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01-04-2016, 11:03 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So what don't I get ? Please explain it
And you didn't answer my question ? You said you didn't pick a zone with a 17 year wait to strengthen your point. So why did you use the zone with the longest wait in the entire province ? Why didn't you use any other zone ?
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WTF??? My time is wasted on you.
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01-04-2016, 11:15 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
WTF??? My time is wasted on you.
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So you can't answer the question ?
It's a pretty simple one !
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01-04-2016, 11:17 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
I don't need to strengthen my point at all. I used that zone to make it easier for the slow ones in the class to get the point.
I guess it didn't work.
17 -1
Let me repeat
17-1
Get it?
It's nice that you realize that it takes a "sucker" to use the services of an outfitter.
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Here it is again in case you forgot what you said.
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01-04-2016, 11:22 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,153
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LOL. keep digging.
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01-04-2016, 11:30 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
LOL. keep digging.
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LOL. Right, sucks getting caught spewing BS doesn't it.
You guys should all get together and start an anti outfitters club ! You can all sit in a circle and cry about how much life sucks because of us
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01-04-2016, 11:34 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,718
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How do outfitters survive in states that don't allow non res to jump the draw? Lots of states require the non res to draw tags as well, some are guaranteed every year, some take 4 years, others take 15+'years.
Also, I still don't see why outfitters can't guide residents with tags. Lots of outfitters in the US will guide their own residents. In Alberta you can't even get a reply.
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01-04-2016, 11:40 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Most people are smart enough to figure out how to build up priority points with no chance of drawing the tag, without using the 999 option. After all, many of us did just that before the 999 option existed.
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Yes, there are always those who will play the system to gain an advantage,,,,
That's actually a pretty easy fix, my friend,,,,
Build priority by zone rather than by draw code,,, and only allow group applications where each applicant has the same priority.
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01-04-2016, 11:40 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
LOL. Right, sucks getting caught spewing BS doesn't it.
You guys should all get together and start an anti outfitters club ! You can all sit in a circle and cry about how much life sucks because of us
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I can't help your problem. I don't think it can be fixed on line. Sorry.
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01-04-2016, 11:45 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
I have no clue what I said before so I'll just avoid your questions
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Seems legit !
Last edited by Torkdiesel; 01-04-2016 at 11:58 PM.
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01-04-2016, 11:49 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,153
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Reminds me of a John Wayne quote:
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."
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01-04-2016, 11:54 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
Many people don't realize how 999 can in certain circumstances actually reduce certain wait times....Every time someone enters 999 it potentially allows another Hunter to get drawn before them.
LC
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Lefty,,, in the short term yes, I will give you that,,, but over the long term there will be a "market correction".
The current use of 999 along with the ability to apply for a number of special draws each year encourages and rewards priority hoarding in multiple draws. You cannot expect the stockpiling of priority points by increasing numbers of hunters in multiple draws to not have an impact when those chickens finally come home to roost.
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01-04-2016, 11:56 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deerguy
How do outfitters survive in states that don't allow non res to jump the draw? Lots of states require the non res to draw tags as well, some are guaranteed every year, some take 4 years, others take 15+'years.
Also, I still don't see why outfitters can't guide residents with tags. Lots of outfitters in the US will guide their own residents. In Alberta you can't even get a reply.
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Landowners tags keep most of them going, the ones with money that can buy them anyway.
Other buy up the access rights to private land and get by that way.
I've hunted in a couple states and the outfitters have been mostly scrapping by, certainly not thriving business wise.
Some have old family money and giant parcels of land so they get enough tags to survive on.
Indian reservations are big all through the west.
I had a couple buddies hunt Colorado for elk. The outfitter had 48 hunters through his camp in 3 weeks. They killed 4 elk, nothing bigger then a 5 point. I doubt his repeat client numbers are high.
There is a reason why people are waiting 2-3 years to hunt with the best outfitters in the best areas in Canada. A big reason is you actually get to hunt, when you want and can hunt, not in 10-15 years, maybe.
There are some Alberta outfitters that will guide residents, I took out two guys 6 years ago. They paid 10K each to hunt, the same as NR did at the time. They promised to never come back and they didn't. Lots of others asked but would never pay the price I was asking.
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01-05-2016, 12:01 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
Reminds me of a John Wayne quote:
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."
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I give up. You've beaten me with just being a complete idiot unable to answer a question.
I'm sure you'll quote something now totally off topic and equally stupid
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01-05-2016, 12:22 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Landowners tags keep most of them going, the ones with money that can buy them anyway.
Other buy up the access rights to private land and get by that way.
I've hunted in a couple states and the outfitters have been mostly scrapping by, certainly not thriving business wise.
Some have old family money and giant parcels of land so they get enough tags to survive on.
Indian reservations are big all through the west.
I had a couple buddies hunt Colorado for elk. The outfitter had 48 hunters through his camp in 3 weeks. They killed 4 elk, nothing bigger then a 5 point. I doubt his repeat client numbers are high.
There is a reason why people are waiting 2-3 years to hunt with the best outfitters in the best areas in Canada. A big reason is you actually get to hunt, when you want and can hunt, not in 10-15 years, maybe.
There are some Alberta outfitters that will guide residents, I took out two guys 6 years ago. They paid 10K each to hunt, the same as NR did at the time. They promised to never come back and they didn't. Lots of others asked but would never pay the price I was asking.
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This is interesting, thank you for the honest reply.
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01-05-2016, 12:49 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So what don't I get ? Please explain it
And you didn't answer my question ? You said you didn't pick a zone with a 17 year wait to strengthen your point. So why did you use the zone with the longest wait in the entire province ? Why didn't you use any other zone ?
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What he's trying to say is.
As a non res he could buy the tag from the outfitter 17 years in a row
As a res he will only get one tag every 17 years.
Get it
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01-05-2016, 12:51 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,153
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Can anyone in their right mind tell me why a non resident of Alberta, other than a treaty indian, should have more opportunity to harvest a big game animal in Alberta than a resident???
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01-05-2016, 01:52 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Foothills
Posts: 2,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
Can anyone in their right mind tell me why a non resident of Alberta, other than a treaty indian, should have more opportunity to harvest a big game animal in Alberta than a resident???
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Nope, I sure cant. Why? Because it shouldn't happen, period.
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01-05-2016, 06:22 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 3,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So what don't I get ? Please explain it
And you didn't answer my question ? You said you didn't pick a zone with a 17 year wait to strengthen your point. So why did you use the zone with the longest wait in the entire province ? Why didn't you use any other zone ?
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He probly only has a P14 and hes annoyed
__________________
Dont sweat the petty stuff, and dont pet the sweaty stuff
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01-05-2016, 06:40 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikebreath
Lefty,,, in the short term yes, I will give you that,,, but over the long term there will be a "market correction".
The current use of 999 along with the ability to apply for a number of special draws each year encourages and rewards priority hoarding in multiple draws. You cannot expect the stockpiling of priority points by increasing numbers of hunters in multiple draws to not have an impact when those chickens finally come home to roost.
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You have to look at it differently...
The increased number of hunters in the draw and low tag allocation is the issue! Not the 999 folks. Every year they choose 999 they are opting out of being chosen. Which allows someone else to draw. If a person 999's themselves out of the draw for many years they may pass on several tags they could have held.
This helps the lower priorities! Then when they do draw, it's one tag and the priority resets!
The biggest impact is the number of people in the draw NOT those who choose to 999.
999 actually helps! Because without it you have more people actively entering the draws and more people who don't plan and more tags not getting used, because there will come a point they HAVE TO PULL A TAG. Where as a 999 could opt out of the draw forever and never get pulled. If they had to enter with no 999 option everyone (with certain exceptions) would get pulled eventually.
Certain draw are nearly mathematically impossible to pull now because of sheer Hunter numbers and low tag allocations. No one will live to 300-400 years old which is how long you need if you want a 437 sheep tag. If you just start entering now it would take you that long.
Because even in the old system with no 999 people would always enter to increase a priority point and some would get surprised by being picked when they didn't want to. If you 999 you can't be chosen.
If I wait 15 years for a tag that normally would take 7 don't I deserve a tag after waiting 15 years? If I don't want to go earlier, 999 allows someone else a tag that I could have pulled.
LC
__________________
Last edited by Lefty-Canuck; 01-05-2016 at 06:53 AM.
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01-05-2016, 07:02 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,127
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Simple
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
Can anyone in their right mind tell me why a non resident of Alberta, other than a treaty indian, should have more opportunity to harvest a big game animal in Alberta than a resident???
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Because with the currents regulations a non resident can pay to have that luxury.
I am an Alberta resident and I could win the Lottery on Friday and still not be able to purchase the same luxury as a non resident.
Stupid rules if you ask me; not much of an "Alberta Advantage".... unless of course you are not from here.
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01-05-2016, 07:04 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyd
He probly only has a P14 and hes annoyed
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I have no where near a P14 and I'm annoyed!
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01-05-2016, 07:17 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So you can't answer the question ?
It's a pretty simple one !
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If I was making the same point as Huntwat I would have also quote the zone with P17 for moose. In doing so it shows how bad it really is.
Have they ever considered having residents apply for tags a year in advance. So this spring you would apply for the 2017/18 seasons. What ever is left over from the resident draws, give those tags to the outfitters along with whatever general tags. This would give the outfitters 1 year notice to sell there tag inventory and plan accordingly.
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01-05-2016, 07:48 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
You have to look at it differently...
The increased number of hunters in the draw and low tag allocation is the issue! Not the 999 folks. Every year they choose 999 they are opting out of being chosen. Which allows someone else to draw. If a person 999's themselves out of the draw for many years they may pass on several tags they could have held.
This helps the lower priorities! Then when they do draw, it's one tag and the priority resets!
The biggest impact is the number of people in the draw NOT those who choose to 999.
999 actually helps! Because without it you have more people actively entering the draws and more people who don't plan and more tags not getting used, because there will come a point they HAVE TO PULL A TAG. Where as a 999 could opt out of the draw forever and never get pulled. If they had to enter with no 999 option everyone (with certain exceptions) would get pulled eventually.
Certain draw are nearly mathematically impossible to pull now because of sheer Hunter numbers and low tag allocations. No one will live to 300-400 years old which is how long you need if you want a 437 sheep tag. If you just start entering now it would take you that long.
Because even in the old system with no 999 people would always enter to increase a priority point and some would get surprised by being picked when they didn't want to. If you 999 you can't be chosen.
If I wait 15 years for a tag that normally would take 7 don't I deserve a tag after waiting 15 years? If I don't want to go earlier, 999 allows someone else a tag that I could have pulled.
LC
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I have used a P10 to draw a tag that most other people drew with a P5, so in effect, I could have drawn it twice in that time period if I hadn't used the 999 option. Then after I drew the tag once, I started over again. So the end result is that I am only drawing the tag half as often as the people that don't use the 999 option, so I only have half of the effect on wait times as someone that tries to draw every year. It's simple math, but some people either can't comprehend math, or they just want an excuse to blame for the longer wait times.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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01-05-2016, 08:00 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta
Posts: 1,059
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Exactly, the 999 allows you to draw a tag when you can use it, without the 999 option I would still be entering the draws I do now and in some instance would end up burning the tag if I was unable to go. Draw time is shortened for others because of this.
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01-05-2016, 08:05 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,798
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Exactly...simple math, once you can wrap your head around it the light bulb goes on!
Don't blame 999 for your long wait times, thank 999 because your wait could be longer!
LC
__________________
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01-05-2016, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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For those of you that want to spend $10K to hunt an outfitters license here in Albera and can't then take your money and go buy a hunt in BC or somewhere else. It's going to cost you near the same and you will have a fully guided hunt. Sorry to say but even if you got rid of outfitter tags it isn't going to make your wait times any better and you will still be Bitchin about it
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01-05-2016, 09:09 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stringer
What he's trying to say is.
As a non res he could buy the tag from the outfitter 17 years in a row
As a res he will only get one tag every 17 years.
Get it
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Oh course I get it.
My point was why would he use the worst case zone in the whole province instead of what the average would be ? Say 4-1
But I know why, because it sounds better when he uses the worst case zone
Just like when they point out the outfitter allocations are above 10% in 14 different WMUs and scream how the system doesn't work, but leave out the 163 WMUs where the allocation percentage is bellow 10%. They don't mention that because it doesn't strengthen their argument.
Get it !
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01-05-2016, 09:11 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Oh course I get it.
My point was why would he use the worst case zone in the whole province instead of what the average would be ? Say 4-1
But I know why, because it sounds better when he uses the worst case zone
Just like when they point out the outfitter allocations are above 10% in 14 different WMUs and scream how the system doesn't work, but leave out the 163 WMUs where the allocation percentage is bellow 10%. They don't mention that because it doesn't strengthen their argument.
Get it !
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Having an Alberta resident wait 4 years is too long, when a non resident can buy a hunt with no waiting.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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01-05-2016, 09:28 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Having an Alberta resident wait 4 years is too long, when a non resident can buy a hunt with no waiting.
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Well that is your opinion elkhunter. Every province across Canada that I know of sets aside a certain percentage of non resident tags that are on draw for residents for the outfitting industry. I don't think everybody else should be willing to share except for Alberta, but again I guess you guys don't care. You don't hunt anywhere else and you want Alberta all for yourselves.
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01-05-2016, 09:32 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: edmonton
Posts: 11,434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deerguy
How do outfitters survive in states that don't allow non res to jump the draw? Lots of states require the non res to draw tags as well, some are guaranteed every year, some take 4 years, others take 15+'years.
Also, I still don't see why outfitters can't guide residents with tags. Lots of outfitters in the US will guide their own residents. In Alberta you can't even get a reply.
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You know Deerguy, I also thought that Outfitters/Guides could not guide AB residents and got flamed for it by the ussual suspects. Turns out that they can guide AB residents as long as the resident has thier own tag.
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