Wild Horse Cull

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

In the documented circumstances yes, but prior to the 1800's i beleive and also believe there were other bands as well,, not just what the natives had brought north in their travels.

the spaniards lost the battle with the natives, and the horses were left behind. thast my opinion

So you believe the horses that eating the grass on Alberta eastern slopes are from the Spanish and "native" herds that left no evidence of their existence for 10,000 years? What about before the "Spanish"? There is no evidence of horses in North America for a period of roughly 9500 years. If I read you correctly, you contend that there were remnant "bands" of horses that persisted between the supposed time of extinction of horses in North America and the European settlement. ...with no evidence.

In that same period there is ample evidence of other animals... but none for the horse.

Nice idea, but it does not stand up as anything other than your belief.

I won't try to change what you believe... or why you believe it.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by backpacker

To kill a natural predator is the quickest way to allow diseased animals to mix and infect others.
Just my opinion folks, and we are all entitled to that.

Rubbish. Yeah, you can whip up whatever opinions you want. But you can't whip up whatever facts you want.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

They serve zero useful purpose in the wild and compete directly with our native ungulates.

Where was that comment in any of the many previous threads we've had here about grazing leases in the West Country? You were strangely silent when the issue was shytters in the wild. Is there another agenda at play?

Originally Posted by pseelk

Thats all well and good ,I dont have a hate on for horses as long as there on ypur property not on public land.Same goes for cows .If you cant feed them yourself on your own property than maybe you have to many.

I don't agree with your position on wild horses, but I do respect your consistency. If I was in the market for a beeve, I'd be looking to buy from someone like you.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by Knotter

So you believe the horses that eating the grass on Alberta eastern slopes are from the Spanish and "native" herds that left no evidence of their existence for 10,000 years? What about before the "Spanish"? There is no evidence of horses in North America for a period of roughly 9500 years. If I read you correctly, you contend that there were remnant "bands" of horses that persisted between the supposed time of extinction of horses in North America and the European settlement. ...with no evidence.

In that same period there is ample evidence of other animals... but none for the horse.

Nice idea, but it does not stand up as anything other than your belief.

I won't try to change what you believe... or why you believe it.

Funny you say Extinct,, and i have a couple hundred + head in my possesion,, they look far from extinct,



Definition for extinct species:




Web definitions:




A species no longer present in its original range or as a distinct species elsewhere..

[OldSchool]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Then start culling the idiots in the country, would serve more of a purpose.

Now that's an idea!!
Lol

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Where was that comment in any of the many previous threads we've had here about grazing leases in the West Country? You were strangely silent when the issue was shytters in the wild. Is there another agenda at play?

There are lots of stressors on our wildlife......oil, gas, logging, grazing, urban expansion, farming, highways. Their existence doesn't justify placing additional stress on wildlife (two wrongs don't equal a right). Sadly, it becomes a excercise in balance and the value to the society as a whole. Economic value will always trump emotional value. These horses stress our native wildlife and they have no economic value to society as a whole so it's easy to do the math. It's important to reduce the stress on our wildlife as much as we can and two wrongs will never make one of them right.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There are lots of stressors on our wildlife......oil, gas, logging, grazing, urban expansion, farming, highways. Their existence doesn't justify placing additional stress on wildlife (two wrongs don't equal a right). Sadly, it becomes a excercise in balance and the value to the society as a whole. Economic value will always trump emotional value. These horse horses stress our native wildlife and they have no economic value to society as a whole so it's easy to do the math. It's important to reduce the stress on our wildlife as much as we can.

I guess it comes down too,, what do the wildlife hold for economic value?

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Funny you say Extinct,, and i have a couple hundred + head in my possesion,, they look far from extinct,

Are you saying your horses are the direct descendants of the mysterious north american horse that was supposedly migrating around from 8000 b.c. to 1492 and the present day ... but for a period of around 10000 years they left no evidence of their existence?

Neet! Bye.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by Knotter

Are you saying your horses are the direct descendants of the mysterious north american horse that was supposedly migrating around from 8000 b.c. to 1492 and the present day ... but for a period of around 10000 years they left no evidence of their existence?

Neet! Bye.

Really ? are you for real,? Pull your head out of the sand, Extinction means there is none left notto nope nothing zero zilch, these were your words. however the horse still exists today,, funny how that works. read the thread, understand it, absorb it , you may learn something.

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

I guess it comes down too,, what do the wildlife hold for economic value?

Good to see the pragmatic side of you showing...that is a fair statement. Wildlife does hold some economic value much more than the feral horses but undoubtedly it pales in comparison to some of the industries listed. Enter intrinsic value.....native species rate much higher on that scale. Our current wildlife management is based on the conservation of native species...until that changes, horses need to go.

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Really ? are you for real,? Pull your head out of the sand, Extinction means there is none left notto nope nothing zero zilch, these were your words. however the horse still exists today,, funny how that works. read the thread, understand it, absorb it , you may learn something.

Saying the North American "horse" is not extinct is kind of like saying that the wooly mamoth isn't.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Good to see the pragmatic side of you showing...that is a fair statement. Wildlife does hold some economic value much more than the feral horses but undoubtedly it pales in comparison to some of the industries listed. Enter intrinsic value.....native species rate much higher on that scale. Our current wildlife management is based on the conservation of native species...until that changes, horses need to go.

but really of no economic value other than exist. now it will be the horses,, next will be the sheep, or elk or mule deer,, or white tails, the coyote (oh wait they are worth 40 bucks to me,, so skip that.) , Isnt this what happened with the buffalo,, they had become a comodity and were whiped out? and expendable species some said.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Saying the North American "horse" is not extinct is kind of like saying that the wooly mamoth isn't.

thats a whole nother rant My friend,

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

but really of no economic value other than exist. now it will be the horses,, next will be the sheep, or elk or mule deer,, or white tails, the coyote (oh wait they are worth 40 bucks to me,, so skip that.) , Isnt this what happened with the buffalo,, they had become a comodity and were whiped out? and expendable species some said.

Actually wildlife does hold an economic value to society as a whole. The economic benefits of hunting are well documented and the money extends far beyond the hunting community.

I don't think you need to say "next" in regards to the other species as we are already headed down that path with native species...all the more reason to reduce stressors on them.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Good to see the pragmatic side of you showing...that is a fair statement. Wildlife does hold some economic value much more than the feral horses but undoubtedly it pales in comparison to some of the industries listed. Enter intrinsic value.....native species rate much higher on that scale. Our current wildlife management is based on the conservation of native species...until that changes, horses need to go.

Ican understand what your saying now,, ,, ok let look at it this way,, cows have an economic value,,yet alot of people find them an invasive species,, lets whipe them off the planet,, taking 80 percent of the worlds food supply away. what would they turn to next, oh wait native species,, how long would the native species last with that pressure?

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Ican understand what your saying now,, ,, ok let look at it this way,, cows have an economic value,,yet alot of people find them an invasive species,, lets whipe them off the planet,, taking 80 percent of the worlds food supply away. what would they turn to next, oh wait native species,, how long would the native species last with that pressure?

If cows were running feral your point would be very valid and I'd support erradication 100%....they aren't. The are part of the economic driver that is the heart of Alberta. We make compromises for many industries.

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

thats a whole nother rant My friend,

It's funny how easy it is to dismiss things when it doesn't support your arguement

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Actually wildlife does hold an economic value to society as a whole. The economic benefits of hunting are well documented and the money extends far beyond the hunting community.

I don't think you need to say "next" in regards to the other species as we are already headed down that path with native species...all the more reason to reduce stressors on them.

Awe so the hunting agenda has come up. however i do agree the hunting economics do play a great deal in the dynamics of it all. it is a privledge not a right. and does pump tons of money into the ecomomy. however take the privledge out of the equation ,, and put sustanence in the equation,, how long will the native species last.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If cows were running feral your point would be very valid and I'd support erradication 100%....they aren't. The are part of the economic driver that is the heart of Alberta. We make compromises for many industries.

Awe but some people feel they are invasive to their rights to enjoy the outdoors?

however they are an economic driver and feed the masses. what I did say is take them out of the equation. no beef, no farm raised animals of any sort, chickens pigs turkeys ,,nothing. No comprimise, Are the Native species going to sustain the masses?

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Awe so the hunting agenda has come up. however i do agree the hunting economics do play a great deal in the dynamics of it all. it is a privledge not a right. and does pump tons of money into the ecomomy. however take the privledge out of the equation ,, and put sustanence in the equation,, how long will the native species last.

No idea but it's a great arguement to continue hunting...it undoubtedly gives wildlife more worth but not sure what that has to do with feral horses. Let's keep our eye on the prize.

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Awe but some people feel they are invasive to their rights to enjoy the outdoors?

I'm sure some people feel the same about oil, gas, logging, farming etc.....so what? The fact remains the cows aren't feral.....like the horses. Just as I feel domestic cows should not be erradicated, I share the same feeling for domestic horses.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm sure some people feel the same about oil, gas, logging, farming etc.....so what? The fact remains the cows aren't feral.....like the horses. Just bas I feel domestic cows should not be erradicated, I share the same feeling for domestic horses.

Those terrible invasive species the horse is. i think we could go round and round unendlesly and accomplish nothing, i dont think either of us will budge on how we feel no matter which way we look at it,, you see them as an invasive animal ,,i do not. so we shall agree to disagree

[pickrel pat]

Feral.....

[sunsetrider2011]

One thing I do know is the stomach of the populace is far more demanding than that of any other ideal, if there isnt enough space to graze cattle to feed the masses, the wild life will be the next to go to make room for the masses to eat, in thier eyes the wild life will be expendable as well. to serve the greater good of society

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

Feral.....

the neighbors cows get out on my grass they are feral,,if they were there 200 years before i got here they are no longer feral but a fixture

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Those terrible invasive species the horse is. i think we could go round and round unendlesly and accomplish nothing, i dont think either of us will budge on how we feel no matter which way we look at it,, you see them as an invasive animal ,,i do not. so we shall agree to disagree

Sunset I truly appreciate your passion and your desire to discuss this rationaly...I truly do. And I respect the fact that you are basically fighting for your position based on nothing but emotion and that somehow two wrongs should make a right. You have to respect someone with that amount of passion for a cause. I still think you are out to lunch but I do have a lot of respect for you. I think I'm done.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Sunset I truly appreciate your passion and your desire to discuss this rationaly...I truly do. And I respect the fact that you are basically fighting for your position based on nothing but emotion and that somehow two wrongs should make a right. You have to respect someone with that amount of passion for a cause. I still think you are out to lunch but I do have a lot of respect for you. I think I'm done.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There are lots of stressors on our wildlife......oil, gas, logging, grazing, urban expansion, farming, highways. Their existence doesn't justify placing additional stress on wildlife (two wrongs don't equal a right).

So far, so good.

Economic value will always trump emotional value. These horses stress our native wildlife and they have no economic value to society as a whole so it's easy to do the math.

Please explain to me the economic value to society as a whole (to use your exact words) of having some farmers put their cows on the last of our wilderness areas in the mountains.

You dodged my question, so I will ask it again:

Where was that comment in any of the many previous threads we've had here about grazing leases in the West Country? You were strangely silent when the issue was shytters in the wild. Is there another agenda at play?

Originally Posted by Rocky7

You dodged my question, so I will ask it again:

No dodge at all.....perhaps it wasn't the answer you hoped for but it was honest....please refer to post #215.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Really? have you read any of the thread?

I have. All you seem to be doing is propping up straw man after straw man.

You argue where they come from. Blah blah blah.

They are, were, and will always be livestock. Livestock needs to be behind a fence.

You can argue all you want on how magnificent an animal they are. Fine and dandy. Keep all the hay burners you want. Just get rid of the ones that are feral.

That or consider them under the wildlife act like all other wildlife or wild species.

You can romanticize all you want. Some of us don't have horse crap glasses.


These strawman arguments you keep coming up with are laughable. No one is saying get rid of all horses. No one is saying get rid of all the cattle. No one is saying get rid of all the deer, elk, moose, sheep etc.

Rocky7, I am pretty sure livestock on grazing reserves or west country is another topic for another thread. This one is about horses.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

I have. All you seem to be doing is propping up straw man after straw man.

You argue where they come from. Blah blah blah.

They are, were, and will always be livestock. Livestock needs to be behind a fence.

You can argue all you want on how magnificent an animal they are. Fine and dandy. Keep all the hay burners you want. Just get rid of the ones that are feral.

That or consider them under the wildlife act like all other wildlife or wild species.

You can romanticize all you want. Some of us don't have horse crap glasses.


These strawman arguments you keep coming up with are laughable. No one is saying get rid of all horses. No one is saying get rid of all the cattle. No one is saying get rid of all the deer, elk, moose, sheep etc.

Rocky7, I am pretty sure livestock on grazing reserves or west country is another topic for another thread. This one is about horses.

Then you know absolutely nothing of history. enough said, like Sheep I too am finished.