Hunting Draw Priority Points Cap

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by depopulator

I could live with that, as long as all applicants were eligible for the random draw.

That is the thinking. Those without a hope in heck via priority points would have a crack at 20% of the tags via the lottery. Those in contention with priority points would additionally have a crack at it via the lottery portion of the draw.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I sent the letter below to one of the addresses posted by Sheephunter previously in this thread.



The response was:



So if you feel strongly about this issue,contact the proper people,and let them know how you feel.Your input may make a difference.

I got the exact same response from Rob Corrigans office. My MLA's office wanted confirmation that it was actually me who sent the e-mail and not just someone with a computer. I was assured that my concerns would be brought to Mr. Knights attention. Mr. Berger will see it as soon as possible.

Anyone else that it might be useful to address? Who in SRD?

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Maybe all the draws don't need to be impacted. SRD needs to be asked the question - is the P6 cap being proposed for all species draws currently taking a P6 or higher, or is it only being considered for the now impossible to draw tags?

Anyone get a response from SRD on that question for clarification?

[Matt L.]

I would also send an e-mail or letter to Doug Butler, AFGA Hunting Chair. I don't have his contact info on me, but sheephunter should have it.

[JustinC]

I am not sure if it is on here but you can check it out.

http://alberta.ca/home/directory.cfm

[Dark Wing]

Keep the draw system the way it is. There's Lots of oppertunity to hunt sheep with out a draw so it's not like any one is missing out. If any new areas open then maybe SRD can make adjustments, but don't screw over the guys that have been applying since day one.

[ramshorn]

at the same time don't screw the guys who were never old enough to enter some of theses draws and thus will never have a chance at being drawn. the system needs some revisions. the 80/20 split seems like the best approach so far.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

"What would your hunting plans for the rest of your life look like after pulling your one and only, for example, moose tag, how bout an antelope tag?? What of management goals and initiatives?? If living in the outdoors were a life style we desired, we would all have to become outfitters to enjoy a hunting season."

That wasn't my idea. I think it was yours.


" No, your idea wouldn't cut it, not if you wanted it to be fair. "

So a draw where everyone has the same chance is not fair?

OK.

Only for the very first year of that particular draw. In subsequent years the only way its fair is to get in line, first come-first serve, and when you get drawn you go back to the back of the line. Do you really think it would be fair if one guy applied for 10-15 years without pulling a tag while his luckier friend got drawn 2 or 3 times in the same time period?

Just thought I'd bring this back to the top...it is a very important issue that all AO members should voice their opinion on to SRD.

[ishootbambi]

i mentioned it before, but it seemed to go unnoticed. isnt the problem really only with a few sheep draws that you have to live more than 100 years to catch up to? if a few elk and moose draws are 10-12 year wait....it seems most guys are ok with that. just fix the sheep draws that the young guys have no hope of ever seeing and leave well enough alone.

[ishootbambi]

ya know, for that matter, the numbers of sheep draw applicants wildly outnumber sheep hunters who regularly do it. perhaps bumping application fees to say 50 bucks or so may cut down on daddy entering WIN numbers for wife, kids, dog, neighbours dog etc. the draws are so popular because they are the best bet for taking a big mature ram. a lot of those guys have no interest in the work involved in general sheep hunting, and a lot more have no interest in hunting the small immature sheep found in most of the general sheep areas. so....bump the draw application fees but not to where its a burden, and put that money into funding some of the ideas that have come up to help make sheep huntng better for all. (see sheep threads if you are unfamiliar with these ideas)

[PLOTT]

I am not sure why some people want to rewrite sheep draws.Some of the antlered moose and antlered elk draws if you started with a zero priorty it would take 60 or more years to get a tag. You could change your zone and get a draw with lower priority but sheep you can buy general tag over counter and still put in draw for 438[which may be best draw of all] and always have chance at tag. Maybe we should put 108 elk on random draw to even it up.Actually the 20% random draw for all tags, not just sheep may be a good idea.

[solocam3]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

I would also send an e-mail or letter to Doug Butler, AFGA Hunting Chair. I don't have his contact info on me, but sheephunter should have it.

You can contact any of the AFGA Executive (Remember, they are volunteers and NOT being paid) through the web page www.afga.org
All you AFGA members should know this, after all, they are volunteering for YOU, the members!

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by PLOTT

I am not sure why some people want to rewrite sheep draws.Some of the antlered moose and antlered elk draws if you started with a zero priorty it would take 60 or more years to get a tag. You could change your zone and get a draw with lower priority but sheep you can buy general tag over counter and still put in draw for 438[which may be best draw of all] and always have chance at tag. Maybe we should put 108 elk on random draw to even it up.Actually the 20% random draw for all tags, not just sheep may be a good idea.

I think you need to go take a math class.As there is no zone in this province that would take 60+ years for elk or moose(this make the trophy animals).Other than the sheep draws Nothing should been changed.Wait like we have for years.I dont agree with this 20% to all draws just the sheep.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by PLOTT

I am not sure why some people want to rewrite sheep draws.Some of the antlered moose and antlered elk draws if you started with a zero priorty it would take 60 or more years to get a tag. You could change your zone and get a draw with lower priority but sheep you can buy general tag over counter and still put in draw for 438[which may be best draw of all] and always have chance at tag. Maybe we should put 108 elk on random draw to even it up.Actually the 20% random draw for all tags, not just sheep may be a good idea.

60 years i have to call BS....near as i can figure the longest draw (aside from the sheep that seems to be the root of this thread,)is likey elk around 12 for suffield????? i aint got the gumption to look it up but im sure someone will.....

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by delburnedave

Only for the very first year of that particular draw. In subsequent years the only way its fair is to get in line, first come-first serve, and when you get drawn you go back to the back of the line. Do you really think it would be fair if one guy applied for 10-15 years without pulling a tag while his luckier friend got drawn 2 or 3 times in the same time period?

If it is a random draw, then how is it not fair??/ I agree some people are luckier than others and life is not fair. Anyone who buys a lottery ticket has the same chance, but not everyone wins.

If it is only P10 or higher that can win , is that fair?
There is no one line solution to a draw as a management tool. Like iI said someone will always feel cheated. I have no problem with putting a restriction of once drawn you are out of the running for high value draws.

[walking buffalo]

I just got off the phone with Kim Morton, ASRD- Lethbridge.

He told me that they do not have a fixed position regarding changes to the draws, ie, species, priority point cap, lottery.

They are looking into any and all options, and are asking for your opinion.

The suggestion of a blanket 6 priority point cap on all species may have been brought to the table by AFGA.

There most likely will be changes to the system, so give your opinion to ASRD and AFGA.

[PLOTT]

Actually I am good at math,164 Antlered Elk,10 Tags/621 applicants,402 Antlered Moose 10 Tags/663 applicants.That is 62 & 66 years I think.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

If it is a random draw, then how is it not fair??/ I agree some people are luckier than others and life is not fair. Anyone who buys a lottery ticket has the same chance, but not everyone wins.

If it is only P10 or higher that can win , is that fair?
There is no one line solution to a draw as a management tool. Like iI said someone will always feel cheated. I have no problem with putting a restriction of once drawn you are out of the running for high value draws.

I guess it depends on one's definition of fair. In the zone that I like to hunt mule deer a guy can pretty well count on drawing an antlered tag every three years. That means everyone who wants to hunt antlered MD in that zone can have a tag every three years, unless the number of applicants and/or available tags changes. To me that seems more fair than one guy pulling a tag every year, and another maybe never getting drawn, which theoretically could happen in a random draw.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I just got off the phone with Kim Morton, ASRD- Lethbridge.

He told me that they do not have a fixed position regarding changes to the draws, ie, species, priority point cap, lottery.

They are looking into any and all options, and are asking for your opinion.

The suggestion of a blanket 6 priority point cap on all species may have been brought to the table by AFGA.

There most likely will be changes to the system, so give your opinion to ASRD and AFGA.

It was SRD that brought this up as one of their possible changes in the future regs - specifically 2011 for this one.

Thanks for the update & info.

[walking buffalo]

Here is a draw change that I would like to see.

Successful applicants in the draw must purchase the required liscence/tag by a fixed date. (say Aug. 15)

All tags not purchased by that date will be re-issued, through a draw process or first come / first served to applicants in the same draw with matching priority points.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I just got off the phone with Kim Morton, ASRD- Lethbridge.

He told me that they do not have a fixed position regarding changes to the draws, ie, species, priority point cap, lottery.

They are looking into any and all options, and are asking for your opinion.

The suggestion of a blanket 6 priority point cap on all species may have been brought to the table by AFGA.

There most likely will be changes to the system, so give your opinion to ASRD and AFGA.

LOL..looks like they are running for the hills already. It was an SRD proposal as presented by Rob Gorrigan at the AFGA conference. AFGA actually passed a resolution opposing it. Funny how stories get twisted around.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL..looks like they are running for the hills already. It was an SRD proposal as presented by Rob Gorrigan at the AFGA conference. AFGA actually passed a resolution opposing it. Funny how stories get twisted around.

Know what ya mean. Hopefully Gorrigan is lookin' on here.

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Know what ya mean. Hopefully Gorrigan is lookin' on here.

oooops..meant Corrigan

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

oooops..meant Corrigan

somethin' tells me I shoulda known that too.

[elkhunter11]

Here is a draw change that I would like to see.

Successful applicants in the draw must purchase the required liscence/tag by a fixed date. (say Aug. 15)

All tags not purchased by that date will be re-issued, through a draw process or first come / first served to applicants in the same draw with matching priority points.

Great idea,and the original person drawing the tag loses his priority points for drawing the tag.This would keep people from applying for draws that they don't really want,and keeping someone else from drawing the tag by doing so.

[tony d]

I'm with elk hunter on this one I think it would weed out the maybe if & make some people wise up it would probably reduce the draw time on a bunch of species

[dlkenny]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think the point that needs to be remembered here is that status quo is not an option. SRD is going to change it. I'd love to hear some other options. So far the split is the best I've heard...a lot better than totally gutting the draw system with a 6-year cap......The cap would still mean that the vast majority of hunters will never draw some tags and it opens the door to other hunters drawing multiple times before someone else draws once. It's very unfair for those that were once at the top.

I know in BC they had this same issue with the Bison hunt because it was deemed a statistically impossible draw. The solution there is to allow each person only one crack at a draw in a lifetime. It says specifically in the draw booklet that it is a once in a lifetime opportunity, so anyone who does draw gets removed from the pool and cannot draw again. The 80/20 system that was suggested here could work if those who were drawn were unable to apply again, thereby removing the possibility of some people getting a second draw through the 20% allocated through a random lottery system. It would shrink the pool over time, allowing more people to participate.

I also like the idea of re-issuing a tag if someone doesn't buy the tag in time, it should go to the another person with maximum priority and the guy who was drawn but didn't buy his tag goes back to 0 priority, or in the once in a lifetime system he loses his opportunity.

[avb3]

I need to jump in here.

Many of you remember years ago, before the priority system was finally installed, the unfairness of what seemed the repeat draws some people seemed to get for desirable areas/species.

For years the AFGA passed resolutions for the government to implement a priority system.

Myself and our hunting chair at the time, Dave Gibson, were extensively involved in developing the current system with F&W over the period of many, many months and many, many meetings.

The system had a few hiccups at first, but has developed in what is regarded by many as one of the best systems in North America. Sure there are issues around outfitter clients being able to buy a tag each year, but if one keeps in mind that outfitters are allocated "x" number of tags anyways, does it really matter who they sell it too?

I would hate to see this system which we fought for so long, and which has been fine tune to where it is today, to be degraded to a hybrid model. I am well aware of Sarcee's resolution; it gives the basis for a discussion (think Mountain Goat), but is not prescriptive.

IMHO, 6 years is significantly lower than not being able to get a statistical chance at a draw.

Let's leave well enough alone, with perhaps *minor* exceptions. It took too much work and effort and lobbying to get this system in the first place.

[Roughneck Country]

I like how some of the States in the US have dealt with the problem. Every year the draw is random but each year you put in you get a priority point and if my memory serves me correct you get exponential amount of priority points for each year previous you have put into the draw in the past incresaeing the odds of people who have the most years in the draw but still making it possible to draw earlier although unlikly. And there is always the option to put in for the "999" or equivelent to just build your points rating. Seems to be a popular solution down there as a lot of states do there draws this way or a version of it. I don't think totally random draws are the way to go but at least with this type of system you can increase your odds each year when you put in. or maybe have this type of draw for stuff like buffalo, mountain goat or other draws that are statistically impossible to draw.