Pike Leaders

[cube]

Originally Posted by EZM

I would say 30lb is way, way too light for pike.

The way to look at it, in my opinion is simple ...... use a 80lb fluorocarbon leader and you won't have bite throughs. The 80lb flouro is still thinner and are more supple compared to any steel or titanium leader of equal test strength .... not to mention all the other benefits of fluoro.

I'm pretty sure my titanium leader is thinner and probably more supple than your heavy flouro leader material. I have never had a bite through on steel or titanium but have had a couple on flouro leader material. My titanium leader, I would hazard, costs less as well in the long run as most titanium's last me a full season or more (I have one now going on 21/2 yrs).

To be honest though I do have both and use both. I have a couple of tip ups going now for a few years. One with flouro and one with steel trace or titanium. Some days one seems to do better than the other but the next day the other seems to out perform so they are neck in neck today.

Eg last weekend the flouro leader tip-up caught 3 and the steel leader tip-up caught 1. But the next day the flouro caught 3 and the steel leader caught 8

Hope you have a great season with what ever you use.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by EZM

I would say 30lb is way, way too light for pike.

The way to look at it, in my opinion is simple ...... use a 80lb fluorocarbon leader and you won't have bite throughs. The 80lb flouro is still thinner and are more supple compared to any steel or titanium leader of equal test strength .... not to mention all the other benefits of fluoro.

But you dont need the same strength with steel or titanium. Pike will never bite through a 10 let alone 40 pound steel/titanium leader. But I get what your sayin.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by cube

I'm pretty sure my titanium leader is thinner and probably more supple than your heavy flouro leader material. I have never had a bite through on steel or titanium but have had a couple on flouro leader material. My titanium leader, I would hazard, costs less as well in the long run as most titanium's last me a full season or more (I have one now going on 21/2 yrs).

To be honest though I do have both and use both. I have a couple of tip ups going now for a few years. One with flouro and one with steel trace or titanium. Some days one seems to do better than the other but the next day the other seems to out perform so they are neck in neck today.

Eg last weekend the flouro leader tip-up caught 3 and the steel leader tip-up caught 1. But the next day the flouro caught 3 and the steel leader caught 8

Hope you have a great season with what ever you use.

Agree.

[scel]

Wow. EZM

You need to learn how to use bold. That is your first lesson. Bold is like caps-lock. Caps-lock is like shouting. Politicians and maniacs have a carte-blanche on shouting---a smart person can tune them out. Let’s focus on your shouting. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are neither a politician nor a maniac.

Originally Posted by EZM

As far as I'm concerned there is zero added risk in using a proper fluorocarbon leader material with proper swivels and snaps versus titanium…. I have never lost a pike using fluorocarbon leaders

You do not understand how risk works. Risk is based a set of parameters and possible outcomes. While I have also never lost a fish using fluoro leaders, many of my friends have. You do not add risk by making a choice. You acquire a different set of risks vs rewards. Let’s think this through.

Empirical evidence shows that pike cannot bite through titanium/steel leaders.
Empirical evidence shows that pike can bite through fluoro/mono leaders. However, fluoro is difficult to see, but not impossible. As the leader material gets thicker, it becomes more visible.

In the risks vs rewards scenarios, it is could be more likely to catch more pike use a straight fluoro leader over a titanium leader, but titanium leaders will not be severed from a bite.

Originally Posted by EZM

and frankly ..... I call BS ..... Fluorocarbon leader is absolutely the best product you can use and is superior in every way.

It is clearly not superior in every way. Sure, there are advantages. There is no way a pike will bite through a modern 25lb titanium leader. Anything less than 40lb fluoro leader material is at risk of being severed by pike. This statement, in its present form, is false.

Originally Posted by EZM

To each his own. But after trying both - I will never use steel or titanium for pike or musky again. Absolutely going backwards in technology and giving up significant advantages if I do.

Originally Posted by EZM

The way to look at it, in my opinion is simple ...... use a 80lb fluorocarbon leader and you won't have bite throughs. The 80lb flouro is still thinner and are more supple compared to any steel or titanium leader of equal test strength .... not to mention all the other benefits of fluoro.

First of all, this is so utterly untrue.

Actually, nickel titanium alloy leader material is more technologically advanced over fluorocarbon. NiTi leader is significantly smaller than equal weight test fluoro leader material. New NiTi leader material is supple enough to tie. Without a micrometer, it is hard to tell, but 40lb NiTi is about the same diameter as 20lb fluoro line (not leader material, which is thicker and stiffer than running line). Search Knot2Kinky.

Here is how to make the most technologically advanced leader for pike which uses both titanium bite material as well as fluorocarbon leader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgBx0vjr6mg

It is not critical to use much NiTi. I use about 10-20 cm (i.e.about the width of the mouth biggest pike that you expect to catch if it completely misses the book). A 10 kg pike has about 20 cm bite width.

On my fly rod, I use 15 cm Knot2Kinky bite tippet to a 1.2m 20kg fluorocarbon leader. Use a perfection loop knot at the end to the leader for the loop-to-loop connection to the fly line. I like the Mustad Fastach size 1 clips for the terminal tackle because it easily passes through the rod guides for pack up. The Mustad clip is the break point in this system.

On my spin rod, I use 15 cm Knot2Kinky to 2m 15kg fluorocarbon leader. Using an Albright knot, I tie the fluorocarbon leader to 20kg braid. Again, I use the Mustad Fastach size 1 clips for the terminal tackle. With this set up, there is no swivels or bumps. Using knots, the line/leader can easily pass through rod guides and collects nicely on the reel when it is time to pack up.

Originally Posted by EZM

..... BUT it's not invisible under water

We all like BUTS, we cannot lie. You other anglers can’t deny…

Fluoro is not invisible. The reason why fluoro is harder to see is because its index of refraction is close to water, but it is not the same. As the line/leader diameter gets bigger, it becomes more visible. Here is something that all fly anglers know...pike are NOT leader-shy, especially compared to trout.

I believe the small amount of glint from 10cm of titanium bite tipped will serve as an attractant over being a deterrent. With the set up I describe above, you get the protection of the wire, and the stealth of smaller diameter fluoro.

This fall with a fishing trip to Northern Sask, with my fly rod and the setup explained above, I easily outfished the other 4 guys using gear. The only hooks I have lost were due to epic snags on Canadian shield rocks. Because my fly line is 20lb, I would expect to lose a few hooks---the breakpoint is at the snap.

Originally Posted by EZM

Might as well tie my shoe laces together and enter a race.

Here is how shoes work…
Shoes come in pairs. Most people need one for each foot. Each shoe has its own laces. You tie the 2 laces from the left shoe to each other. Likewise, you tie the two laces from the right shoe together. I would recommend tying your laces together before entering any sort of running or walking race.

[anthony5]

scel, I agree with your steel, titanium vs Flourocarbon leader comparison, but that was,(I think) a little harsh on a fellow angler the usually has some pretty good advice for new anglers looking to increase their luck at fishing, open water or hard water.😬

[EZM]

Originally Posted by scel

Wow. EZM

You need to learn how to use bold. That is your first lesson. Bold is like caps-lock. Caps-lock is like shouting. Politicians and maniacs have a carte-blanche on shouting---a smart person can tune them out. Let’s focus on your shouting. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are neither a politician nor a maniac.



You do not understand how risk works. Risk is based a set of parameters and possible outcomes. While I have also never lost a fish using fluoro leaders, many of my friends have. You do not add risk by making a choice. You acquire a different set of risks vs rewards. Let’s think this through.

Empirical evidence shows that pike cannot bite through titanium/steel leaders.
Empirical evidence shows that pike can bite through fluoro/mono leaders. However, fluoro is difficult to see, but not impossible. As the leader material gets thicker, it becomes more visible.

In the risks vs rewards scenarios, it is could be more likely to catch more pike use a straight fluoro leader over a titanium leader, but titanium leaders will not be severed from a bite.



It is clearly not superior in every way. Sure, there are advantages. There is no way a pike will bite through a modern 25lb titanium leader. Anything less than 40lb fluoro leader material is at risk of being severed by pike. This statement, in its present form, is false.





First of all, this is so utterly untrue.

Actually, nickel titanium alloy leader material is more technologically advanced over fluorocarbon. NiTi leader is significantly smaller than equal weight test fluoro leader material. New NiTi leader material is supple enough to tie. Without a micrometer, it is hard to tell, but 40lb NiTi is about the same diameter as 20lb fluoro line (not leader material, which is thicker and stiffer than running line). Search Knot2Kinky.

Here is how to make the most technologically advanced leader for pike which uses both titanium bite material as well as fluorocarbon leader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgBx0vjr6mg

It is not critical to use much NiTi. I use about 10-20 cm (i.e.about the width of the mouth biggest pike that you expect to catch if it completely misses the book). A 10 kg pike has about 20 cm bite width.

On my fly rod, I use 15 cm Knot2Kinky bite tippet to a 1.2m 20kg fluorocarbon leader. Use a perfection loop knot at the end to the leader for the loop-to-loop connection to the fly line. I like the Mustad Fastach size 1 clips for the terminal tackle because it easily passes through the rod guides for pack up. The Mustad clip is the break point in this system.

On my spin rod, I use 15 cm Knot2Kinky to 2m 15kg fluorocarbon leader. Using an Albright knot, I tie the fluorocarbon leader to 20kg braid. Again, I use the Mustad Fastach size 1 clips for the terminal tackle. With this set up, there is no swivels or bumps. Using knots, the line/leader can easily pass through rod guides and collects nicely on the reel when it is time to pack up.



We all like BUTS, we cannot lie. You other anglers can’t deny…

Fluoro is not invisible. The reason why fluoro is harder to see is because its index of refraction is close to water, but it is not the same. As the line/leader diameter gets bigger, it becomes more visible. Here is something that all fly anglers know...pike are NOT leader-shy, especially compared to trout.

I believe the small amount of glint from 10cm of titanium bite tipped will serve as an attractant over being a deterrent. With the set up I describe above, you get the protection of the wire, and the stealth of smaller diameter fluoro.

This fall with a fishing trip to Northern Sask, with my fly rod and the setup explained above, I easily outfished the other 4 guys using gear. The only hooks I have lost were due to epic snags on Canadian shield rocks. Because my fly line is 20lb, I would expect to lose a few hooks---the breakpoint is at the snap.



Here is how shoes work…
Shoes come in pairs. Most people need one for each foot. Each shoe has its own laces. You tie the 2 laces from the left shoe to each other. Likewise, you tie the two laces from the right shoe together. I would recommend tying your laces together before entering any sort of running or walking race.

I was using bold to highlight some important points when giving my best advice to other forum members - I was certainly not yelling at them. I try my best to contribute here and enjoy this forum as it provides me with lots of opportunity to share and learn.

I do, however, really appreciate the contribution of inserting technical information, largely irrelevant to the main point, to dazzle the rest of us simple folk while elevating yourself (in a world where you are intellectually superior to all others) and sprinkling in a few unicorns, fabrications and fairytales as well as a poem or two. Kim Jong Il would be proud. Heck .... I`m proud of you ...... that was nice work !!!

Welcome aboard.

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Personally, I would not use less than 40 fluoro leader material for pike. And bigger is better. I prefer 60 or 80.
Also use longer 18-24 inch leader if going after pike.

Depends on what lake... maybe for Chestermere 15/20 lb would be ok.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by drhu22

Depends on what lake... maybe for Chestermere 15/20 lb would be ok.

You are right. Should have said for mature pike. Or Pike over 20 inches.lol

[Rabdo]

I made the switch to fluorocarbon leader about 2 years ago. EZM actually taught me how to make my own leader (thanks EZM)
I made one leader, and have been using it for 2 years, summer and winter. I haven't changed it. I don't even know how many fish I've caught on this single leader in that time. Hundreds and hundreds of pike, small and big. My plan is to keep using it until it fails me. You could say I'm a believer in fluorocarbon leaders now...

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Rabdo

I made the switch to fluorocarbon leader about 2 years ago. EZM actually taught me how to make my own leader (thanks EZM)
I made one leader, and have been using it for 2 years, summer and winter. I haven't changed it. I don't even know how many fish I've caught on this single leader in that time. Hundreds and hundreds of pike, small and big. My plan is to keep using it until it fails me. You could say I'm a believer in fluorocarbon leaders now...

I am glad I could help.

I have had pretty much the same results, as well as others that use the same weight line and leader tying procedure.

I have a few leaders that are years and years old and have not had one single failure. Likely hundreds, if not thousands of pike ranging from hammer handles to 20lb class fish with zero issues.

Fluorocarbon is my preferred choice now ...... I haven't been back to steel since.