Reply to APOS sheep statement

[alder]

Originally Posted by SLH

Id say there are two problems the lesser problem is what you just stated there will be rams 4/5 broomed that are not 8.

The bigger problem as nube has said is define "Boomed".

I look forward to you pictures.

Ok, thanks. I don't know that a ram can be 4/5 AND broomed and still not be legal.

Can't Broomed just be "the tip of the horn broken".

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

The ave age of big horn only increased .5 of a year with a full curl rule and dropped harvest substantially in BC. lots of great rams taken here this year Nube, bdub got great rams as well as many others

I thought the number was 1 year, but cant find it right now. Do you have the document that came from.

I do know the increase in 400 since full curl is 1.5 years and for 2014 it is around 2.5 years.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by LMS

Lots of interest and some good discussion. Hope you all belong to the sheep foundation as that will be the best voice for the resident hunter. APOS is a decent organization but the sheep task force obviously consists of people who make a living selling lucrative hunts to both residents and non residents. The generation of a buck is where they loyalty rightfully sits.

APOS is NOT a decent organization. Hasn't been for years, if ever.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by LMS

Lots of interest and some good discussion. Hope you all belong to the sheep foundation as that will be the best voice for the resident hunter. APOS is a decent organization but the sheep task force obviously consists of people who make a living selling lucrative hunts to both residents and non residents. The generation of a buck is where they loyalty rightfully sits.

I am a member but they better start deciding what and who they represent pretty soon. It is difficult to tell where APOS ends and WSF starts and there response to APOS didnt help.

[bdub]

I am not opposed to something like full curl or broomed 4/5 curl on either side. As SLH says, how do you determine broomed. Maybe a possible definition would be the brooming has to intersect the the year and a half annuli. Thats would be fairly easy to determine. I don't think any experienced sheep hunter or educated one couldn't realistically make that call. Just a thought.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by SLH

My thoughts:

Two things again how many of them will exist? Second like Geist says leaving some of these big rams on the mountain is not a bad thing, we don't need to harvest every ram out there. They do have value for the herd aside from the pleasure they give us on the wall. How are we killing all of the rams(big ones)? Go to every breading ground and there is big rams. They all don't come from parks and reserves.
If done to the max we will eventually get to a place where we would almost by necessity have to have a ewe harvest and if a way could be found it would be very good to have a draw for younger rams. Just like Geist suggested in the 70's.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by SLH

I am a member but they better start deciding what and who they represent pretty soon. It is difficult to tell where APOS ends and WSF starts and there response to APOS didnt help.

I'm one too!!!

[alder]

Originally Posted by bdub

I am not opposed to something like full curl or broomed 4/5 curl on either side. As SLH says, how do you determine broomed. Maybe a possible definition would be the brooming has to intersect the the year and a half annuli. Thats would be fairly easy to determine. I don't think any experienced sheep hunter or educated one couldn't realistically make that call. Just a thought.

There must be a publication out there that describes brooming and age. Not to bring up Dalls and Alaska again, but the data there supported the idea that a ram didn't broom until it was older so, if it did, it was ok because it wouldn't make full curl.

So I define broomed as simply broken. I'd like to know if a ram could be both broomed and still be 4/5 and be younger than 8 years. Does anyone have a photo of a ram that fits this and can shut me up? I will if you show me one. I promise.

[alder]

Originally Posted by bdub

I am not opposed to something like full curl or broomed 4/5 curl on either side. As SLH says, how do you determine broomed. Maybe a possible definition would be the brooming has to intersect the the year and a half annuli. Thats would be fairly easy to determine. I don't think any experienced sheep hunter or educated one couldn't realistically make that call. Just a thought.

I like that. Could work, as you say.

[nube]

Originally Posted by alder

Yes, I think that is a good point. You and I know that most will wait and not shoot if it means they can't hunt for 6 years, even if its your first ram. But the Biologists might say that you don't know that's true and they might say that many will still shoot those rams. You and I know that's probably not the case but it could be an argument against your proposal and can argue to dismiss it on those grounds.

Trust me, I don't want any changes period! I'm fine with 4/5. Not because I'm not interested in the resource and it's future, but simply because I question the validity of the research and it's intentions, which I've alluded to in one of my previous posts. I agree, I just don't want Full-Curl because it does not make sense for all the fully mature rams that could never be taken under that rule.

So, I like your idea, and I would petition for it if we want to get that started, but the problem is that it doesn't leave the powers that be with an actionable solution to their interests because they can argue as I've described above.

So, I want to propose a solution that's good for us, and gives them what they are supposedly asking for, which is that we aren't going to shoot sub-prime adults, no? So, if we go with your proposal, which as I said I like and works for me, it still leaves a hole for them to poke against that there will still be a proportion of rams killed by guys who just want to hunt once every 6 years, and that's not a good enough stopper on the loss of those rams.

Please tell me why what I proposed as 4/5 AND Broomed doesn't work. Walk me through the scenario, if you don't mind. I can't think of why it shouldn't make them happy. Unless you tell me that a ram can be 4/5, Broomed on the 4/5 side and still be less than 8 yo. Which it may be, I just don't know.

How do you tell if a ram is broomed? All my rams with lamb tips are broomed to some extent. If Haven't seen a ram with needle point tips yet and never will lol

[alder]

Originally Posted by SLH

I am a member but they better start deciding what and who they represent pretty soon. It is difficult to tell where APOS ends and WSF starts and there response to APOS didnt help.

If we can come up with a unified position to take on this forum we can certainly submit a proposal independently of other organizations that are hampered by political affiliations. I'd like to do that. If we can get a couple of hundred signatures there is certainly a resident voice to be heard. Has anyone started a survey thread on possible solutions to propose to see where most are aligned? Maybe it's been done already. I just couldn't find it. And I'm not talking about one that includes keep the rule at 4/5, because even though I'd love to see it stay this way, it's not going to happen.

[nube]

Originally Posted by SLH

Part of the arguement is that a vast majority are one and done so this may have an effect but is it enough?

Worth a try before making a drastic change like full curl or draw I would think. If nothing changes then time to do more.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by bdub

I am not opposed to something like full curl or broomed 4/5 curl on either side. As SLH says, how do you determine broomed. Maybe a possible definition would be the brooming has to intersect the the year and a half annuli. Thats would be fairly easy to determine. I don't think any experienced sheep hunter or educated one couldn't realistically make that call. Just a thought.

nube

[nube]

Originally Posted by bdub

I am not opposed to something like full curl or broomed 4/5 curl on either side. As SLH says, how do you determine broomed. Maybe a possible definition would be the brooming has to intersect the the year and a half annuli. Thats would be fairly easy to determine. I don't think any experienced sheep hunter or educated one couldn't realistically make that call. Just a thought.

I also don't mind this sort of thinking as well. It is worth an option instead of straight full curl only.

[alder]

Originally Posted by nube

How do you tell if a ram is broomed? All my rams with lamb tips are broomed to some extent. If Haven't seen a ram with needle point tips yet and never will lol

Right, OK, I get it. There's always a spot of broken tip at least which wouldn't be enough to justify what we really mean by a mature ram. Bdub proposed something that is greater than just the lamb tips. Maybe all the lamb tip gone? That might be too hard to see in the field. Uh, I don't know. Impossible then?

[nube]

Originally Posted by alder

There must be a publication out there that describes brooming and age. Not to bring up Dalls and Alaska again, but the data there supported the idea that a ram didn't broom until it was older so, if it did, it was ok because it wouldn't make full curl.

So I define broomed as simply broken. I'd like to know if a ram could be both broomed and still be 4/5 and be younger than 8 years. Does anyone have a photo of a ram that fits this and can shut me up? I will if you show me one. I promise.

Look at the ram I killed this year alder and feel free of posting the pic of it if you want. Fish and Wildlife told me 8 years old my ram was and I laughed. It's heavily broomed and really isn't much over legal is what the fish cop said to me

[bdub]

Originally Posted by nube

Look at the ram I killed this year alder and feel free of posting the pic of it if you want. Fish and Wildlife told me 8 years old my ram was and I laughed. It's heavily broomed and really isn't much over legal is what the fish cop said to me

post a pic or link i can't find it on here.

[nube]

Originally Posted by alder

Right, OK, I get it. There's always a spot of broken tip at least which wouldn't be enough to justify what we really mean by a mature ram. Brubeck proposed something that is greater than just the lamb tips. Maybe all the lamb tip gone? That might be too hard to see in the field. Uh, I don't know. Impossible then?

Yup it is impossible in a way because it is all left up the officer to judge. Too much grey area

[nube]

HOW OLD???

[SLH]

Originally Posted by alder

There must be a publication out there that describes brooming and age. Not to bring up Dalls and Alaska again, but the data there supported the idea that a ram didn't broom until it was older so, if it did, it was ok because it wouldn't make full curl.

So I define broomed as simply broken. I'd like to know if a ram could be both broomed and still be 4/5 and be younger than 8 years. Does anyone have a photo of a ram that fits this and can shut me up? I will if you show me one. I promise.

Not sure but Id say the reason the broomed rule was implemented is because its easier to count rings on thin horns


http://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/se...eb#index=frame

Not sure that link will work or not but I do know there will be an arguement about its age.

Is it broomed?

Is it less than 8

[bdub]

Originally Posted by alder

Right, OK, I get it. There's always a spot of broken tip at least which wouldn't be enough to justify what we really mean by a mature ram. Brubeck proposed something that is greater than just the lamb tips. Maybe all the lamb tip gone? That might be too hard to see in the field. Uh, I don't know. Impossible then?

It's easy to see that 1.5 year annuli if they still have tips. It would be an extremely poor sighted sheep hunter that couldn't determine lamb tips or not.

[SLH]

Holy ****!

Paint me green.

Id go 8 or 9 1/2

What did they age him at?

I missed your first post you must think its older

[alder]

Originally Posted by nube

Look at the ram I killed this year alder and feel free of posting the pic of it if you want. Fish and Wildlife told me 8 years old my ram was and I laughed. It's heavily broomed and really isn't much over legal is what the fish cop said to me

I know. I love that ram! In my dreams I get to take one just like that but that dream is slowly fading away because he'd never be legal under full curl. The fish cops could be re-educated. It wouldn't hurt.

I think your ram is a great example of one that deconstructs the biologists argument. A mature ram is not found very often as this perfect geometrical configuration of a full circle that is almost cartoonish. Your ram was easily over 10 years old....and a biologist, who is supposed to be the authority should back that up!!!!

[bdub]

8.5 nube. Got a back picture showing the change in angle of the segments?

Beauty cadomin ram.

[alder]

Originally Posted by nube

HOW OLD???

Ten plus.

[Lr1000]

10.5 years

I see nothing wrong with our situation now. We have a bit for everyone. It's still taking guys about 4-7 years to even tag there first sheep on average. Even if these are 6-7 year old sheep. For those looking for a older cranker Rams, well we have those two. Bdub and nube along with dozens of others that tagged up on amazing 10+ year old sheep proved that this year. No those Rams aren't on every mnt or in every drainage. That's have the thrill of sheep hunting. From what I've noticed hiking into the winter grounds there is no shortage of class 4 Rams in the rut after the season is over either. No matter what those stupid 4-6 year old sheep are going to rut had and try to steal a ewe and get his ass kicked. That's just sheep for you IMO.

[alder]

Originally Posted by bdub

It's easy to see that 1.5 year annuli if they still have tips. It would be an extremely poor sighted sheep hunter that couldn't determine lamb tips or not.

Ok, I just want to make sure I understand. So you were saying what if broomed was no sign of the 1.5 year annulus remaining? Please confirm or if I've mistaken what you meant. I'm looking for a solution here.

Possibilities summary:
1) stays at 4/5, but time penalty to draw next tag if not full curl.
2) broomed AND 4/5. Broomed is all the 1.5 year tip gone.
3) anyone? Please add.

[Lr1000]

Might be easy to tell if the tip is gone but the whole 1.5 year. That's heavily broomed and could be hard to tell.

[alder]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

10.5 years

I see nothing wrong with our situation now. We have a bit for everyone. It's still taking guys about 4-7 years to even tag there first sheep on average. Even if these are 6-7 year old sheep. For those looking for a older cranker Rams, well we have those two. Bdub and nube along with dozens of others that tagged up on amazing 10+ year old sheep proved that this year. No those Rams aren't on every mnt or in every drainage. That's have the thrill of sheep hunting. From what I've noticed hiking into the winter grounds there is no shortage of class 4 Rams in the rut after the season is over either. No matter what those stupid 4-6 year old sheep are going to rut had and try to steal a ewe and get his ass kicked. That's just sheep for you IMO.

I agree. I don't want the change and I think you've stated what a lot of us feel. If they insist on making a change because a biologist has a peer reviewed paper that gives them ammo to support the direction of a policy change ( for whatever reason - and I have my own opinion on that) then we have to play ball and our best chance is to enter as a negotiating party. I think they couldn't care less if we just said, keep it the same. Better to take their position and throw it back at them. They want to make sheep older? Ok, we do also. But that doesn't mean that we have to grow sheep to look like nat geo poster animals. The broomed old ones, which are most of the old ones, should be accessible to hunters. Craft a policy that preserves the opportunity to hunt them, not just some photographer's ideal of full curl that is not attainable.

[alder]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

Might be easy to tell if the tip is gone but the whole 1.5 year. That's heavily broomed and could be hard to tell.

usually you can see the 1.5 year ring if its there, no? So if you can't see it, then it's broomed off, no?