A world with just more guns is not a safe world

[ali#1]

I don't see the real hatred for Micheal Moore on the right, I consider myself A pretty middle of the road guy and am pretty neutral on Moore, He bring's up good points at times and other times it's nonsense. Really what has moore gone after in his career that hasn't had at least a grain of truth to it ?.

His first film was Roger and me - he said that GM was being greedy closing plants in America and opening then in Mexico, In the film he said GM was unstable and would eventually fall which happened in 2008 and without Government $$$ would have failed.

Bowling for Columbine was about gun violence and going on what's been going on lately with Sandyhook, Aurora etc it's certainly true.

Farenheit 911 was about A link between Bush and Bin laden and some more conspiracy theories, Never really got this one it went a little far for me but he did highlite some of the workings of Bush and his Begining of the Iraq war which ended up being a monumental mistake.

Sicko was about taking some 9/11 survivors down to Cuba to get treatment for pennies on the dollar, And he was pointing out the hypocracy of the American Government of not taking care of own and getting help from a swarn enemy of the country.

Capatalism A love story is about how the system was rigged to fail and how the rich bankers never got in any trouble and were given free government money, While the loley investers like you and me were left not only losing our money but having to pay for the mistakes of the bankers.


So to recap Moore was on point about GM failing and being greedy, Right about all the gun violence which we still see today even more, Right on bush and co going wrongly to Iraq, Right on the hypocracy of the american healthcare system and how unfair it is, And right how the economic system was and still is rigged for the rich and not the middle class and poor, I don't understand the hate for the guy really, Sure he isn't right all the time but his track record is pretty good and he is pretty well hated but hasn't gotten sued once over anything in any of his movies.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by pesky672

What facts?.......Guns might be used to respond to crime like a fire extinguisher is used to respond to fire but guns do not prevent initial crime...........Its really just a matter of understanding the meaning of some words and applying a bit of basic logic...........Shouldn't be too hard to understand but if it gives ya brain ache... I understand.

I understand that you are intelligent. So intelligent, in fact, that it is not necessary for you to research facts or read studies. Why should you bother? All of the truth already resides in your head.

I've posted facts and studies before. Many times. You didn't read it then and neither did your friends. You won't read any of it now. On the off chance that you get curious someday, the facts and studies aren't hard to find. If you ever find yourself in that strange territory, I suggest you check a good percentage of the footnoted references.

Carry on ciphering.

[blackpheasant]

Originally Posted by ali#1

Proof ?

Sorry dude I have exactly 0 time for anything Michael Moore...but feel free to tell us all the great things he's done for mankind, only the true stuff though.

[MtnGiant]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I don't see the real hatred for Micheal Moore on the right, I consider myself A pretty middle of the road guy and am pretty neutral on Moore, He bring's up good points at times and other times it's nonsense. Really what has moore gone after in his career that hasn't had at least a grain of truth to it ?.

His first film was Roger and me - he said that GM was being greedy closing plants in America and opening then in Mexico, In the film he said GM was unstable and would eventually fall which happened in 2008 and without Government $$$ would have failed.

Bowling for Columbine was about gun violence and going on what's been going on lately with Sandyhook, Aurora etc it's certainly true.

Farenheit 911 was about A link between Bush and Bin laden and some more conspiracy theories, Never really got this one it went a little far for me but he did highlite some of the workings of Bush and his Begining of the Iraq war which ended up being a monumental mistake.

Sicko was about taking some 9/11 survivors down to Cuba to get treatment for pennies on the dollar, And he was pointing out the hypocracy of the American Government of not taking care of own and getting help from a swarn enemy of the country.

Capatalism A love story is about how the system was rigged to fail and how the rich bankers never got in any trouble and were given free government money, While the loley investers like you and me were left not only losing our money but having to pay for the mistakes of the bankers.


So to recap Moore was on point about GM failing and being greedy, Right about all the gun violence which we still see today even more, Right on bush and co going wrongly to Iraq, Right on the hypocracy of the american healthcare system and how unfair it is, And right how the economic system was and still is rigged for the rich and not the middle class and poor, I don't understand the hate for the guy really, Sure he isn't right all the time but his track record is pretty good and he is pretty well hated but hasn't gotten sued once over anything in any of his movies.

I see where you fall short on knowledge if this is ur source of news reporting.....not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you....maybe both....much the same I think about mr moore.

[Unregistered user]

^ Watch "Manufacturing Dissent" a Canadian film about moore.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by mtngiant

I see where you fall short on knowledge if this is ur source of news reporting.....not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you....maybe both....much the same I think about mr moore.

Has he been sued over any facts in his films ?

Thats a pretty good measure of truth especially in the USA, Not one bank or banker or Gun company has ever sued him, Im sure he has a team of lawyers going through his films with a fine tooth comb.

You guys have made a boogie man out of him for some reason, Why I don't know he's pretty harmless.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

^ Watch "Manufacturing Dissent" a Canadian film about moore.

I have said some of the stuff he said isn't great or on point but I fail to see why he is so hated, Everybody needs A punching bag I guess.

[blackpheasant]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I have said some of the stuff he said isn't great or on point but I fail to see why he is so hated, Everybody needs A punching bag I guess.

Its ok Ali I feel sorry for him to...

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

A fire extinguisher makes the house safer if you have lots of dangerous flames and potential fire hazards and don't do anything to be proactive and preventative.

X1000

Wrong.

Fire extinguishers minimise loss and damage... they do not make the house safer.
They simply provide a means to respond to a pre-existing dangerous condition that resulted in fire.

Heat detectors or smoke alarms on the other hand can detect and alert peole to fire or potential fire before fire initiates.

Safety belts... don't prevent collision... they minimize impact upon collision.

Hard hats don't make work sites safer... they minimise impact when efforts to prevent impact at job sites fail.

Its important to appreciate that the laymans use of terminilogy is not always the technically correct one.

Now... get off my back and go torture Rocky or something.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

I understand that you are intelligent. So intelligent, in fact, that it is not necessary for you to research facts or read studies. Why should you bother? All of the truth already resides in your head.

I've posted facts and studies before. Many times. You didn't read it then and neither did your friends. You won't read any of it now. On the off chance that you get curious someday, the facts and studies aren't hard to find. If you ever find yourself in that strange territory, I suggest you check a good percentage of the footnoted references.

Carry on ciphering.

Actually I did read them.
And they were bunk.
I recall one question that I asked regarding your facts...repeatedly that you have never answered.
Why?

Because that answer would have to expose them for what they are.
A careful manipulation of legitimate data to arrive a a desired and pre-determined outcome.

I have to give you credit for persistance though.
No matter how many times your facts are proven wrong, weak or cherry picked... you still insist on refering to them.

At least you aren't a quitter.

Carry on... with your apples and oranges mathamatics.
Enjoy... its a free country.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I have said some of the stuff he said isn't great or on point but I fail to see why he is so hated, Everybody needs A punching bag I guess.

Well... every bully needs one anyway...

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by pesky672

Well... every bully needs one anyway...

I am not even saying Moore was right or wrong just trying to figure out the hatred, I know Fox news did a good beat up job on him back in 04 but I don't see why people hate him so much.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I am not even saying Moore was right or wrong just trying to figure out the hatred, I know Fox news did a good beat up job on him back in 04 but I don't see why people hate him so much.

I hear ya.

I don't get it either.

I understand the disagreement... but not the hate.

Maybe its because guys can't stand being wrong and having someone point that out so publically.
Maybe ignorance is bliss and tis infuriating to be outed.

Some guys are so fired up that even a common sense compromise is seen as bad.

Obviously neither house is right and the way ahead lies in a combined effort.
Course that would require everyone to get off their soap box and start an actual discussion between parties.

Oh well just the most recent example from a long list of lost opportunities and wasted efforts.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by pesky672

Actually I did read them.
And they were bunk.

Which ones, exactly?

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Which ones, exactly?

He did not say some were bunk. He said they were bunk.

[blackpheasant]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I am not even saying Moore was right or wrong just trying to figure out the hatred, I know Fox news did a good beat up job on him back in 04 but I don't see why people hate him so much.

Ya while all the other broadcasters were busy drooling all over him

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

I've posted facts and studies before. Many times. You didn't read it then and neither did your friends. You won't read any of it now. On the off chance that you get curious someday, the facts and studies aren't hard to find. If you ever find yourself in that strange territory, I suggest you check a good percentage of the footnoted references.

More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott......reading that to learn about guns in the US is like reading Mein Kampf to learn about Jewish people living in society.

The Reverend Rocky has me on ignore so he likely didn't see this post that I made on another thread. He can't see this post either so have fun.

Here's where quoting John Lott's work will get you:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

It seems that Mr Lapierre got caught in a bit of a lie yesterday at the Senate Hearing. I was just going through the news articles and I found this tidbit of information:

“Out of more than 76,000 firearms purchases supposedly denied by the federal instant check system, only 62 were referred for prosecution,” LaPierre declared in his opening statement.

Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) looked up the actual statistic. “In 2012 more than 11,700 defendants were charged with federal gun crimes,” Whitehouse said, “a lot more than 62.”

LaPierre had been caught. “So those — the 62, senator, statistic, was for Chicago alone,” he clarified, a salient fact omitted from his original testimony.



It may not have been entirely Mr Lapierre's fault though. He may have trusted the stats of John Lott, the individual who the Reverend Rocky continuously refers to as the expert on all things pertaining to guns. On January 19 Lott wrote this in an article:

"In 2010, there were 76,142 initial denials, but even after just the preliminary review by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms there were only 4,732 cases left. Further review by the bureau's field offices and the Department of Justice left only 62 cases to be referred to prosecutors, and only 13 were strong enough to produce a conviction."

Perhaps Mr Lapierre forgot that John Lott is on the NRA payroll and his stats should not to be taken seriously.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Which ones, exactly?

Sorry buds...didn't bother to try keeping a list that long.

"More Guns Less Crime" for one though.

Nothing personal... I understand your reasons and I admire your pluck but in that passion I believe that you are seeing the forest while missing the trees sometimes.

I also believe that your goal is unattainable... and I think you know that.
In fact... I suspect your posts are more frustratiion based and a way of venting than a serious effort to make change.

I get that... you are a good guy yet you feel punished or imposed upon because of what someone else has done.

I feel the same way...
Why shouldn't I have a machine gun?
I followed the rules...I'm a good guy.
They trusted me with one for all those years but soon... no more.

Sometimes life just isn't fair and that dog is too far gone to ever get back.

Its a shame really that you don't redirect all of the energy you expend to something within reach.
We need to stop the flood but accept that some of that ground is lost to us forever.

Again... the best way to shut down Wendy and her bunch... is to quit over-reaching and to work towards more effective controls through licensing etc.
We can come up with our own... realistic solutions or pontificate and shout in the wind allowing others the opportunity to find one for us.

If successful we might actually be able to take back some of what has already been lost to us but it will take that initail breakthrough to convince peole that we are sincere and capable.

[silver]

Originally Posted by pesky672

And my logic is right.
It is yours that is flawed.

A fire extinguisher doesn't make the home safer.
The home is as fire safe as it is constructed to be.
The fire extinguisher does nothing to prevent fire.
It is however a good response to a fire caused by an unsafe condition.
It helps minimize loss but it doesn't make the home safer.
Only something that prevents fire would do that.

Fire is not a sentient entity. It does not enter a house based on the presence or not of a fire extinguisher

[silver]

Originally Posted by ali#1

Has he been sued over any facts in his films ?

Thats a pretty good measure of truth especially in the USA, Not one bank or banker or Gun company has ever sued him, Im sure he has a team of lawyers going through his films with a fine tooth comb.

You guys have made a boogie man out of him for some reason, Why I don't know he's pretty harmless.

You can't sue for telling half the truth. You remember how he was chaseing the GM executives around to get an interview, he actually did get an interview with the big shot, but that part didn't make it into the film.

[silver]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I have said some of the stuff he said isn't great or on point but I fail to see why he is so hated, Everybody needs A punching bag I guess.

He is disliked because he is a sanctimonious hypocrite.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by silver

He is disliked because he is a sanctimonious hypocrite.

Care to add some substance to that?

Name calling doesn't really support your supposition in any way.

[silver]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Care to add some substance to that?

Name calling doesn't really support your supposition in any way.

Advocating gun control while haveing armed body guards is a start.

[silver]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I am not even saying Moore was right or wrong just trying to figure out the hatred, I know Fox news did a good beat up job on him back in 04 but I don't see why people hate him so much.

Moore wandered into the scum range when he went after Charlton Heston, The man had been diagnosed with alzheimers. Attacking the weak and the injured is no way to build credibility.

[KegRiver]

This thread has run it's course.