Interesting Take on TO Streetcar Shooting

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by NEWB

There are many ways to check a street car with glass windows and open doors if it is empty......

X-Ray glasses for instance?

Seriously Dude.
I agree that it would seem to be a bit offside but there is no practicable way that the police could know that streetcar was empty.
Someone could have been laying bleeding on the floor...out of sight.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by NEWB

You're not familiar with street cars or common carriers are you...

You would think that if someone was injured or killed on the street car, one of the passangers released would mention someting to the police or someone in charge... hmm....

This was not an empty street car to begin with...

Oh yeah...people running in panick...fearing for their lives usually will take the time to note every stringer on the bus and make a head count.
Then once outside and safe they will re-group and do a roll call jut to make sure nobody was left behind,

You are grasping at straws.
Most of those folks couldn't even make a good estimate of how many people were on that car let alone whether or not someone is missing....unless that person happened to be travelling with them.

Coukd you keep track of 2 dozen strangers that you'd spent a few minutes ignoring...in the middle of a stampede for safety?

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Oh yeah...people running in panick...fearing for their lives usually will take the time to note every stringer on the bus and make a head count.
Then once outside and safe they will re-group and do a roll call jut to make sure nobody was left behind,


Coukd you keep track of 2 dozen strangers that you'd spent a few minutes ignoring...in the middle of a stampede for safety?

You could

[silverdoctor]

This was an execution, slice it and dice it in any fashion you want.

Shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more then tase him. Yep, golf clap.

Safe to assume nothing is going to come of this, the officer will be cleared of any wrongdoing - and it will be just another dangerous precedent for police in this coutry to use in the future.



I find it funny that a 20 hour standoff with a man that had a massive gun collection was shot with a rubber bullet - but a kid on a streetcar with a knife gets 9 rounds and a taser to boot.

[petew]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

X-Ray glasses for instance?

Seriously Dude.
I agree that it would seem to be a bit offside but there is no practicable way that the police could know that streetcar was empty.
Someone could have been laying bleeding on the floor...out of sight.

So the natural thing the trigger happy fool did was spray 6 more bullets into the guy that is now laying on the floor? Good thing there wasn't a passenger lying on the floor. Yea, Worship the murderer if you want, but it was murder.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

This was an execution, slice it and dice it in any fashion you want.

Shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more then tase him. Yep, golf clap.

Safe to assume nothing is going to come of this, the officer will be cleared of any wrongdoing - and it will be just another dangerous precedent for police in this coutry to use in the future.



I find it funny that a 20 hour standoff with a man that had a massive gun collection was shot with a rubber bullet - but a kid on a streetcar with a knife gets 9 rounds and a taser to boot.

Totally different situation, If you don't see the difference, you are hard of seeing.
But I will help you with the main thing. Private residence, public streetcar.

[smith88]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Totally different situation, If you don't see the difference, you are hard of seeing.
But I will help you with the main thing. Private residence, public streetcar.

Which would be more dangerous for police to enter?

Please note that one officer in Montreal had already been shot but not wounded.

[connexion123]

What I don't get about all of this is when he was the only occupant of the streetcar, why not send in a dog, lob a stun grenade, tear gas grenade, or pepperball the crap out of him.

9 shots is excessive, as the initial 3 if hitting centre mass, would have done a lot of damage. He's a pretty skinny kid. 3 centre mass would make him change his mind.

I'll pose this:

If a man breaks into my house with a knife and I tell him to get on the ground or I'll shoot him, and he comes at me, and I put 3 into him at close range and he dies, likely after being arrested and treated as a criminal and having my guns seized, I'll stand before a jury of my peers an I have a decent feeling I'll get acquitted.

If I shoot him 9 times, I'll likely go to jail.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by smith88

Which would be more dangerous for police to enter?

Please note that one officer in Montreal had already been shot but not wounded.

He had been in trouble before(they knew a bit about him), isolated and alone. Had time. Was very lucky. Time was on their side in that situation.

you threaten someone outside your house you might get lucky and survive. Was he holding a firearm or weapon when he was shot with a rubber bullet(I don't know)? It went 20 hours.

Still the main difference is what I said Public streetcar.

Street car was public he threatened people with a knife and would not drop it. At the time they may not be aware of who if any were still on the car. Walking back to officers with a knife when they are only a short distance away was not a good thing to do. If the public is present or even may be present it changes everything!

[BeeGuy]

The number of shots fired is for the most part, inconsequential.

Officers are trained only to shoot to kill and to aim center mass.

There are no warning shots, and no shooting to disable.

If it comes to the point of firing the weapon, they will continue to fire until the target is neutralized.


The primary concern with the number of shots fired would be whether or not errant shots pose a risk to by-standers.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

You could

I doubt it.

Well...maybe the young a pretty ones.
I'd be concerned that they might need...ummm....comforting

Just my caring and nurturing nature I guess.
Always thinking of others...

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by petew

So the natural thing the trigger happy fool did was spray 6 more bullets into the guy that is now laying on the floor? Good thing there wasn't a passenger lying on the floor. Yea, Worship the murderer if you want, but it was murder.

First off...there is no need to be snotty.

All I'm trying to do is explain how deadly force is exercised because a few people...yourself included seem to have difficulty understanding that.

I've said several times now that the shooting itself seems offside.
There was no obvious immediate threat to others that we could see.

That said...I'm pretty sure they would notice someone laying underneath the guy.

A decission was made.
It may have been the wrong one.
It appears that it was made in haste but... you DO NOT second guess yourself in a gun fight once initiated.
Once you commit...you follow through... thats how they are trained and conditioned.

The idiot as you call him changed mags and continued firing without even thinking about it.
He may not have even been aware that he had changed magazines until he checked his gear after it ended.

That's the difference between training and conditioning.
His actions after that first round were fired were almost entirely muscle memory and reflex and automated response and most certainly barely involved any conscious thought... unlike the shooting from the hip that you did in the post quoted above.

Further...if someone was lying on the floor bleeding.... how would you feel about them letting that person slowly bleed out and die when there were opportunities to take the guy down and save them?

Would everyone be harping about how the cops let that person die..when they could have and should have done something?

Someone had to make a decission and they did.
We were not there.
It will all come out in the wash and we hope that they will be held accountable if fault is determined.

Course as you know....its far easier to sit back and play devils advocate regardless of which way it cuts.

[petew]

You justify the murder saying there could have still been people in the street car, now you justify it saying the executioner knew there wasn't. ??did you see the Video??
I hope you are not a cop with this attitude.

[Matt L.]

Possibly BDB. But unless you've interviewed the officer in question, that's speculation at best. What leads me to suspect execution is the use of a taser after shooting the kid nine times.

[TreeGuy]

Originally Posted by connexion123

I'll pose this:

If a man breaks into my house with a knife and I tell him to get on the ground or I'll shoot him, and he comes at me, and I put 3 into him at close range and he dies, likely after being arrested and treated as a criminal and having my guns seized, I'll stand before a jury of my peers an I have a decent feeling I'll get acquitted.

If I shoot him 9 times, I'll likely go to jail.

Excellent post!

Now imagine having a solid visual on the perp and having him surrounded in an enclosure with about a dozen of your heavily armed pals....not ONE of which felt threatened enough to shoot.

The only 'muscle memory conditioning' here likely comes from the dummy drawing his weapon over and over and over again in a mirror pretending to be a hard azz.......

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by connexion123

What I don't get about all of this is when he was the only occupant of the streetcar, why not send in a dog, lob a stun grenade, tear gas grenade, or pepperball the crap out of him.

9 shots is excessive, as the initial 3 if hitting centre mass, would have done a lot of damage. He's a pretty skinny kid. 3 centre mass would make him change his mind.

I'll pose this:

If a man breaks into my house with a knife and I tell him to get on the ground or I'll shoot him, and he comes at me, and I put 3 into him at close range and he dies, likely after being arrested and treated as a criminal and having my guns seized, I'll stand before a jury of my peers an I have a decent feeling I'll get acquitted.

If I shoot him 9 times, I'll likely go to jail.

What if he doesn't put the knife down? What if he is 8 feet away on your stairs? What if he takes a step closer and is still holding the knife? What about the look on his face, his eyes? What about his body language? What about what he is saying? What if he is on drugs?

[petew]

"The only 'muscle memory conditioning' here likely comes from the dummy drawing his weapon over and over and over again in a mirror pretending to be a hard azz......."
Probably naked too. except for a Black cowboy hat and Boots.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by petew

You justify the murder saying there could have still been people in the street car, now you justify it saying the executioner knew there wasn't. ??did you see the Video??
I hope you are not a cop with this attitude.

So why didn't you answer my question rather than try to inject disinformation and put words in my mouth?
Is it because you committed to something without considering that possability and now you don't know how to talk your way out of it?

Because it sure looks that way when you try to bully and bluff.

Shall I counter your slight with one of my own?
Perhaps asking you if you are a knife weilding pervert...suggesting that is why you take the dead mans side?

Would that make this a better debate?
Is that how adults exchange ideas and have rational discourse?

I have already stated my position on this several times.
It seems fishy and must be investigated.
My feeling is that they were too quick to the trigger.
The posts that you insist upon cherry picking were only made to address the question of why so many rounds might be fired once the shooting started...not to justify the shooting itself.
I made them because I have some training and experience to offer in that regard.

Why is it so hard to understand the difference between those two things?

With your attitude, lack of objectivity and abstract thought ...I sure hope you never end up on a jury or in a situation where rapid critical thinking and action are required on behalf of another.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Possibly BDB. But unless you've interviewed the officer in question, that's speculation at best. What leads me to suspect execution is the use of a taser after shooting the kid nine times.

Sure it is but much of it is experience based speculation.
Besides... there is no shortage of speculation on both sides of this argument.

I agree that the shooting appears to be offside.
I said that in my first post and several times since.
We shall see in the fullness of time and when all the evidence and testimony has been reviewed.

Both videos are poor and I am not comfortable that we know all that there is to be known from those images alone.
We also do not know waht else might ahve been at play. It may be that the officer that fired was ordered to...or thet he followed proceedure.
It might be that forces dictated routine to taze folks even if they have been shot.

Who knows?
I don't.

I was simply trying to address what I percieved to be a fairly general misunderstanding of what deadly force means from the perspective of someone trained and conditioned to use it.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by petew

"The only 'muscle memory conditioning' here likely comes from the dummy drawing his weapon over and over and over again in a mirror pretending to be a hard azz......."
Probably naked too. except for a Black cowboy hat and Boots.

You've obviously know nothing about training men for these sorts of conditions and you've obviously never participated in training at that level yourself.

It is ALL about muscle memory.
Its all about conditioning.

People who hesitate freeze and die.

[petew]

sorry, I don't take the personal attack bait .
and you are probably right about not wanting me on your jury if I saw that video . Big Time.

[silverdoctor]

“The public would be much better served by an inquest than a charge,” lawyer Peter Brauti said in an interview Saturday.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...04-080358.html

[ice]

I personally don't believe what the media publishes and what actually happened consist.
That being said. I don't trust Canada's police force.

[ice]

We pay to be protected when in reality we just get served

[Clgy_Dave2.0]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

So why didn't you answer my question rather than try to inject disinformation and put words in my mouth?
Is it because you committed to something without considering that possability and now you don't know how to talk your way out of it?

Because it sure looks that way when you try to bully and bluff.

Shall I counter your slight with one of my own?
Perhaps asking you if you are a knife weilding pervert...suggesting that is why you take the dead mans side?

Would that make this a better debate?
Is that how adults exchange ideas and have rational discourse?

I have already stated my position on this several times.
It seems fishy and must be investigated.
My feeling is that they were too quick to the trigger.
The posts that you insist upon cherry picking were only made to address the question of why so many rounds might be fired once the shooting started...not to justify the shooting itself.
I made them because I have some training and experience to offer in that regard.

Why is it so hard to understand the difference between those two things?

With your attitude, lack of objectivity and abstract thought ...I sure hope you never end up on a jury or in a situation where rapid critical thinking and action are required on behalf of another.

I know we've had our moments, but that post is the most clearly articulated, and well thought out response I've read on here.

[ice]

i am in no way taking the assailants side to this discussion,
However i will give insite to what i feel is going on here.
Canadas RCMP Have too much power. When it comes to brutality canada is near the top of the list.
I can think of so many times excessive force was used.
And people lost there lives because of it.
Ive said it before and ill say it again.
Canada Is in A Police State.
We give our officers too much power. We give our governments too Much power.
And because of it.
Innocent people get beaten and people get killed.
its so sad to see things like this.

[connexion123]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

What if he doesn't put the knife down? What if he is 8 feet away on your stairs? What if he takes a step closer and is still holding the knife? What about the look on his face, his eyes? What about his body language? What about what he is saying? What if he is on drugs?

None of those things matter. A man does not unlawfully enter a dwelling for a cup of hot tea and a reasonable discussion.

It is, hi fella, drop it or you'll be shot. No questions.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by connexion123

None of those things matter. A man does not unlawfully enter a dwelling for a cup of hot tea and a reasonable discussion.

It is, hi fella, drop it or you'll be shot. No questions.

Matters to a cop

[raab]

Originally Posted by smith88

Which would be more dangerous for police to enter?

Please note that one officer in Montreal had already been shot but not wounded.

Which would be more dangerous for the public? You know the people they're paid to protect.

[kevinhits]

Just on the news...The officer has been charged with 2nd degree murder