Solution for Feral Horse Invasion

[evil72]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

I am stating the feral humans (non native )have no pov to state the horse did not prexist the feral human . That is all . Are the suffield elk feral ?? I sugest no ,a reintroduced once extinct critter just like the horse.

1. Elk were never extinct .
2. The Non F. Humans(Natives) were the ones to make WILD HORSES extinct in the first place,(a few thousand years ago)not long after immigrating to North America from current day Russia. So your point is??
3. There was 1200 head of F. Horses from the Clear Water R. to the Red Deer R. the last time I talked to a person that counted them. + or - That is not counting the rest of the Eastern Slopes!
4. What would your position be if Asian Carp showed up in your fav. Trout stream? Love them and leave them???
5. If the Spanish and other F. Humans,(as you call US),reintroduced the F. Horses to N. America ,then it is up to us to control them.
6. I believe calling your fellow human ,(a Feral Human) appalling and distasteful. Unless you feel you are superior to every other human!
Regards:Evil72

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Im fine with humane capture as exists according to srd. Non native human =feral no? Our numbers run unchecked and number in the millions. destroying ,wetlands, lakes and rivers for a century or two. Yet a thousand horse that have cohabitated with the free range game for over two centuries needs controlled . Hmm some one has a bone to pick with these mostly harmless horses.

Wow, you lost me again Fish Gunner with that ramble.

On one hand, it seems you support continued management as practiced prior to 2012, presumably with a population goal around their current level of less than 1000?

With the way these things breed, and their low predation rate, that means you support the trapping and shipping to slaughter of easily 200 horses per year?

On the other hand, you seem so caught up on your own personal version of horse history that you side with those who would put these species under some form of protection with the government. This would result in a horse population explosion and no effective management until they were no longer "endangered" or "at risk".

You seem kind of confused. What do you believe in, control of feral horses or protection of wild horses? Those are the two positions on this argument.

BTW, your "feral human" concept is highly offensive. You should think it through a little more carefully. Unless you believe Europeans and Native Americans are a different species. Humans have been on North America for at least 10,000 years. Migrations within a species does not make one group "feral".

[Bluedog]

Feral horse Ecology within Alberta Easterern Slopes
Presenter Edward W Bork, phD. Professor
Cochrane ranch house Februrary 28, 2014 5:00 pm to 9:00 pm $35 includes dinner
More details
www.mdbighorn.ca
Bluedog

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by evil72

1. Elk were never extinct .
2. The Non F. Humans(Natives) were the ones to make WILD HORSES extinct in the first place,(a few thousand years ago)not long after immigrating to North America from current day Russia. So your point is??
3. There was 1200 head of F. Horses from the Clear Water R. to the Red Deer R. the last time I talked to a person that counted them. + or - That is not counting the rest of the Eastern Slopes!
4. What would your position be if Asian Carp showed up in your fav. Trout stream? Love them and leave them???
5. If the Spanish and other F. Humans,(as you call US),reintroduced the F. Horses to N. America ,then it is up to us to control them.
6. I believe calling your fellow human ,(a Feral Human) appalling and distasteful. Unless you feel you are superior to every other human!
Regards:Evil72

No we have natives here, the Europeans and there descendents are not native.?? The horse is not native . Apples &apples I am of European desent and am happily feral . if I returned to my island id be native . Unlucky after many generations the horse is still feral ??

[Backwoods Runner]

All the big trucks west of Rocky Mtn. Hse. seem to be keeping their population in check. A couple dead ones every week. For being wild they sure like staying close to the highway. Maybe we should build a fence along the highway like Banff to keep the wild animals off the highways. NOT!

Put them back in a fence where they belong!

[evil72]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

No we have natives here, the Europeans and there descendents are not native.?? The horse is not native . Apples &apples I am of European desent and am happily feral . if I returned to my island id be native . Unlucky after many generations the horse is still feral ??

Hello: Fishgunner
The Natives here are immigrants ! Only been here 12-13,000 yrs or so,and probably genocided the people that were here already. There is proof!!
The Horse is still Feral because ,it is not native to North America, let alone Alberta. Jeeeeeeze!
Any where there are F. Horses today, from the Red Deer R. to the Brazeau there has been a Horse Ranch, First Nation's Reserve, Outfitter and Forestry Post.
FWIW! I am seeing F. Horses ,places that 20 years ago there was not any of them. Hwy. 11 Stolberg, Hwy.752, west of Cow Lake,Sunchild Hwy. from the Baptise R.to the Brazaeu R. and now in Crimson Lake Provincial Park. some of these Horses have halters grown into their faces & heads. Couple hundred years of genetics I guess!!
Regards:Evil72
Fish Lots & Fish Well:

P.S. Are you allowed back to your Native Island??

[creeky]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

Feral horse Ecology within Alberta Easterern Slopes
Presenter Edward W Bork, phD. Professor
Cochrane ranch house Februrary 28, 2014 5:00 pm to 9:00 pm $35 includes dinner
More details
www.mdbighorn.ca
Bluedog

Hi Bluedog, the link you provided has no information about the feral horse presentation?

Thanks Creeky….

[V_1]

The solution is ...a sausage and bone meal. End of story.

[fish gunner]

Cant find any written records of alberta at first contact without the horse. So no non native person has ever been in Alberta when the free roaming horse did not exist. So the horse is mearly reintroduced by man (like suffield elk and most bison )
I have no issue with a science based humane capture poulation control if the horse is proven to be detrimental to the ecosystem , however since the horse from our (non native) pov has always existed and no record of an ecosystem without the horse exists proof would be tough. It been a slice kids nice to see a free roaming horse thread go 5pages with no poo slinging.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Cant find any written records of alberta at first contact without the horse. So no non native person has ever been in Alberta when the free roaming horse did not exist. So the horse is mearly reintroduced by man (like suffield elk and most bison )
I have no issue with a science based humane capture poulation control if the horse is proven to be detrimental to the ecosystem , however since the horse from our (non native) pov has always existed and no record of an ecosystem without the horse exists proof would be tough. It been a slice kids nice to see a free roaming horse thread go 5pages with no poo slinging.

Again, we're not asking for records of no horses, we're asking for specific records of horses in specific places at a specific time. Which you don't have. The available records indicate feral horse herds in the foothills are all sourced from feral European-introduced stock. There is no evidence to support your version of pre-existing wild herds in the area under discussion.

You don't seem to realize you've ended up being a tool of the WHOA crowd by promoting the myth of "wild" horses. If they were to ever be officially labelled as wild it would mean legal protection for the beasts and no chance of reasonable population control. If a species received "at-risk" or endangered or heritage designation, you can bet shipping a few hundred a year to a slaughterhouse would be completely off the table.

If you really do support reasonable control measures then these horses need to remain under designation as a feral animal. You seem to want to have things both ways ("wild" horses with continued trapping), and that's just not possible.

The horse-lovers at least realize why they're fighting to have them labelled as heritage or wild (they don't want any more slaughterhouse trips), but you seem confused.

[Caleb]

Here's some facts for those interested.
http://esrd.alberta.ca/lands-forests...Apr26-2013.pdf

Fun quotes:
"Free roaming horses on public land are descendants of domestic stock, which ESRD considers to be feral animals. High fecundity, low rates of capture and higher numbers of escaped and illegally released horses have recently resulted in significant increases in the population and areal distribution of feral horses. Since 2007 the range of these animals has expanded beyond areas traditionally occupied – the horse counts conducted by the GOA in the Eastern Slopes have similarly increased from an estimated 200 animals in 2006 to over 1,000 in 2011"

Holy crap, a 5x increase in population in 5 years, and spreading to new areas? Wish we could get elk to do the same in those areas. These feral horses sound a little, what's the word...... invasive.

So a species of invasive 800 lb herbivores (that totally don't eat elk feed, uh uh, no way, and totally make friends with nearby ranchers and farmers) with no natural predators is spreading in the foothills and some people consider that just part of the natural ecosystem? Doesn't sound right to me.

"Over the last few years as horse numbers appear to have increased, ESRD
staff have experienced a corresponding increase in complaints from grazing disposition holders, the timber industry, municipalities, RCMP and local landowners with respect to the impacts of feral horses. "

Sounds like the better you get to know these things, the more likely you are to complain about them.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

Feral horse Ecology within Alberta Easterern Slopes
Presenter Edward W Bork, phD. Professor
Cochrane ranch house Februrary 28, 2014 5:00 pm to 9:00 pm $35 includes dinner
More details
www.mdbighorn.ca
Bluedog

Found a paper this guy was involved in recently that sounds like the basis for the talk. Interesting.
http://www.ace-lab.org/_documents/Gi...elandMngmt.pdf

Fun quote:
"Overall, our results indicate that in southwest Alberta, relatively small amounts of the landscape are preferentially selected by horses, particularly grasslands and shrublands across all seasons, and during winter, harvested conifer forests (cutblocks). "

So horses like to spend all year grazing on elk wintering habitat. Couldn't be any problem with that, could there? Horses eat so little!

Then this quote caught my eye:
"Moreover, this process may be further complicated by ongoing grassland declines due to shrub encroachment (Burkinshaw and Bork 2009). "

So I looked up the abstract for that paper and got another great quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19588191
"Our results indicate shrub encroachment has been extensive and significantly reduced forage availability to domestic livestock and wildlife, and will increase the difficulty of conserving remaining grasslands. "

I followed a link on the page to another shrub encroachment abstract and got this fun quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19501450
"The prime cause of the current and recent encroachment appears to be high and constant levels of grass herbivory by domestic animals."

So let's put the argument to rest that the feral horses are harmless or have a positive impact on the natural ecosystem. They clearly have a net negative impact, and we need to manage the population in order to balance the benefits of feral horses (if any) with the costs of supporting them on an already stressed and fragmented natural landscape.

This is the discussion to have. And until the horse lovers put their money where their mouths are or can define some clear benefits to Albertans that the ferals bring, then the spread of the animals needs to be controlled and population numbers hard-capped at a safe level. I like the AFGA's number of 300-400. Close to historical average, and more than enough for any horse-lovers to go out and admire them if they are so inclined. I just seem to run into more people looking for elk, moose, or deer than horses out there. Funny that.

[Roughneck Country]

Didn't have an opinion on Ferel horses until I was sheep hunting one fall and saw 7 of them walk right through the middle of a sheep pasture at the top of the mountain! Thinking there might be a few too many especially when they are eating sheep feed

Just wondering... I know you can't shoot them and leave them, but can people shoot them and eat them under the current rules?

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by Caleb

Found a paper this guy was involved in recently that sounds like the basis for the talk. Interesting.
http://www.ace-lab.org/_documents/Gi...elandMngmt.pdf

Fun quote:
"Overall, our results indicate that in southwest Alberta, relatively small amounts of the landscape are preferentially selected by horses, particularly grasslands and shrublands across all seasons, and during winter, harvested conifer forests (cutblocks). "

So horses like to spend all year grazing on elk wintering habitat. Couldn't be any problem with that, could there? Horses eat so little!

Then this quote caught my eye:
"Moreover, this process may be further complicated by ongoing grassland declines due to shrub encroachment (Burkinshaw and Bork 2009). "

So I looked up the abstract for that paper and got another great quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19588191
"Our results indicate shrub encroachment has been extensive and significantly reduced forage availability to domestic livestock and wildlife, and will increase the difficulty of conserving remaining grasslands. "

I followed a link on the page to another shrub encroachment abstract and got this fun quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19501450
"The prime cause of the current and recent encroachment appears to be high and constant levels of grass herbivory by domestic animals."

So let's put the argument to rest that the feral horses are harmless or have a positive impact on the natural ecosystem. They clearly have a net negative impact, and we need to manage the population in order to balance the benefits of feral horses (if any) with the costs of supporting them on an already stressed and fragmented natural landscape.

This is the discussion to have. And until the horse lovers put their money where their mouths are or can define some clear benefits to Albertans that the ferals bring, then the spread of the animals needs to be controlled and population numbers hard-capped at a safe level. I like the AFGA's number of 300-400. Close to historical average, and more than enough for any horse-lovers to go out and admire them if they are so inclined. I just seem to run into more people looking for elk, moose, or deer than horses out there. Funny that.

Bang on Caleb ..I implied that 4 days and 150 posts ago, in shorter words..we all know there is an out of control and mismanaged feral problem . Lets send ESRD a practical solution and public opinion ..you nominated and write it ..

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by Kauna

Bang on Caleb ..I implied that 4 days and 150 posts ago, in shorter words..we all know there is an out of control and mismanaged feral problem . Lets send ESRD a practical solution and public opinion ..you nominated and write it ..

The problem is clear to most outdoorsmen, but some horse-lovers just refuse to recognize the facts. You at least tried.

The AFGA is/was involved in the feral horse stakeholder consultation process with ESRD. I'm a local chapter member but not up to speed on the AFGA's position or progress in regards to this issue lately. Sounds they proposed or were close to proposing a population number of around 200 head as a target for management, according to the AO article from October 2013.

I think AFGA spearheading something on this issue would carry more weight and would potentially have a greater impact on decision-makers. I'll look into what is happening on this front.

[Winch101]

Not to derail but last week at IKEA I said to the Buffet server...

I'll have the meatball special
Anything she said ....
Well if you could make sure I don't get any that
Show the saddle sores I would happy .

Farm these and render and ship to Italy . Profits and proceeds
Go to Conservation. There's no shortage of horses here .
Next Feral Cats And Dogs ......same thing and off to China .

Pretty simple......always glad to help ...

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by Caleb

The problem is clear to most outdoorsmen, but some horse-lovers just refuse to recognize the facts. You at least tried.

The AFGA is/was involved in the feral horse stakeholder consultation process with ESRD. I'm a local chapter member but not up to speed on the AFGA's position or progress in regards to this issue lately. Sounds they proposed or were close to proposing a population number of around 200 head as a target for management, according to the AO article from October 2013.

I think AFGA spearheading something on this issue would carry more weight and would potentially have a greater impact on decision-makers. I'll look into what is happening on this front.

good enough ..you would be a great representative

[evil72]

Thankyou: Caleb for digging up the cold hard facts!! Kudos to you sir!

Thankyou too: Kauna now we might get some where! Well done!

I think i will bring up something to my local A.F.&G., to maybe take to the Alberta conference.

Thanx again: Evil72
Shoot Lots & Shoot Well:

[diamonddave]

My only question is, Evil.....which user name did you go by last? Not being rude just curious. Shoot me a pm if you want.

[fish gunner]

This should end most of the disscusion http://m.rmoutlook.com/article/20121...JQMArticlegood read if your open minded .
Oh yeh SNAP.

[Ukrainankiller]

Boy's, boy's,boy's, no need to argue here. I was talking to a real close friend who is a fish and wildlife officer in the GP area tonight and this topic came up. He said not to worry cause the boys from the saltwater provinces will take care of this. He said he pulled over two different hunting parties this year and both groups were just proud as can be that they filled their cow moose tags. Upon further inspection he said both groups had killed ferrel horses and thought they we're moose. He said they had them all tagged up and everything. He said everything was to the book except wrong animal species so he just laughed to himself said congrats on the hunt and drove away. So don't worry boys as long as the boys from down east keep pulling cow moose draws they will gone soon enough.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

This should end most of the disscusion http://m.rmoutlook.com/article/20121...JQMArticlegood read if your open minded .
Oh yeh SNAP.

You do realize that's just a letter to the editor, right?

So you want a new national park created for horses in the Alberta foothills like Sable Island?

FYI, I've been reading Notzke's work as used by WHOAS. She doesn't appear to be doing any actual research, she just presents her interpretations of other people's results. Those statements in her letter are just her opinions and interpretations, not all are factual.

If you want to argue the underlying facts, by all means point them out. But her letter does not stand as an authoritative source of information. It's mostly just opinion.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by Ukrainankiller

Boy's, boy's,boy's, no need to argue here. I was talking to a real close friend who is a fish and wildlife officer in the GP area tonight and this topic came up. He said not to worry cause the boys from the saltwater provinces will take care of this. He said he pulled over two different hunting parties this year and both groups were just proud as can be that they filled their cow moose tags. Upon further inspection he said both groups had killed ferrel horses and thought they we're moose. He said they had them all tagged up and everything. He said everything was to the book except wrong animal species so he just laughed to himself said congrats on the hunt and drove away. So don't worry boys as long as the boys from down east keep pulling cow moose draws they will gone soon enough.

Never heard that one before.

That one is older than I am and wasn't true the first time I heard it.

[Tundra Monkey]

That being said.....I open up every albino moose thread I see....just in case

[Ukrainankiller]

Originally Posted by sjemac

Never heard that one before.

That one is older than I am and wasn't true the first time I heard it.

Don't be mad at me cause your brothers shot them. Just saying. Good on you for sticking up for them. Lmao

[Dirt2oil]

Originally Posted by Ukrainankiller

Boy's, boy's,boy's, no need to argue here. I was talking to a real close friend who is a fish and wildlife officer in the GP area tonight and this topic came up. He said not to worry cause the boys from the saltwater provinces will take care of this. He said he pulled over two different hunting parties this year and both groups were just proud as can be that they filled their cow moose tags. Upon further inspection he said both groups had killed ferrel horses and thought they we're moose. He said they had them all tagged up and everything. He said everything was to the book except wrong animal species so he just laughed to himself said congrats on the hunt and drove away. So don't worry boys as long as the boys from down east keep pulling cow moose draws they will gone soon enough.

You could have a jigs dinner with a Horse b'y!! Salt Horse!! lard Jesus me son lets try it.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Caleb

You do realize that's just a letter to the editor, right?

So you want a new national park created for horses in the Alberta foothills like Sable Island?

FYI, I've been reading Notzke's work as used by WHOAS. She doesn't appear to be doing any actual research, she just presents her interpretations of other people's results. Those statements in her letter are just her opinions and interpretations, not all are factual.

If you want to argue the underlying facts, by all means point them out. But her letter does not stand as an authoritative source of information. It's mostly just opinion.

There is nothing scientific nor unbiased in Notzke's publications on Feral Horses. She provides a great source of misinformation for those who desire to baffle through H.S.


So much for FishGunner manning up to losing the bet. No surprise....



AFGA is very active in a working group attempting to achieve a Feral Horse Management Plan. Meetings are ongoing and new updates should be out this spring/summer.

Linked is the April/2013 AESRD Consultation Report on Alberta Feral Horses.
The document is secured so you will have to read it at the link, no cut and paste.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/lands-forests...Apr26-2013.pdf

[Red Bullets]

[QUOTE=fish gunner;2273860]Cant find any written records of alberta at first contact without the horse. So no non native person has ever been in Alberta when the free roaming horse did not exist. QUOTE]


Not to rehash older threads but I have read the whole thread as it evolved. I commented earler (post 121) that:

When Henry Kelsey was here in alberta/saskatchewan territory in 1691 everyone was walking. No one had horses and there were no 'free range' horses running wild with the buffalo or elk.

I am refering to a book called,
"First in the West, the story of Henry Kelsey. written by James Whillans."

The writer makes a statement that Kelsey was traveling 40 years before the horse was in the west. Several of Kelseys journals only make mention of walking. Not one mention of any horses in his 2 years spent in the west. It is believed that Anthony Henday used roughly the same routes 50 years after Kelsey. I believe Henday was on foot too on his journey to the territory in 1754.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

There is nothing scientific nor unbiased in Notzke's publications on Feral Horses. She provides a great source of misinformation for those who desire to baffle through H.S.


So much for FishGunner manning up to losing the bet. No surprise....



AFGA is very active in a working group attempting to achieve a Feral Horse Management Plan. Meetings are ongoing and new updates should be out this spring/summer.

Linked is the April/2013 AESRD Consultation Report on Alberta Feral Horses.
The document is secured so you will have to read it at the link, no cut and paste.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/lands-forests...Apr26-2013.pdf

Lost ? bet? ive supported my position repeatedy with other information . The above link suggests dna evidence and as I have suggested the horse was simply reintroduced by man . Im joe palooka here doing two minute searches on the e net and as such have been able to support every point ive suggested with others literature. The fact of the matter is the point is contested hottly as to the status of the free roaming horse. Most poulations outside of alberta are given heritage or wild status so where I may be the only guy in this tiny room that feels this way ,outside of this tiny room ive already won .

[Red Bullets]

I am not trying to stir any pot in any way but I am just wondering how successful replacing the 'wild horses' of Suffield military block with elk was?

http://www.producer.com/2013/11/mili...-farm-problem/