogs have problems that is beyond the abilities of the average beginner dog owner. You then have a dog who is afraid of his shadow and after seeing a few dog trainers you decide to put the dog down. There should be a better neutering program on the reserves.

[pattycr125]

i think if you have one or two pairs of breeding dogs that are very friendly with each other and you have lots of time and attention for the puppies then they should turn out fine. i think it would be a good way to make extra income for a stay at home wife who lives on an acreage, if you don't have all day to take care of them they will not turn out well.

[CaberTosser]

I have a question for freespiritlabrador: you said that you don't sell with breeding rights, which; being unfamiliar with purebred dog breeding practices & customs, I find to sound rather odd. Does this mean that you ensure the animals are neutered before you sell them, or does it mean if the new owner breeds their animal with another (lets assume another CKC registered purebred), that you deny them claim to the bloodline through official CKC paperwork channels. From my interpretation it doesn't sound like a practice I'd support morally, unless its sole reasoning is to prevent your animals bloodlines from getting puppy-milled by the new owners, who then would devalue your lifes work. That I can agree on, but much else just comes off to me like elitism; correct me from any misinterpretations please.

[Whiskey Wish]

I agree with you WW that there will always be "abusers" and that what I proposed is far from a perfect system. Keep in mind these were my mind ramblings from a person that does not breed dogs and has no stake in it at all. My proposal does not make membership voluntary such as the CKC or the vague and difficult to enforce L.P.A. My comparison to APEGGA or APUS was deliberate. Membership in good standing is NOT an option in the province of Alberta and any to attempt to practice any of those professions without a membership will cause legal action to be brought against the person(s).
As for politics I don't think that the politics of pet breeders can be any worse than the politics of engineers, geologists, geophysicists and big game outfitters.
I did not suggest that any members would be forced to breed only purebreds. If a person chooses to become a member and breed Great Danes to Chihuahua's then that would be their own choice and the market would determine their success or failure. As long as a member conforms to the code of conduct, ethics and proper care as determined by a "breeders association" then they would be free to breed any animals they choose.
Registered kennels can continue to boycott retail pet stores. If a "registered breeder" wishes to sell to a pet store then that would be their own choice but at least they would be held to the standards of a breeders association and failure to meet those standards could carry real penalties.
I agree there will always be abusers to some extent. If we cannot control something as serious as drugs how will we ever get 100% control over something such as animal breeding? But any step in the right direction is an improvement over the status quo imho.

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

Originally Posted by wwbirds

To some extent we already have much of what you are looking for with the Canadian Kennel Club and the Livestock Pedigree Act. Unfortunately that only controls breeders who belong, subscribe contribute and follow their rules. Unfortunately you have a large number of pets that are breed indiscriminately to feed a consumer market and many are not controlled by anyone or even recognizable. Many of the mixes sold by pet stores are made up names of crosses. Registered kennels and reputable breeders will not sell puppies to a pet store so this creates a market for the puppy mills who wil keep churning them out as long as the public keeps spending money rather than getting an education.
Like drug dealers there are small time operators and major players in any illegitimate activity to make money. The guys with 8 crated poorly cared for females who are contained only to produce puppies every six months fuel the pet stores. Looking at a cute puppy people often dont realize the sad history that produced it so continue to unknowingly support the puppy mills.

[Off in the Bushes]

Originally Posted by artie

What I don't like is all the rescue reserve dogs coming into town. They are even bringing them from Mexico. Lots of these dogs have problems that is beyond the abilities of the average beginner dog owner. You then have a dog who is afraid of his shadow and after seeing a few dog trainers you decide to put the dog down. There should be a better neutering program on the reserves.

Once a year I think that there is a free spade and neuter clinic over the coarse of a weekend that people can take their pets and have them done along with the strays. On the reserves.

[Got Juice?]

2700 paid for my last Giant Schnauzer Pup.

Papered, Chipped, show quality dog. Who works for a living, no schutzund/ tracking or agility training.

It's all relative.

And if he has you introduced as a friend, he is a 29" (at the shoulder) 140lb goofball that is excellent with kids and people introduced as 'friends'. (parents take note to NOT spank their child when my dog had been charged with their care. He will rip you a new one, friend or not)

Family protector, companion, and very birdy which is not what the breed is known for but, that's just luck I guess.

I love my Giant. and you can't put a price on that.

The litter he came from (Tulah) had 17 pups. 17x2700= 45900.00

And the breeder is an ATC as well.

Do they make money? Of course they do. But at stud fees, vet bills, food bills (pregnant bitches carrying 17 will go through a ton of food while pregnant and then some more when nursing) pls the chip/tattoo, papers.

Probably make around 450 per dog i would reckon.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Got Juice?

2700 paid for my last Giant Schnauzer Pup.

Do they make money? Of course they do. But at stud fees, vet bills, food bills (pregnant bitches carrying 17 will go through a ton of food while pregnant and then some more when nursing) pls the chip/tattoo, papers.

Probably make around 450 per dog i would reckon.

Sounds like an awesome buddy! The last one I looked at was a Mastiff named Mercedes, huge gorgeous animal. The guy that had her was forced to relocate and could not take her with him, wanted $3000.00 and I am sure she was worth every penny.

I would guess they make more like $1500 - $2000 or up, $46,000 minus $34,000 at $2000 per leaves a LOT of room for expenses. You can raise horses for less.

[vettedreamer]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I have a question for freespiritlabrador: you said that you don't sell with breeding rights, which; being unfamiliar with purebred dog breeding practices & customs, I find to sound rather odd. Does this mean that you ensure the animals are neutered before you sell them, or does it mean if the new owner breeds their animal with another (lets assume another CKC registered purebred), that you deny them claim to the bloodline through official CKC paperwork channels. From my interpretation it doesn't sound like a practice I'd support morally, unless its sole reasoning is to prevent your animals bloodlines from getting puppy-milled by the new owners, who then would devalue your lifes work. That I can agree on, but much else just comes off to me like elitism; correct me from any misinterpretations please.

Our dogs come with a signed contract in which no purebred or ckc paperwork is transfered from our kennel name to the new family is exchanged till neuter vet papers are exchanged. Elitism at times is my small way of ensureing our line is never used in legal breeding (CKC registered). Now with that being said there is absolutlely nothing we can do to ensure that our line is not bred with out proper paperwork or ckc registered. We do have a clause in our contract that does state that we can and have the right to remove our line from any situation that is harmful to our line or our puppies. Though we have only excersized this one time.
Hope this helps.

Ken what a great conversation.

[vettedreamer]

Originally Posted by pattycr125

i think if you have one or two pairs of breeding dogs that are very friendly with each other and you have lots of time and attention for the puppies then they should turn out fine. i think it would be a good way to make extra income for a stay at home wife who lives on an acreage, if you don't have all day to take care of them they will not turn out well.

This is always NICE thinking but thats where it ends. You may have never talked with a family that has a 22 month old dog that has gone blind or needs hip operations or broken ankles or cronic eating allergies on and on and on. They should turn out fine is I'm sorry to say a crap shoot. Just my small opinion.

[rottie]

When factoring cost remember to figure vet bills. Not just for the litter but the breeding parents as well. Also eventually you will have bitches that are past the breeding age,these dogs as they ag are going to have health issues just like us humans.
This is where some of the costs are never recovered ,she still needs a good loving home, yet her maintainence costs can be high.

There really iusnt much money to be made in it, if all goes well with every litter yes some profits can be seen. As soon as you have medical problems with a litter it fast eats up any profits from the previous litter. This has been my experience anyways

Ian

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by rottie

When factoring cost remember to figure vet bills. Not just for the litter but the breeding parents as well. Also eventually you will have bitches that are past the breeding age,these dogs as they ag are going to have health issues just like us humans.
This is where some of the costs are never recovered ,she still needs a good loving home, yet her maintainence costs can be high.

There really iusnt much money to be made in it, if all goes well with every litter yes some profits can be seen. As soon as you have medical problems with a litter it fast eats up any profits from the previous litter. This has been my experience anyways

Ian

Granted, but let's look at Got Juice's example. 17 pups = $46,000 gross before expenses. Is there only one female in the group? Lets say there are 4, so pushing $200,000 now. Times 10 years, $.2,000,000.00. If she only has 2 females, or they have half as many pups, it is down to a paltry MILLION DOLLARS over 10 years. Puppy mills exist because they pay for mansions with very little expense, compared to the price of the animals.

Or, the single female, averaging 10 pups per year, x 10 years is just over a quarter of a million dollars. Let's say half of that went to vet's expenses and food, and still $125,000 for a single female, for only 10 pups per year. What if she/they breed twice a year?

The numbers are staggering, and since I started the thread I have been looking online, plus talking to a friend that works for a Vetrinary Clinic here, whom I do work for. Barring serious health issues, accidents or inidentals, there is NO WAY that only $450.00 is made per pup. Triple that or more off $2700.00 from what I have heard.

The point of the thread, was that puppy mills are a license to make money, they are rampant in the States, and I think that with all the new TV shows on Discovery and the like covering mills, we are going to see a lot more of it in Canada. The honest sincere caring profession breeders like the ones answering above (thanks, by the way) likely cringe everytime they see a show like that, not only for the cruelty but for the fact that they know this is going to happen here.

I started as a hobby doing metal fabricating, welding, machining, repairs because I was tired of paying $125.00-$250.00 per hour for work I know I could do myself. It was simple, buy out a company, get all the equipment home, learn to use it and get to work.

If all you have to do is buy a breeding pair of dogs, then keep adding females, well I think you see the problem. It is disgusting what these people do to these animals, again of course responsible breeders not included in this picture.