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  #211  
Old 01-09-2014, 08:04 AM
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I was hunting south of Nordegg in September and in the area where I was hunting, I saw a lot of whitetails last year. This year there was not even a sign of a deer. There were horses everywhere. On all the game trails, all I saw was horse sign. I constantly heard crashing around in the bush and when I investigated, it was always a group of horses. One group of 3 horses followed for me on a walk I took into the woods that covered many kilometers. One evening when I was sitting on a nice clearing, a herd of 7 horses wandered around all evening and no game was in the area as a result. It was pretty upsetting that this impacted my hunt. I dont know what the solution should be. Culling, capturing, whatever. I do not know what the best way would be. All I know is, it sure made my time in the woods frustrating yet also interesting. They sure are beautiful. Here are some photos. Click to zoom in.

FeralHorse1.jpg

FeralHorse2.jpg
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  #212  
Old 01-09-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
There is nothing scientific nor unbiased in Notzke's publications on Feral Horses. She provides a great source of misinformation for those who desire to baffle through H.S.


So much for FishGunner manning up to losing the bet. No surprise....



AFGA is very active in a working group attempting to achieve a Feral Horse Management Plan. Meetings are ongoing and new updates should be out this spring/summer.
Thanks for the update on the AFGA Walking Buffalo, much appreciated. Glad to hear progress is being made.

I think the goalposts for that bet keep moving.
  #213  
Old 01-09-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by evil72 View Post
Thankyou: Caleb for digging up the cold hard facts!! Kudos to you sir!

Thankyou too: Kauna now we might get some where! Well done!

I think i will bring up something to my local A.F.&G., to maybe take to the Alberta conference.

Thanx again: Evil72
Shoot Lots & Shoot Well:
I believe you and Caleb should really get together and present ESRD with your solution proposal ideas and the majority of opinions from here that require some answers...what's wrong in even asking what their plans are ? keep going....
  #214  
Old 01-09-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roughneck Country View Post
Just wondering... I know you can't shoot them and leave them, but can people shoot them and eat them under the current rules?
Nope.

(See link at this post)
  #215  
Old 01-09-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jacenbeers View Post
There were horses everywhere. On all the game trails, all I saw was horse sign.
I had a similar experience - hunted for days, covering a lot of ground and didn't see anything besides horses and horse sign until I moved to a different area.

Whether that means the horses pushed the other animals out, I can't say for sure... But it did leave an impression on me.
  #216  
Old 01-09-2014, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kauna View Post
I believe you and Caleb should really get together and present ESRD with your solution proposal ideas and the majority of opinions from here that require some answers...what's wrong in even asking what their plans are ? keep going....
Kauna,

As happy as I would be to contribute, it sounds like ESRD is already partway through a stakeholder consultation process. See WB's link:
http://esrd.alberta.ca/lands-forests...Apr26-2013.pdf

AFGA is part of this process, and they are proposing sensible management of the population until we better understand the impact of free-roaming horses on the landscape. Seems like they are doing their job of representing outdoorsmen and women well. No complaints from me.

I am curious what the status of the 2013/2014 winter roundup is and how many horses will be trapped this year, if any. That would tell us a lot about where ESRD might be headed.
  #217  
Old 01-09-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
I suggest you do your research first.


I'll pay Potty your debt if you can prove that the Palliser expedition or any "first white contact" came across millions of horses.


If you fail to prove your claim, then you have to "stop the leak of the hot air".


Deal?
This is the bet , the fact that WB does not accept multiple references is no concern. for the new viewer post 160 from Wikipedia. Post 106 from canadian geographic both reference horse poulations in the millions on the western plains. 106 giving a time frame in line with my questioned statement. At no time is peer reviewed or a scientific journal requested by WB . furthermore I have shown recorded horse populations within the area and as close as 50 fifty miles from todays poulation. Henday and macdougl with yhe first police forces north of the oldman drainage. ????? Im not a research boffin im a guy that enjoys reading history other than the Kelsey reference (which I have not looked into but will) I have won the bet mr WB simply will not accept my references ,not my problem.
  #218  
Old 01-09-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
This is the bet , the fact that WB does not accept multiple references is no concern. for the new viewer post 160 from Wikipedia. Post 106 from canadian geographic both reference horse poulations in the millions on the western plains. 106 giving a time frame in line with my questioned statement. At no time is peer reviewed or a scientific journal requested by WB . furthermore I have shown recorded horse populations within the area and as close as 50 fifty miles from todays poulation. Henday and macdougl with yhe first police forces north of the oldman drainage. ????? Im not a research boffin im a guy that enjoys reading history other than the Kelsey reference (which I have not looked into but will) I have won the bet mr WB simply will not accept my references ,not my problem.
Well, How can anyone disagree with stuff like this? amazing imagination or surging estrogen levels. I know someone near and dear to me that debates the same way. She's right because she says she's right.
And she may well be, but her "facts" don't apply to this issue.
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  #219  
Old 01-09-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
This is the bet , the fact that WB does not accept multiple references is no concern. for the new viewer post 160 from Wikipedia. Post 106 from canadian geographic both reference horse poulations in the millions on the western plains. 106 giving a time frame in line with my questioned statement. At no time is peer reviewed or a scientific journal requested by WB . furthermore I have shown recorded horse populations within the area and as close as 50 fifty miles from todays poulation. Henday and macdougl with yhe first police forces north of the oldman drainage. ????? Im not a research boffin im a guy that enjoys reading history other than the Kelsey reference (which I have not looked into but will) I have won the bet mr WB simply will not accept my references ,not my problem.
Fishguts ...have u actually ever rode a horse ..or is this all HORSE CHIT from you ...time for you to go home, shut it off , close your eyes , or go and volunteer for the roundup and take some home .....enough
  #220  
Old 01-09-2014, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kauna View Post
Fishguts ...have u actually ever rode a horse ..or is this all HORSE CHIT from you ...time for you to go home, shut it off , close your eyes , or go and volunteer for the roundup and take some home .....enough
Ahh insult thats a strong point , ive actually owned a couple and served in a true Calvary reg. With a stable of aprox 80 horse between privately owned and the regiments own. The Greys , before my time but of some note .
After multiple outside references to support my position. it is quite clear very few open minds exist on this issue. I on the other hand have not discounted any contributers posts and simply offer my own . Off to read up on Kelsey. oh and yes hendy walked some traveled on water extensively. seen a number of horse at the area of pine lake -innsfail .then returned the way he came . So as of aprox oct 1754 we have horse in one of drainages they reside in to day . Wierd, historical documents that none of you accepts yet it is concerned fact. Hmmm telling. now pouge mahone.
  #221  
Old 01-09-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
This is the bet , the fact that WB does not accept multiple references is no concern. for the new viewer post 160 from Wikipedia. Post 106 from canadian geographic both reference horse poulations in the millions on the western plains. 106 giving a time frame in line with my questioned statement. At no time is peer reviewed or a scientific journal requested by WB . furthermore I have shown recorded horse populations within the area and as close as 50 fifty miles from todays poulation. Henday and macdougl with yhe first police forces north of the oldman drainage. ????? Im not a research boffin im a guy that enjoys reading history other than the Kelsey reference (which I have not looked into but will) I have won the bet mr WB simply will not accept my references ,not my problem.
Sorry FG, your references are unsubstantiated factoids, not facts. You are obviously keen and smart enough to do way more than most horse-lovers to support your position, so I'll give you some advice. Go to the primary sources or use highly respected, well-referenced secondary sources. Magazine articles and wikipedia simply don't count unless they provide a reference to the source for their information.

I can't find much about this "three million horses" phrase anywhere else, I really don't know what it is based on. You are still on the hook for that bet.
  #222  
Old 01-09-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
Off to read up on Kelsey. oh and yes hendy walked some traveled on water extensively. seen a number of horse at the area of pine lake -innsfail .then returned the way he came . So as of aprox oct 1754 we have horse in one of drainages they reside in to day . Wierd, historical documents that none of you accepts yet it is concerned fact. Hmmm telling. now pouge mahone.
Again, last I checked, Pine Lake and Innisfail are not in the foothills. Close on a map, but not the same.

I don't at all doubt that free-roaming Indian horses and escapees would have been common on the plains once horses made their way north in the 1700s. But we are not talking about prairie horses in this discussion.

You do realize you are arguing for a species that is by definition feral, since all stock, even mustangs, are descended from European horses. You claim they were part of the landscape, ignoring the fact that they were only present in North America in any large number for perhaps 200 years. And this at a time that coincided with a huge shift in the North American ecosystem.

The last true wild horses that you point to lived here about 10,000 years ago. Which means after they went extinct North America's ecosystems adapted to the lack of horses for 9,600 years or so. So I don't see why we need to go back so far to try to define a "natural" ecosystem.

What's next, want some camels and llamas out competing for forage too? Hey, they're native to North America too, and they went extinct about the same time as wild horses, so why not? Hey why not bring back lions, we used to have real lions here too.

When horses were last part of a natural ecosystem here, they were preyed upon by saber-tooth tigers, dire wolves, short-faced bears, and American lions.

Face it, horses don't belong in the wild in Canada. We lack effective, affordable means to control them and they are a disruptive influence on an already disrupted landscape with struggling *valuable* native species. Perhaps when they figure out how to clone mammoths and saber-tooth tigers and make a "Pleistocene Park" somewhere horses will have a home in the wild. But Alberta's Eastern Slopes certainly do not need horses for any reason right now.
  #223  
Old 01-09-2014, 06:56 PM
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Hello:Fishgunner
There is no doubt to your ability to find sources to back your statements. But I also find it hard to believe an educated person(like yourself),would not be more willing to believe the facts that are being presented, to you by others on this thread. The others are putting forth facts from the last 20 years, not observations from some one that has been dead for more than a hundred years, or a biased Horse lover that knows little to nothing about the balance in nature. Just because something was observed in the past does not mean it was working then either! Red deer was called that due to Elk being there. Not Wild Horse, because there weren't any!
You, yourself said they were F. Horses! So what is your argument any ways? It is getting redundant!!!!
Regards: Evil72
Stick to Fishing Lots & Fish Well:Evil72
  #224  
Old 01-09-2014, 07:10 PM
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Hello: Fishgunner
One thing that you people(the defenders of F. Horses), better hope is that Swamp Fever or Horse Herpes is never found in , or spread to the F. Horse! If they are the F. Horse will have to be wiped from the face of Alberta, let alone managed. In the effort to protect the domestic stock of Canada, if not North America. Some of which is very valuable. If that happens there wouldn't even be any left for zoo's. At best where they belong!
Regards: Evil72
Shoot Lots & Shoot Well: Oops sorry I mean, oh forget it!:Evil72
  #225  
Old 01-09-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
When horses were last part of a natural ecosystem here, they were preyed upon by saber-tooth tigers, dire wolves, short-faced bears, and American lions.

Face it, horses don't belong in the wild in Canada. We lack effective, affordable means to control them and they are a disruptive influence on an already disrupted landscape with struggling *valuable* native species. Perhaps when they figure out how to clone mammoths and saber-tooth tigers and make a "Pleistocene Park" somewhere horses will have a home in the wild. But Alberta's Eastern Slopes certainly do not need horses for any reason right now.
Very well stated! And in 100% agreement. I was in 406 two seasons ago, and they were rampant. Too many, too ugly and simply need removal. End of story.
  #226  
Old 01-09-2014, 11:35 PM
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Could be a huge tourism tool if we caught a few herds and dyed them with zebra patterns and turn them loose by lake louise for the picture takers.
We could say we are the only place in north ameria that the elusive alberta wild zebra can be found.
  #227  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:34 AM
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Could be a huge tourism tool if we caught a few herds and dyed them with zebra patterns and turn them loose by lake louise for the picture takers.
We could say we are the only place in north ameria that the elusive alberta wild zebra can be found.
Now that is the kind of out-of-the-box thinking we need for this situation.
  #228  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
Sounds like a bunch of hungry elk had to wait till the hayburners were done


There is room for the wild horses. They are a legitimate part of Alberta's colourful history.

That being said, they were introduced. They are not the preferred prey of the natural predators and high on the pecking order as a user.

They need to be monitored and controlled.

As soon as someone at the Govt. figures this out.....they'll probably make themselves a pretty cushy career

Strongly disagree with that. The gov't knows all about the problem and won't touch it. Scared of the Wild Horse supporters and having the animal rights activists going nuts on them. Other than that, I totally agree with you
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  #229  
Old 01-10-2014, 12:39 PM
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i dont think its the feral horses causing any damage to elk habitat ,, if anything its the large cattle herds grazing , feral horse actually help the elk in the winter by pawing areas for feed , you guys should look at native hunting, wolves and over grazing first
  #230  
Old 01-10-2014, 03:17 PM
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Here's a solution. For the people who like the feral horses don't shoot them, and for the people who don't want them shoot them. You can complain all you want to the government they ain't gonna do nothing.
  #231  
Old 01-11-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bronc9239 View Post
i dont think its the feral horses causing any damage to elk habitat ,, if anything its the large cattle herds grazing , feral horse actually help the elk in the winter by pawing areas for feed , you guys should look at native hunting, wolves and over grazing first
It all depends on the area being effected. I think in areas with a lot of feed it might be easier for horse to move on and paw up new feed because it is more efficient. Also horses don't have hunting pressure and develop a pattern of leaving the area at first light. Because of this, elk will follow behind and and focus on eating rather than pawing up new feed. Not having hunting pressure definitely tilts the competition for feed in favor of the horses. When there is little winter feed in the area as is in the Foothills/ Mountainous MUs like the 400 series MUs , I think the horses are more likely to clean up leaving little or nothing for the elk before they paw up more feed, so the elk either work harder for feed, move out or starve due to the unlevel field of feed competition.

Also I see feral horse on the road side paying little attention to me as I drive or walk by. You won't see that happen if it was a herd of elk. There would be pressure to move out limiting their time to feed. With the increase of ohv / skidoo use in the winter (especially when guys leave the designated trails and ride all over the prime feeding/ bedding areas, the competition for feed is again tilted in favor of the feral horses. I'm not saying that ohv /skidoo use should be stopped, but with the growing population of people in Alberta, the pressure from offroad use is having a detrimental impact. I think that there are guys who don't care because they're here for the money and have fun, then move back to the province they came from and leave the locals with the mess to clean up.
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  #232  
Old 01-11-2014, 08:14 AM
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Seen a lot more damage by the ATV crowd than the few wild horses.
  #233  
Old 01-11-2014, 08:35 AM
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Another feral horse debate eh? Thin them out keep them as a manageable herd then every one is happy. Think sheepguide was in agreement with this as am I. Its that easy.

Get rid of the cattle in the 400's. Nasty critters. Creek damage from those critters is worse than quads.

Dang this is Alberta kill all the yotes, all the cougars all the gophers, all the badgers, all the wolves, all the horses. Did I miss a few?
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  #234  
Old 01-11-2014, 09:55 AM
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there was a live bounty in alberta for them last year
  #235  
Old 01-11-2014, 09:55 AM
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west of sundre not sure if it was province wide or still open
  #236  
Old 01-11-2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by raiderfan View Post
there was a live bounty in alberta for them last year
Frequently Asked Questions about Feral Horses
Background
Where did these horses come from?
Biologists call these horses feral because they are not true wildlife (i.e. they are not indigenous to the area). It is believed that most of these horses originated from domestic stock that was used in logging and mining operations in the early 1900's. Horses often escaped from these areas, and when the companies ceased operations, all the horses were turned loose.
These horses have now produced several generations of offspring and continue to inhabit the lands around the original operations west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House.
In the decades since then, many domestic horses have been either been illegally turned loose by their owners for free grazing, or have escaped from adjacent ranches or Indian Reserves into these areas. These horses may also have produced offspring.
What is the purpose of the Feral Horse Capture Program?
The Horse Capture Program together with the Stray Animals Act helps to protect these horses, and to ensure humane treatment in capturing them. Round-up and roping methods are approved capture methods. Snare traps are prohibited.
Those wishing to capture these horses must apply for a licence. All applicants are carefully screened to ensure that:
An operational plan is in place
A satisfactory level of experience in capturing horses is evident
A safe and humane method of capture is stated
The estimated number of horses in the proposed area is given
The intent of the program is to ensure humane treatment of the horses and to strike a balance between the desired long-term survival of feral horses, and protecting the public and natural resources from the impacts of these animals.
How long has the program been in place?
Legislation was passed in 1993 and the existing program was implemented shortly thereafter. An earlier permit system was in effect from 1962 to 1972 when about 2000 horses were removed over the span of the ten years. Some roundups were done as far back as the 1950's.
What happens to the horses after they have been captured?
All captured horses can be inspected to ensure that they are feral horses (i.e. no brands) and that the licence holder has adhered to the conditions of capture.
Livestock Identification Services Inspectors are contacted if any branded horses are captured.
Once inspected and the animals are removed, it is difficult to know for certain where they end up. Most are used by the licence holders for resale, as packhorses, or as rodeo stock. Some are domesticated for various recreational pursuits.
Location
Where are Feral Horses found in Alberta?
The majority of feral horses in Alberta are found in the foothills west of Rocky Mountain House and Sundre. Herds have also been found ranging south of there to the Alberta/U.S. border.
How many feral horses are currently found in the area west of Sundre?
Currently we estimate there are over 750 horses.
It is difficult to determine accurately since these animals exist over a very large area and are difficult to spot in the rugged terrain.
Until recently annual counts since 1982 (in the Sundre area) have shown no significant increase or decrease in the population. These counts are completed at the same time of year over the same area in order to keep the statistics unbiased.
How long have feral horses been around the area west of Sundre?
There have been horses in the area since the 1920's.
Some roundups were first done in the 1950's. Under the original permit system, about 2000 horses were removed from 1962 to 1972.
Today we estimate there are about 750 horses in the designated area. It is difficult to obtain a completely accurate count of the horses since most are found in forested areas.
Are there any concerns with feral horses in this area?
Our concern is for the safety of the public (especially along the highways in the area), for the survival of the horses, and for the protection of the environment.
SRD initiated a licence feral horse capture program due to substantial reports that horses were being captured in an inhumane manner, often by use of snares. The program has eliminated this concern. It has also helped to regulate horse numbers and maintain wildlife habitat.
Licensing
How much does a licence cost?
A licence costs $200.
The application fee is $50, and the licence holder must pay corral fees (if corrals are being used) at a rate of $50 per metal corral or $250 per wooden corral.
How do I obtain a licence?
Licences are issued from the Sustainable Resource Development (SRD) offices listed below. Application forms can be obtained online or at these locations and then submitted at these locations:
Clearwater Forest Area Office - Rocky Mountain House
Tel: 403 845-8250

Southern Rockies Area Office - Calgary
Tel: 403 297-8800
Is there a limit on the number of licences issued or the number of horses that can be removed?
ASRD has the ability to limit the number of licences issued.
Since the program's inception the number of licences issued has not been very high, therefore no quota has been established.
The total number of horses that can be removed can be specified on the licence and a higher ratio of studs maybe specified. Annual counts appear to support the premise that the conservative number of horses removed annually is sustainable.
More Information
What happens to the horses after they have been captured?
All captured horses can be inspected to ensure that they are feral horses (i.e. no brands) and that the licence holder has adhered to the conditions of capture.
Livestock Identification Services Inspectors are contacted if any branded horses are captured.
Once inspected and the animals are removed, it is difficult to know for certain where they end up. Most are used by the licence holders for resale, as packhorses, or as rodeo stock. Some are domesticated for various recreational pursuits.
Is it legal to hunt wild horses?
No, shooting or hunting horses is illegal according to section 444 of the Criminal Code. Specifically, this section says:

"Everyone who wilfully
kills, maims, wounds, poisons or injures cattle, or
places poison in such a position that it may easily be consumed by cattle
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years."
In the Criminal Code, "cattle" is defined as "neat cattle or an animal of the bovine species by whatever technical or familiar name it is known, and includes any horse, mule, ass, pig, sheep or goat."
If you witness or are aware of any illegal activities with respect to hunting feral horses, report the information to the local ASRD Office to initiate an investigation. This information will then be turned over to the RCMP.
Where can I find more information on feral horses?
Below is a short list of references that pertain to feral horses. This list may be updated from time to time, and further information may be found at Government of Alberta and University libraries.
Garrott, R.A. and L. Taylor. 1990. Dynamics of a feral horse population in Montana. J. Wildl. Manage. 54(4): 606-612.
Garrott, R.A., T.C. Eagle and E.D. Plotka. 1991. Age-specific reproduction in feral horses. Can. J. Zool. 69:738-743.
Mayes, E. and P. Duncan. 1986. Temporal patterns of feeding behaviour in free-ranging horses. Behaviour. 96(1): 105-129.
Rogers, G.M. 1991. Kaimanawa feral horses and their environmental impacts. New Zealand Journal of Ecology. 15(1): 49-64.
Salter, R.E. 1978. Ecology of feral horses in Western Alberta. Masters Thesis. Department of Animal Science, University of Alberta.
Salter, R.E. 1978. Distribution, ecology and management of free roaming horses in Alberta. Alberta Energy and Natural Resources, Alberta Forest Service. ENR Report No. 79.
Salter, R.E. 1979. Biogeography and habitat-use behaviour of feral horses in Western and Northern Canada. Department of Animal Science, University of Alberta, Edmonton. Paper presented at Symposium on the Ecology and Behaviour of Feral Equids, 6-8 September 1979, Laramie, Wyoming.
Salter, R.E. and R.J. Hudson, 1978. Distribution and Management of Feral Horses in Western Canada. Rangeman's Journal. Vol. 5, No. 6. December 1978. pp. 190-192.
Salter, R.E. and R.J. Hudson, 1978. Habitat utilization by feral horses in Western Alberta. Naturaliste can., 105: 309-321.
Storrar, J.A., R.J. Hudson and R.E. Salter, 1977. Habitat use behaviour of feral horse and spatial relationships with moose in central British Columbia. Syesis, 10: 39-44.
Wolfe, M.L., C.E. Legrande and R. MacMullen. 1989. Reproductive rates of feral horses and burrows. J. Wildl. Manage. 53(4): 916-924.
  #237  
Old 01-11-2014, 11:43 AM
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In the Criminal Code, "cattle" is defined as "neat cattle or an animal of the bovine species by whatever technical or familiar name it is known, and includes any horse, mule, ass, pig, sheep or goat."


Does this mean that feral pigs are also protected?
No sarcasm intended.
  #238  
Old 01-11-2014, 12:21 PM
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walking buffalo walking buffalo is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
In the Criminal Code, "cattle" is defined as "neat cattle or an animal of the bovine species by whatever technical or familiar name it is known, and includes any horse, mule, ass, pig, sheep or goat."


Does this mean that feral pigs are also protected?
No sarcasm intended.
No.

The Pest and Nuisance Control Regulation gives further definition to feral horses and wild boars.
  #239  
Old 01-12-2014, 01:22 AM
Ukrainankiller Ukrainankiller is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda450 View Post
Another feral horse debate eh? Thin them out keep them as a manageable herd then every one is happy. Think sheepguide was in agreement with this as am I. Its that easy.

Get rid of the cattle in the 400's. Nasty critters. Creek damage from those critters is worse than quads.

Dang this is Alberta kill all the yotes, all the cougars all the gophers, all the badgers, all the wolves, all the horses. Did I miss a few?
You make me wanna puke you . I sure hope you never eat beef or order beef in a restaurant

Last edited by Pixel Shooter; 01-12-2014 at 09:44 AM.
  #240  
Old 01-12-2014, 02:26 AM
uglyelk uglyelk is offline
 
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Alcohol has entered the debate!
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