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03-07-2017, 03:25 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple
If a resident cannot get a certain tag, a non-resident should not be able to pay for that tag.
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or at least let us buy the same tag
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03-07-2017, 03:28 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Blackfalds
Posts: 6,968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
or at least let us buy the same tag
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But then only the richer would be able to get it. Needs to go into the draw system as a regular tag.
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03-07-2017, 03:30 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple
But then only the richer would be able to get it. Needs to go into the draw system as a regular tag.
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we're selling them already, in my mind i don't see the difference
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03-07-2017, 03:37 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 4,961
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I'm sorry guys but to suggest the net result of the outfitting industry to the economy = zero is laughable at best. This is 100% about the money and I am totally fine with that, as I am with benefiting off our other industries.
Nope, I'm not an outfitter. Just a happy resident with more tags every year than I know what to do with. Happy to share that for the sake of jobs. Regulations? Certainly they are needed. And we're probably out of balance somewhere. But to suggest a resident drawn tag will bring in the same economic stimulus as an American wearing new Wrangler jeans who cant hardly ride the horse he's on through the Willmore is a hefty stretch.
I get it. We're mad and want the same opportunity afforded to our wealthy global friends. But we can't stretch the facts to fit that agenda. It's a totally valid concern that you want the same opportunity. But for eco-tourism dollars, it makes sense to allocate some of that for our benefit. Balance Balance Balance.
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03-07-2017, 03:46 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple
I'm not saying eliminate outfitting. We need to regulate it more so it doesn't get out of check.
If a resident cannot get a certain tag, a non-resident should not be able to pay for that tag.
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regulate it more then
95% resident opportunity vs 5% non resident opportunity???
And a resident can hunt every animal in the province in every WMU a non resident can, including a lot that non residents can't hunt. Which I'm fine with, but we have to share
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03-07-2017, 04:03 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Right, so just use antelope and draw Mule deer ?
What about sheep ? Lots of people complain about that too
How about moose and elk ? Chucks mad about the moose, I'm sure somebody else doesn't want elk hunters either.
So Cougar ? Nope, hound guys don't want those non residents to share with
Whitetails and bears then ? Only where no resident wants to hunt them, maybe up north where there's no roads ?
You can't pick and choose what "you" are ok with staying or going. There's somebody out there that wants it all gone.
100 million dollars of money goes into the Alberta economy every year because of the outfitting industry. That's 100 million that wouldn't be coming here if there was no non resident allocations.
And for that, you share maybe 5% (likely less if I crunched the numbers) of the total hunting opportunities in this province. If you honestly have a problem with that you are one dam greedy person in my opinion.
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My beef has nothing to do with Moose. But there seems to be a heck of a lot of tap dancing around the issue I raised.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
Last edited by Pathfinder76; 03-07-2017 at 04:10 PM.
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03-07-2017, 04:07 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: edmonton
Posts: 11,434
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One thing is getting confused in this argument. There is a big difference between a non-resident that is being hosted and one that uses an outfitter. A non res. that is hosted does not have the same oppurtunities as one that can, say, buy a Mule buck tag every year. A hosted non res. has to apply for a draw just like the rest of us for many species, and some they can not apply for at all.
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03-07-2017, 04:13 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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If the entire Alberta outfitting industry folded tomorrow this Province wouldn't feel even a tiny economic bump... the same goes for it's contribution. The unemployment rate wouldn't change either.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-07-2017, 04:17 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
My beef has nothing to do with Moose. But there seems to be a heck of a lot of tap dancing around the issue I raised.
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Sorry, I thought it was you commenting about the moose allocations in WMU 400 and 402 in a past thread.
And no tap dancing no, I'd like every WMU where the % of allocations are off to be fixed asap.
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03-07-2017, 04:18 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: edmonton
Posts: 11,434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
No my money does not all get spent here in Alberta. If I don't get drawn for a tag, the odds are that I will take a vacation outside of Alberta, and likely outside of Canada, so that money will end up contributing to an economy outside Alberta. And if I do as you and some other people have suggested, and book a hunt outside of Alberta, a very large portion of my hunting budget will be spent outside of Alberta. So when you consider my money is being removed from the Alberta economy, as a result of some non resident's money being spent in Alberta, the Alberta economy really doesn't gain anything.
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Wrong, wrong wrong. You don't get drawn, then someone else did, so no that draw/tag is not lost. If you want to go for a holiday outside of AB, then that is your right. When you are booking that holiday, how would you feel if the place you want to go to say's they don't want you, because you dont live there?
Some of the arguments on here are getting silly.
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03-07-2017, 04:35 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 4,961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
If the entire Alberta outfitting industry folded tomorrow this Province wouldn't feel even a tiny economic bump... the same goes for it's contribution. The unemployment rate wouldn't change either.
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Pretty sad justification of folding an entire industry. There's thousands of niche markets that if they singularly shut down wouldn't hit the radar either. I would venture hundreds if not thousands of jobs would be lost if there were no more outfitters. But hey if that gives us 20 tags instead of the 17 we can already have who cares right? Again, balance. I don't have blind allegiance to the outfitting industry at all. But I do champion their existence. As much as I value you having your job and contributing to our province in whatever industry you happen to be in.
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03-07-2017, 04:35 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
regulate it more then
95% resident opportunity vs 5% non resident opportunity???
And a resident can hunt every animal in the province in every WMU a non resident can, including a lot that non residents can't hunt. Which I'm fine with, but we have to share
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So if a new hunter started applying for trophy pronghorn in 2017, are you certain that he will ever draw a tag in his/her lifetime?
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-07-2017, 04:38 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwoods
Pretty sad justification of folding an entire industry. There's thousands of niche markets that if they singularly shut down wouldn't hit the radar either. I would venture hundreds if not thousands of jobs would be lost if there were no more outfitters. But hey if that gives us 20 tags instead of the 17 we can already have who cares right? Again, balance. I don't have blind allegiance to the outfitting industry at all. But I do champion their existence. As much as I value you having your job and contributing to our province in whatever industry you happen to be in.
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Most of us are not wanting to shut down the entire industry, but rather limit the allocations to the species/wmus, that a resident does not have to wait several years to draw a tag, or never be able to draw in his/her lifetime.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-07-2017, 04:44 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
what i don't like is that i can't go out and buy a tag but other people can. it would help outfitters sell their tags every year and make me happy
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You wouldn't even if you could. I have noticed most people in Alberta are cheap when it comes to hunting outside Alberta and really don't do much and if they do they do cheaper hunts for the most part.
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03-07-2017, 04:44 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
So if a new hunter started applying for trophy pronghorn in 2017, are you certain that he will ever draw a tag in his/her lifetime?
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I guess they could cut the tags further so they wouldn't, but I have no way of knowing that.
They could also increase the tags as the population continues to strengthen
Some WMUs have a hundred tags and one has two hundred, unless the resident population goes through the roof and the applicant numbers rise more why wouldn't they get draw for an antelope tag ?
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03-07-2017, 04:46 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Most of us are not wanting to shut down the entire industry, but rather limit the allocations to the species/wmus, that a resident does not have to wait several years to draw a tag, or never be able to draw in his/her lifetime.
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No. That's what you want elkhunter.
Lots of people want the whole industry eliminated.
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03-07-2017, 04:51 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 4,961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
No. That's what you want elkhunter.
Lots of people want the whole industry eliminated.
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Well reading the replies here and feeling the venom it sure feels that a lot of guys do for sure....
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03-07-2017, 04:52 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Lots of people want the whole industry eliminated.
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I see you are an Outfitter in BC. Is the attitude there about Outfitting as negative as it seems to be here?
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03-07-2017, 04:52 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
They should, but they don't.
Where APOS is concerned, nothing counts but the money, and perhaps that is why so many APOS members, including some past members of the executive have a record of convictions for violations. For those people, money even comes before the regulations. And even after they have been convicted several times for both violations of the Wildlife Act, and the Criminal Act, they are allowed to remain a member of APOS, and they get to keep their allocations and keep outfitting.
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And again it's APOS fault the rules are the rules. It's business and your the little man that does not contribute to the pile as much as a Non resident.
It's the Govt rules that allows outfitting!!!
And there are rules as well to what license you can take away from someone that is convicted of breaking the law. You bring up Mcmohan for instance and I highly doubt his name is on anything legal pertaining to outfitting. There are ways around it all and it is not the fault of APOS for most of it.
You guys are fighting big business here. You can't win much. I don't like the way some of it is either but some of the whining going on is retarded.
Some of you guys may spend a few bucks in the province but it doesn't come close to what is spent from Non Residents.
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03-07-2017, 04:55 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
I guess they could cut the tags further so they wouldn't, but I have no way of knowing that.
They could also increase the tags as the population continues to strengthen
Some WMUs have a hundred tags and one has two hundred, unless the resident population goes through the roof and the applicant numbers rise more why wouldn't they get draw for an antelope tag ?
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Take a look at the applicant numbers with P-1 through around P-5, and you will see that while some people are drawing tags in 11 or 12 years, the bad couple of years five to six years ago, caused a huge backup, that will take around 20 years to get through the system, providing the tag numbers remain where they are, and the number of applicants does not increase. However one more bad year like we had about six years ago could double that 20 years to 40 years. Even if the population only has one bad year every fifteen years or so, a person could apply for their entire life, and never be drawn for a tag.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-07-2017, 04:57 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
No. That's what you want elkhunter.
Lots of people want the whole industry eliminated.
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Take birds for instance. All the complaining of residents that they can not find a shoot on a friday night for Sat morning so they cut it to 4 outfitters per WMU.
Now they are still complaining. Where will the complaining end?.....when there are no outfitters and that will never happen.
Do you guys also realise that a lot of the tags guys have are never sold?
So even if an outfitter has 10% of the tags he most likely isn't even using all them and getting his aloted %10 for that zone.
Also things are done on a 5 year or 10 year deal with the Govt I think. Not sure entirely but the numbers are what they are for a certain amount of time. AS in Chucks case if he is right and there is an over %10 being used I hope they will fix that as that is not what it should be.
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03-07-2017, 04:58 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13mileranch
I see you are an Outfitter in BC. Is the attitude there about Outfitting as negative as it seems to be here?
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It's worse in BC.
Outfitters get a way higher alottment in BC.
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03-07-2017, 04:59 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Take a look at the applicant numbers with P-1 through around P-5, and you will see that while some people are drawing tags in 11 or 12 years, the bad couple of years five to six years ago, caused a huge backup, that will take around 20 years to get through the system, providing the tag numbers remain where they are, and the number of applicants does not increase. However one more bad year like we had about six years ago could double that 20 years to 40 years. Even if the population only has one bad year every fifteen years or so, a person could apply for their entire life, and never be drawn for a tag.
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If so be grateful you can save a few bucks and someone in the USA will let you come shoot one because they are not too greedy....
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03-07-2017, 05:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube
If so be grateful you can save a few bucks and someone in the USA will let you come shoot one because they are not too greedy....
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I am P-14 , so I should draw one more tag, so my concern is not for me. Unlike some people here, I care about future generations of Alberta residents, many of whom will not be able to afford to travel to the USA to shoot a pronghorn, so they will never get to experience a pronghorn hunt. If those non resident tags were eliminated several hundred more Alberta residents could enjoy pronghorn hunts in their home province over the next ten years.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-07-2017, 05:13 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 4,961
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So if you advocate less non res alien tags, you are basically saying you're ok with less tags outside our borders. I, for one wouldn't want to trade that.
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03-07-2017, 05:16 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13mileranch
I see you are an Outfitter in BC. Is the attitude there about Outfitting as negative as it seems to be here?
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In some cases yes, but in the north it's a way of life for lots of us so it's generally more excepted there.
I'm sure further south, it is not
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03-07-2017, 05:24 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
If the entire Alberta outfitting industry folded tomorrow this Province wouldn't feel even a tiny economic bump... the same goes for it's contribution. The unemployment rate wouldn't change either.
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^^ agree.
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03-07-2017, 05:26 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube
It's worse in BC.
Outfitters get a way higher alottment in BC.
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Depends where you are and what species. You have to remember that many in BC want tourism as the only industry in the province. Pretty hard to do that if you cut tourism opportunities there
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03-07-2017, 05:30 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
If the entire Alberta outfitting industry folded tomorrow this Province wouldn't feel even a tiny economic bump... the same goes for it's contribution. The unemployment rate wouldn't change either.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
^^ agree.
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Luckily the people that make the decisions have more brains then you two !!!
100 million dollars gone for your own greed, sounds good boys
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03-07-2017, 05:33 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwoods
So if you advocate less non res alien tags, you are basically saying you're ok with less tags outside our borders. I, for one wouldn't want to trade that.
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I would be okay with that. You need to realize, that many people can't afford the costs of hunting outside of Alberta. They either hunt in Alberta, or they don't hunt at all.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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