Should we ban fracking wells in alberta?

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by hal53

...and 25 cents a barrel or "whatever" is another ill informed piece of crap. According to that logic, if Alberta is short 9+ billion dollars this year...we must produce 36 billion BOE ???......

$8 Billion in royalty revenue to the taxpayers 2014/2015, that doesn't sound like much of a subsidy to me either.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

They pay a lot more taxes than just the royalty. They are taxed on every piece of production equipment on a lease, lease taxes, income taxes. They pay on every acre for the right to explore and drill. Payroll taxes, fuel taxes, the list is just as endless for them as it is for you.

Oh and your small business tax rate is 3% and The oil company pays 12%, who is subsidizing who? You work under the same deduction rules as the oil company, so tell me who really gets the preferential treatment?

Well Im paying 12% according to my accountant.

Bottom line is this. I remember when corporate tax was 30%. That's where it should be. On my business as well.... But then we had tax deductions and credits..... Different system.... But a better one.

I cant understand why people defend big business.....

Historically they get more, take more, pay less as the years go on and the common man picks up the slack.

I dont care what industry it is. It is not just big oil.

Look at Canadian banks. Record profits, Paying less tax, Huge government bailouts...... Users fees going through the roof to have someone make money off your money......

Its a load of crock.......

I don't want anyone in the oil industry to suffer (workers). But other countries make 100 times the amount we do from our oil......

Im sure you guys defend the walmart family and there business practices....

Answer me this..

Why can an individual not deduct his mileage for driving to work to earn a living wage?????

Why can that same individual drive his truck for business and deduct it????

Why can that same individual drive that same company vehicle to the same location for a company and that company deduct it?????

Its the same vehicle, same trip, same distance.

All should be treated the same.

Corporations in this country have a huge advantage over individuals. That needs to change.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

$8 Billion in royalty revenue to the taxpayers 2014/2015, that doesn't sound like much of a subsidy to me either.

Doesnt sound like a lot of money either!!! What are their combined corporate profits for say the last 50 years???

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hal53

You better do some research and see who funds the orphan well program, I do however, agree that they have to take a long, hard look at the fluid volumes being used here....

Originally Posted by hal53

Do all you guys get a free course on how to cut and paste information that's irrelevant to the conversation as part of your party membership?

Originally Posted by hal53

are you so naive as to believe your power bill will not increase when we have to buy it from BC and not produce it here?, or the gasoline you get for your vehicle is refined from product that has to be shipped from 1/2 way around the world??.... typical left wing response, don't strive to be the cleanest you can "just make them pay"....nice, very nice...

Originally Posted by hal53

Do you know who runs the Orphan Well program?...Do you know who funds it?, Do you know how much money is sitting there to properly abandon and restore those well sites?

Originally Posted by hal53

Obviously I do know...google is your friend, take a few minutes and learn something before spouting off about something you have zero knowledge of....

Originally Posted by hal53

...and 25 cents a barrel or "whatever" is another ill informed piece of crap. According to that logic, if Alberta is short 9+ billion dollars this year...we must produce 36 billion BOE ???......

I see a pattern of calling names and insulting people.

You act very knowledgeable and come across that way. Unfortunately you do not back it up with anything. I am certainly open to your information.

I do not know everything and am not the most knowledgeable. I just have my beliefs.

As well I am not ANTI FRAC! I am against how some of the things are done in this province to do with fraccing. I do not agree that companies do not have to disclose what chemicals they frac with (my understanding). And I am not happy with how there is no accountability if they do by chance affect people negatively (again my understanding).

I support big oil employees to the max!

However you have to ask why companies like royal dutch shell has much stricter environmental, tax and partnership restrictions at home than they do here.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

.......
Why can an individual not deduct his mileage for driving to work to earn a living wage?????

Why can that same individual drive his truck for business and deduct it????

Why can that same individual drive that same company vehicle to the same location for a company and that company deduct it?????

Its the same vehicle, same trip, same distance.

......

The person driving his truck for business can not deduct driving to and from work either. Easiest audit CRA can do, and does, for those whose office is in the home.

Ask your accountant about this.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

I see a pattern of calling names and insulting people.

You act very knowledgeable and come across that way. Unfortunately you do not back it up with anything. I am certainly open to your information.

I do not know everything and am not the most knowledgeable. I just have my beliefs.

As well I am not ANTI FRAC! I am against how some of the things are done in this province to do with fraccing. I do not agree that companies do not have to disclose what chemicals they frac with (my understanding). And I am not happy with how there is no accountability if they do by chance affect people negatively (again my understanding).

I support big oil employees to the max!

However you have to ask why companies like royal dutch shell has much stricter environmental, tax and partnership restrictions at home than they do here.

Spreading your "beliefs" as "facts" on an open forum soon leads to rumors becoming the "truth". I am not your secretary, if you are truly interested in some facts, the world is at your finger tips, very easy to find the answers to your questions. My apologies, I didn't see the question mark behind many of your assumptions

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by avb3

The person driving his truck for business can not deduct driving to and from work either. Easiest audit CRA can do, and does, for those whose office is in the home.

Ask your accountant about this.

Yes. You are correct. I was completely wrong and already knew it. However, large companies do get this deduction. These deductions from large companies eat into our tax revenues. Therefore our taxes.... USER FEES in Alberta have to go up to meet these growing deficits. We are supposedly (or have been ) the richest province in Canada. Yet I pay over $1300 a year for my 3 kids to go to public school. I know when I went through the school system these fees did not exist.

Hell the big business mentality has even hit our school systems. One local High school has 7 vice principles and 4 BUSINESS MANAGERS/ REVENUE GENERATORS!!!!!!!

WTH!!!!

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

Give me a break. At 25 cents a barrell or whatever..... You want me to feel bad for big oil... They pay next to no taxes in this country. Get subsidies and government largess and in many ways a free ride. In other countries they pay real taxes and have much stricter laws, have partnerships with these countries instead of crappy royalty agreements and still make a boat load of money.

Poor big oil


And Ive been running a business for 19 Years. And IVE PAID TAXES FOR THOSE 19 YEARS! No subsidies handouts preferential treatment or any other benefit big oil has.

Snap out of it!

Oh I forgot about you. You know nothing about oil. Business sense I am sceptical.

Back up your statements with facts.

Oil companies pay tax. Lots of it. They also plow tons into the economy via direct and indirect jobs. They showed they are the only ones that can manage risk and reward efficiently.

As for subsidies...they don't take subsidies.

There are drilling incentives designed to increase capita lend and jobs.

If you don't like true subsidies what do you think of bird and bat murdering wind farms?

I dare you to find a major oil producing companies with tighter rules and regulations and similar basin demographics than Alberta.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hal53

Spreading your "beliefs" as "facts" on an open forum soon leads to rumors becoming the "truth". I am not your secretary, if you are truly interested in some facts, the world is at your finger tips, very easy to find the answers to your questions. My apologies, I didn't see the question mark behind many of your assumptions

Exact same back at you Hal.

And I am not against Big Oil or Fraccing... I am against how Big Oil and Fraccing is done.

But It is a resource we need to exploit as long as we Can.

I do Believe in Solar..... Its not a replacement.

I do Believe in Wind Farms...... Its Not a replacement.

I even believe Coal has a place in our province...... Disagree with NDP on that one........

But there is no where near of a profit division between big oil companies, their workers, and society. (THIS IS NOT JUST AN ISSUE FOR THE OIL INDUSTRY)

I feel that there is absolutely no reason that Every oil feel worker should not have a company/user pension same as government workers. The profits are there to do it....

But then I do not believe big banks or hedge fund managers should be making tens of millions or billions per year either next to tax free....

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Oh I forgot about you. You know nothing about oil. Business sense I am sceptical.

Back up your statements with facts.

Oil companies pay tax. Lots of it. They also plow tons into the economy via direct and indirect jobs. They showed they are the only ones that can manage risk and reward efficiently.

As for subsidies...they don't take subsidies.

There are drilling incentives designed to increase capita lend and jobs.

If you don't like true subsidies what do you think of bird and bat murdering wind farms?

I dare you to find a major oil producing companies with tighter rules and regulations and similar basin demographics than Alberta.

Back up your statements with facts!

Incentives, subsidies, hand outs..... whats the difference.... Your telling me big oil cant afford to do this on its own????? Seriously.....

I dare you to put some facts in backing up how great oil companies in Alberta are. SHOW ME THE FACTS JACK!

AND FOR THE RECORD!

I support big oil..... I support oil workers and there family's. I do not agree with how everything is done and I feel all companies in this province need to pay more tax....

This BS about needing to lower taxes so companies can provide jobs has just shown what a line of complete and utter bull **** it is..... These oil companies have paid very low tax for decades and every 10 years it gets better for them. WHERE ARE THE JOBS NOW????? They have paid low taxes and times get tough.... cut and run.

1981 Max corporate Tax rate 50.9%
1990 Max corporate Tax rate 41.5%
2001 Max corporate Tax rate 40.5%
2006 Max corporate Tax rate 33.9%
2010 Max corporate Tax rate 29.4%
2014 Max corporate Tax rate 26.5%

There's some fax for ya HAL and Sundancefisher.

Now you show me how our society and work environments have improved since 1981 because all these big companies pay there BIG SHARE! AS WELL my company should be taxed higher!

And don't forget through Canadian TAX rules these companies can CREATIVELY use our tax rules to bring there net tax to 0.

Heck Canada post did it in 2012 by changing their accounting methodology to go from a 98 million dollar profit to a 212 million dollar loss.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

Exact same back at you Hal.

And I am not against Big Oil or Fraccing... I am against how Big Oil and Fraccing is done.

But It is a resource we need to exploit as long as we Can.

I do Believe in Solar..... Its not a replacement.

I do Believe in Wind Farms...... Its Not a replacement.

I even believe Coal has a place in our province...... Disagree with NDP on that one........

But there is no where near of a profit division between big oil companies, their workers, and society.

I feel that there is absolutely no reason that Every oil feel worker should not have a company/user pension same as government workers. The profits are there to do it....

But then I do not believe big banks or hedge fund managers should be making tens of millions or billions per year either next to tax free....

The people who are employed directly by the oil companies and the service companies do have pension plans (?)
What part of how fracs are pumped are you not in favor of?, maybe I can help there

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hal53

The people who are employed directly by the oil companies and the service companies do have pension plans (?)
What part of how fracs are pumped are you not in favor of?, maybe I can help there

Im not in favor of hidden frac fluid formulas. I guess I think there should be a standard.... The way it was last time I discussed it with a friends hubby was each company had its secret sauce. So when things do go wrong it is impossible to hold those companies responsible for damage. As it is impossible to compare as there are no records.

Also Alberta energy has rejected the right for people to sue fracking companies as well has the Alberta court in the past.

"In an earlier ruling, an Alberta court rejected Ernst's suit, ruling that immunity provisions in Alberta's Energy Resources Conservation Act exempt her from protections offered by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms."


In fact this year the supreme court has heard the appeal of this lady but has not decided.....

Heres my problem.... We need Fracking MAYBE.... But if there is a problem the fracking company and Alberta Energy and the Alberta courts have told people to go stuff it.......

Its the exact same issue with forcing power lines on peoples property and giving them nothing. No proof it does any damage. No you've always glown in the dark.....

Thats a big problem.


"Hydraulic fracturing involves pumping water, nitrogen, sand and chemicals at high pressure underground to fracture rock and allow natural gas or oil to flow through wells to the surface.

Earlier this year, a Council of Canadian Academies study said there is a major gap in understanding fracking’s potential impacts on the environment and people, as well as how to mitigate accidental releases of chemicals or flowback water.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is currently conducting a study to better understand any potential impacts of hydraulic fracturing on drinking water."

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

Im not in favor of hidden frac fluid formulas. I guess I think there should be a standard.... The way it was last time I discussed it with a friends hubby was each company had its secret sauce. So when things do go wrong it is impossible to hold those companies responsible for damage. As it is impossible to compare as there are no records.

Also Alberta energy has rejected the right for people to sue fracking companies as well has the Alberta court in the past.

"In an earlier ruling, an Alberta court rejected Ernst's suit, ruling that immunity provisions in Alberta's Energy Resources Conservation Act exempt her from protections offered by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms."


In fact this year the supreme court has heard the appeal of this lady but has not decided.....

Heres my problem.... We need Fracking MAYBE.... But if there is a problem the fracking company and Alberta Energy and the Alberta courts have told people to go stuff it.......

Thats a big problem.

There is no "secret sauce", different carrying fluids are used for different applications, each and every chemical used in any frac fluid has an MSD Sheet that is delivered to location so every person on that lease is aware of what is on location...it's no secret what so ever. Each company will have a different "trade name" for a chemical, but the majority of them come from a small group of manufacturers and they are all the same, usually right down to the loadings of each chemical. As far as oil co's. hiding behind laws, I won't comment on that except to say if they are found guilty of any wrong doing, they should not in any way be granted any special consideration

[Rio56]

Originally Posted by hal53

There is no "secret sauce", different carrying fluids are used for different applications, each and every chemical used in any frac fluid has an MSD Sheet that is delivered to location so every person on that lease is aware of what is on location...it's no secret what so ever. Each company will have a different "trade name" for a chemical, but the majority of them come from a small group of manufacturers and they are all the same, usually right down to the loadings of each chemical. As far as oil co's. hiding behind laws, I won't comment on that except to say if they are found guilty of any wrong doing, they should not in any way be granted any special consideration

just asking .. have other countries banned fracking ?

and to answer the OP'S question .. YES without a doubt . ban it !!!!

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hal53

There is no "secret sauce", different carrying fluids are used for different applications, each and every chemical used in any frac fluid has an MSD Sheet that is delivered to location so every person on that lease is aware of what is on location...it's no secret what so ever. Each company will have a different "trade name" for a chemical, but the majority of them come from a small group of manufacturers and they are all the same, usually right down to the loadings of each chemical. As far as oil co's. hiding behind laws, I won't comment on that except to say if they are found guilty of any wrong doing, they should not in any way be granted any special consideration

is that not like saying the big mac special sauce or coke are known recipes because they each say what is in them on the side of the bottle??????

Well this province has a history or protecting industry by creating "UNIQUE" laws that prevent the common man from taking any action against them the province or the companies. The same laws that have protected Alberta Utilities Regulators protect their counterparts in the Oil industry.

I am looking forward to many of these laws being struck down. I feel we need this to capitalize on assets while we can as a Nation. But when sh&t happens people need to have the right to take action and be compensated.

My deceased brother in law and his wife had to have water trucked in to their property as a result of oil activity around the property they lived on. Oil companies paid for it..... The water well was disconnected and never utilized again.... But they were renting at the time.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Rio56

just asking .. have other countries banned fracking ?

and to answer the OP'S question .. YES without a doubt . ban it !!!!

What reason do you have to outright ban it?

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hal53

What reason do you have to outright ban it?

Im not for banning it. I do believe we need more research and better policing. As well society needs to have the right to go after these companies/Province when things go wrong. A right we currently do not have!

http://www.desmogblog.com/2016/03/10...wsuit-reported

A USA verdict

[Rio56]

Originally Posted by hal53

What reason do you have to outright ban it?

If you want to talk in circles Hal .. go ahead , you really are getting boring with your techy talk BS .. now , can you answer the question ? any countries ban fracking ? if so how come they didn't consult with you .... try the straight line this time

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Rio56

If you want to talk in circles Hal .. go ahead , you really are getting boring with your techy talk BS .. now , can you answer the question ? any countries ban fracking ? if so how come they didn't consult with you .... try the straight line this time

yup, some have, others have placed a moratorium on it pending further studies. Now , see if you can answer my question with out any more of your childish veiled insults...

[79ford]

A fracking ban in the usa would be an okay idea, fracking down there has hooped our tarsand operation pretty hard with this huge oil glut

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

Im not for banning it. I do believe we need more research and better policing. As well society needs to have the right to go after these companies/Province when things go wrong. A right we currently do not have!

http://www.desmogblog.com/2016/03/10...wsuit-reported

A USA verdict

I agree more research has to be done on stack fracs for sure

[Rio56]

Originally Posted by hal53

yup, some have, others have placed a moratorium on it pending further studies. Now , see if you can answer my question with out any more of your childish veiled insults...

no insults ... your question is ? why ? where have you been ? stop the defending in a slippery way .... your question has been answered on here enough ...

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Rio56

no insults ... your question is ? why ? where have you been ? stop the defending in a slippery way .... your question has been answered on here enough ...

So, you have no idea yourself why it should be banned, you're just along for the ride?......thought so....bye, have a good night

[Rio56]

Originally Posted by hal53

So, you have no idea yourself why it should be banned, you're just along for the ride?......thought so....bye, have a good night

LMAO ...yes Hal.. i am on the "ban" wagon and for what reason ? lets have research figure it out and you accept it ..ok

[dannypee]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Sure is, but that was in the 70's and 80's. Not anymore

There is very little conventional perforating and fracking today in cased holes. 90% are multi stage liner systems that are ran into horizontal open hole. The 2500-4500 meter vertical section of the well is drilled, cased and cemented. Then the horizontal leg is drilled, reamed and a multi stage packer system is ran into that section of the well. 20-40 ball drop frac ports is the norm now and the liner is held in place with a tie back packer in the vertical casing as well as inflate packers in the open hole between each frac port. The vertical casing sees no pressure during the frac because a tie back string is ran and latched into the tie back packer at the top of the liner system. Other wells have a production casing ran inside the intermediate casing with is also cemented in place.

I'm sure this sounds like Chinese to most but the system is very safe as far as isolating all water aquifers from damage.

The only other issue I do see is these earthquakes that seem to becoming more common. As the frac volumes and rates continue to climb we seem to be entering uncharted territory as far as these jobs go. Just 15 years ago a big frac meant we were pumping water at 3,000 litres/min during the job. A few months ago a buddy did one in Edson where they were pumping water at 40,000 litres/min for the frac. When you consider they pumped for 20 minutes per stage in a 30 stage frac system that's 800,000 litres of water ever 20 minutes and they did that 30 times over 3 days. That's a lot of volume and mass pushed into a specific section of the earth in a very short period of time.

Agreed we were fracing for a Customer in Northern Alberta at 15 m3 a min at 90 mpa for a 250 ton zone on a 26 zone well it was also a 4 well pad so you guys do the math that's a lot of fluid and a lot of dirt in the dirt I still frac but I'm sure that that situation prob assisted with the earthquake situation in the area you have to remember there are many frac operations going on at once to !

[hillbillyreefer]

Well Camdelle I guess the only question left to ask is "why don't you run your business at a loss?"

[Operator]

Going back about 10 years CBM fracs (coal bed methane) were popular. These were shallow wells where nitrogen was pumped into coal seams to produce the methane. Could these and did these wells damage water wells in areas - yes they did. I believe the oil companies took responsibility for these. The CBM fad didn't last that long and hopefully they never go that route again. These were not what I would call hydraulic fractured wells even though the term frac is tied to them.
Can today's conventional vertical or horizontal hydraulically frac'd wells contaminate ground water - pretty much not possible. The Canadian Oilfield follows very strict safety and environmental policies as opposed to many other oil and gas producing countries. How many people report a 4 litre spill on private property - oil and service companies do. I would think most people would kick some dirt over it and continue on with their day.
As far as the amount of fresh water being used on today's frac's, that is a concern and need's to be looked at. What is better about todays large pad horizontal wells - instead of having 50 vertical wells with 50 pipelines leading to one battery in the same field, one pad with one pipeline can produce the same or more product = less overall environmental disruption.
Should we move towards renewables, sure we should, but we can't just stop producing oil and gas. The experts and environmentalists that are so against it can't even spell it - there is no ''k'' in frac. I don't think most people realize how many things in this world are made from oil and gas by products. If you don't understand this you should look into it. Step one would be to stop responding to posts like this because your computer and cell phone are made from plastic which is a hydrocarbon by product.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Well Camdelle I guess the only question left to ask is "why don't you run your business at a loss?"

Well hill billy reefer..... Seriously.... Hard to take you seriously with that moniker... But then Im sure your now a huge trudeau fan....

Whats your point? Don't waste our time with stupid questions.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

But there is no where near of a profit division between big oil companies, their workers, and society. (THIS IS NOT JUST AN ISSUE FOR THE OIL INDUSTRY)

I feel that there is absolutely no reason that Every oil feel worker should not have a company/user pension same as government workers. The profits are there to do it....

Think you are a little off on this one my friend. Energy industry workers (those still working anyway) are about the most highly paid employees in the country. Wages don't make up a huge component of most energy companies budgets not because they are cheap but because they are capital intensive. A Walmart has more employees than a multi-billion dollar facility.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Think you are a little off on this one my friend. Energy industry workers (those still working anyway) are about the most highly paid employees in the country. Wages don't make up a huge component of most energy companies budgets not because they are cheap but because they are capital intensive. A Walmart has more employees than a multi-billion dollar facility.

Yes. Wages are one thing... But there is more to life than a good wage.

For companies it should be that they contribute to society and make it a better place through taxes ect.

And remember not only has corporate tax rates dropped from 50% in the 70's to under 26% today..... But the tax rules and loopholes large companies have today allow them to take serious advantage of our tax system.

At the same time we as individuals have seen the tax system we deal with tighten around our necks with the drop in value of deductions or tax credits. As well all these same governments have introduced and increased thing like users fees for services.

It seems that every year corporations get away with more while the government tighten up on individuals.

When corporations were first created they had to be a benefit to society. Now corporations have more rights and advantages than an individual. That is wrong.