Man shocked by arrest after daughter draws picture of gun at school

[Rod1960]

Originally Posted by Rod1960

Because the antis and politicians have their kindred spirit whipped into such a frenzy with their fear mongering and lies that even a drawing by a 4 year old gets a man arrested.

@Sundancefisher; Am I wrong?

[CaberTosser]

Bumped ahead of the two other redundant threads started by people who can't check if their 3 day old "news scoop" may already be being discussed.

This event is literally like the Salem witch trials, in the attitudes of the teachers, school admin, and Child & Family Services.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

This event is literally like the Salem witch trials, in the attitudes of the teachers, school admin, and Child & Family Services.

I'm interested to know why you don't list the Kitchener Police in your list of witch hunters.

[Redfrog]

Thanks for all that research, Sun, but I don't see 'conspiracy anywhere.

In the references to Nazis and third world countries, I'm sure those are valid examples of rights being denied.

Obama and U.S. health policies have nothing to do with this case in Kitchener, but keep trying to get the lipstick on the pig.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

This event is literally like the Salem witch trials, in the attitudes of the teachers, school admin, and Child & Family Services.

That or the communist trials of the 50s. Funny how the same thing keeps happening.

In response to people in the thread who have said people make mistakes, I certainly acknowledge that and demanding a pound of flesh often doesn't serve any justice.

However this wasn't a simple accident. Someone in that chain of events either sensationalized or assumed that this man was a profound threat to society. That sort of thing can't happen. Because the results can very literally ruin the lives of an entire family.

If it weren't for this story making the news then all the community at large would know was that this father was arrested at his daughter's school. That's all. They wouldn't know the details; they sure as hell wouldn't ask him; they'd just stay as far from him as they could. Him, his wife, and even the little daughter that everyone is trying to "save" would have this stigma attached to them that would shut them out of careers and social circles and possibly completely change the course of their lives. That's why it's illegal to slander someone.

Illegal that is unless you make the laws....

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

I'm interested to know why you don't list the Kitchener Police in your list of witch hunters.

Merely an overight; someone there should have had a shred of logic as well. What disturbs me is that no one person in this entire chain felt it within their duty to question the procedures undertaken. Most organizations have flow charts and other BS designed to (among other things) take away personal liability, initiative or creativity; was everyone here simply following a flow chart? Did nobody really question what they were doing, and if so; why didn't they take a stand and speak up? Did they not want their annual review to get a spot on it for not following procedure? Why is "official procedure" so flawed?

As for what information the police were given by the teachers and child welfare people who knows? Maybe it was simply said that a child said their parent had a gun, and it wasn't noted how young the child was. Still, this shouldn't initiate anything more than a records check for a PAL and a phone call. Though that would likely have gotten him raided anyways, if he didn't have a PAL. The irony in my scenario is if he did have a PAL and real guns, he might not have been raided

[rwm1273]

So near universal agreement that people acted wrong, and there needs to be punishment. Who gets punished, and how? What are people's thoughts on this?

My thoughts are the Principal needs to to be punished, and the Child and Family Service member who called the police need to be punished. These two people had the position and the power to stop the stupidity right away. I think demotion for both would be in order.

The teacher and the police I think need to be reprimanded, perhaps with a letter on their file. Both should have asked more questions before taking action.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

What disturbs me is that no one person in this entire chain felt it within their duty to question the procedures undertaken. Most organizations have flow charts and other BS designed to (among other things) take away personal liability, initiative or creativity; was everyone here simply following a flow chart? Did nobody really question what they were doing, and if so; why didn't they take a stand and speak up? Did they not want their annual review to get a spot on it for not following procedure? Why is "official procedure" so flawed?

Did we not learn anything from WWII? Didn't all the Nazis charged with genocide claim they were merely following orders? So in nearly 70 years we have regressed to the idea that you don't need to think and use common sense if you follow policy?

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

So near universal agreement that people acted wrong, and there needs to be punishment. Who gets punished, and how? What are people's thoughts on this?

My thoughts are the Principal needs to to be punished, and the Child and Family Service member who called the police need to be punished. These two people had the position and the power to stop the stupidity right away. I think demotion for both would be in order.

The teacher and the police I think need to be reprimanded, perhaps with a letter on their file. Both should have asked more questions before taking action.

Really depends who did what and why.

If the teacher and principle only followed procedure and reported a possible cause for investigation to Child Welfare then really their hands are clean....

I'm leaning towards blaming the Child Services or Police because really the responsibility was theirs to verify a threat and act accordingly.

I know that me telling the cops my neighbour has an AK-47 won't get my neighbour arrested....I sorta doubt the teachers have that ability either.

[rwm1273]

I tend to disagree that a complaint about a gun won't result in the police showing up.

My vehicle had been stolen the first weekend I moved to my house. I found it a few blocks away. The police searched it, and one said he thinks he knew who had stolen it, and lived in the condo complex where it was found.

So I am there fixing the ignition when the idiots who were suspected of stealing it were out staring at me. I returned to my house to get some tools, and shortly after getting it repaired and driving home, I was surrounded by a number of police cars. The jerks called the police and said I had a gun. Cops search the vehicle and then my house, and garage, ask me 50 questions, and finally leave as they did not find any guns at my house. What was the issue was I had a black cordless drill that these people claimed was a gun.

I also don't agree with exonerating the principal and child and family services worker for "just following policy". It didn't work for nazis before, so why should it work now? Common sense needs to be used when you have the power to destroy a family.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

I also don't agree with exonerating the principal and child and family services worker for "just following policy". It didn't work for nazis before, so why should it work now? Common sense needs to be used when you have the power to destroy a family.

I may stand corrected on the count of what the police will and won't do if you tell them someone has a gun.

However (and without knowing anything personal about the school workers) you don't need to be a Nazi to see a child drawing a picture of Daddy with a gun and raise an eyebrow.

Keep in mind they didn't call in the storm troopers directly. They reported it to Child Welfare. Any sensible person would just expect Child Welfare to talk to the family and then say "sorry to bother you sir, I hope you and your family have a nice day". That didn't happen.

And again, I don't know the teacher or the principle. Maybe they flipped out, went into full soccer mom mode and told Child Welfare that this guy was a dangerous criminal. Fact is we don't know either way what they said.

[Rod1960]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

http://www.570news.com/radio/570news...-news-webcasts

Check out the webcast tomorrow Feb 27 at 9am eastern (7am here) the Crayola cop Chief Matt Torigian is scheduled to be on. I'm sure he will set the record straight, explain how strip searching is justified because a 4yo drew a picture.

Should be interesting, bring a shovel.

Interview of Torigian and Alison Scott: http://www.570news.com/listen/listen...-gun-at-school

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

As for what information the police were given by the teachers and child welfare people who knows?

I don't think we should be tolerating the police taking their direction from either of those groups. Here's an excerpt from another story (I'm guessing all these links are posted so won't repeat them):

Scott, of Family and Children’s Services, said the agency was obligated to investigate after getting a report from the school.

“Our community would have an expectation if comments are made about a gun in a house, we’d be obligated to investigate that to ensure everything is safe.”

Note that he said: if comments are made about a gun in a house, we’d be obligated to investigate. Bizarre.

An initial police statement is also revealing:

Waterloo Regional Police Insp. Kevin Thaler said there was a complaint from Forest Hills public school that “a firearm was in a residence and children had access to it. We had every concern, based on this information, that children were in danger.”

Offering that lame excuse for what they did is an insult to the reader's intelligence. IF that was their report, they should have asked some questions.

It looks to me like they all had "an expectation" based on nothing more than the suspicion that there was "a gun in the house".

That's pretty scary on two fronts:

1. All of the school, social services and the police ran around with their hair on fire because somebody said the "G" word;

2. The police, especially, should be expected to know that it is legal in Kanada to own a gun and it is legal in Kanada to have a gun in your home. The initial report from the Social Services goof should have therefore resulted in a response like "So?" from the police.

If the police say that they genuinely relied on the 4 yr. old's statement about her dad using a gun to "get the bad guys and monsters”, I'd like to know if the house was searched for monsters as well as guns.

We don't do anybody - anybody - any favours by sweeping this sort of stuff under the rug or being apologists for what happened.

[CaberTosser]

Over on the CGN thread, someone posted contact phone #'s and emails for some of the powers that be in this incident.


Originally Posted by L337
Forest Hill P.S.
255 Westmount Rd. E.
Kitchener, Ontario
N2M 4Z2

Phone:
519-578-5480

Principal:
Steve Zack

School website:
fhl.wrdsb.on.ca
---------------------------------------------------------
Family and Children's Services of the Waterloo region
200 Ardelt Ave,
Kitchener, On
N2C2L9

168 Hespeler Rd
Cambridge, On
N1R 6V7

Executive Director: Alison Scott.

Phone: 519 576 0540
fax 576 4709
email: inquiries@facswaterloo.org
------------------------------------------------------------

I thought there were more..... can't seem to find them all.

That CGN thread has evolved and now has Facebook, YouTube and MySpace excerpts from this fathers webpages; tying his cultivated gangsta image to his previous convictions does add a bit of potential motivation as to why these people went after him.

[Old Hunter]

Anybody who doesn't have a real firearm or a PAL ever shoot bad guys and monsters on a flat screen in front of youngsters? Might want to cinch up your belt to keep your trousers covering your butt. For the lawyer(s) on the forum, was this a lawful arrest without warrant according to requirements of 495 C.C. ????

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Over on the CGN thread, someone posted contact phone #'s and emails for most of the powers that be in this incident.


Originally Posted by L337
Forest Hill P.S.
255 Westmount Rd. E.
Kitchener, Ontario
N2M 4Z2

Phone:
519-578-5480

Principal:
Steve Zack

School website:
fhl.wrdsb.on.ca
---------------------------------------------------------
Family and Children's Services of the Waterloo region
200 Ardelt Ave,
Kitchener, On
N2C2L9

168 Hespeler Rd
Cambridge, On
N1R 6V7

Executive Director: Alison Scott.

Phone: 519 576 0540
fax 576 4709
email: inquiries@facswaterloo.org
------------------------------------------------------------

And so it begins....

Not that I think someone shouldn't get an earfull over this. Would be nice though if they'd do an official investigation into who dropped the ball so we know who to beat up

[Au revoir, Gopher]

From another story on this topic.

“We’re still investigating this one,” [Alison] Scott [the executive director of Family and Children’s Services] said.

I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means, but it sounds horrible like Family and Children's Services are still investigating why this poor child would be so disturbed as to be drawing pictures of guns.

And to get you truly bent and twisted there is this response to the story.

ARG

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher

From another story on this topic.


I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means, but it sounds horrible like Family and Children's Services are still investigating why this poor child would be so disturbed as to be drawing pictures of guns.

And to get you truly bent and twisted there is this response to the story.

ARG

Investigators told Insp. Kevin Thaler they were convinced there was a threat based on the “jaw-dropping” accuracy of the description of a semi-automatic gun.

Did they ask if it was plastic?

[Rod1960]

FWIW, Chief Torigian was one the people Candice Hoeppner called out for misrepresenting the hits on the LGR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGI36...layer_embedded

[Yéil]

I think one of my bones of contention with the Ontario Children's Aid is that they are in a very grey area of public versus private corporation accountibility.

Bound by the Corporations Act, the Children’s Aid Societies are considered private corporations and receive most of their funding from the public coffers and their employees act as agents of the state when removing children from their homes and interfering with parent/child relationships. However, most agencies acting for the state are also subject to review by a higher authority such as the Office of the Ombudsman for Ontario. CAS has never been subject to review by this office as it holds an exclusive power to oversee itself.

If a citizen of Ontario wishes to file a complaint about the actions of a Children’s Aid Society they are forced to complain to management of that very same Children’s Aid Society whom they are lodging a complaint against. It is hard to imagine the existence of any agency that is self regulating dealing with complaints in a fair and impartial manner and it is abundantly clear the same can be said for the Children’s Aid Societies.

In response to the overwhelming volume of complaints about the CAS in Ontaio the Givt set up the Child and Family Services Act Review Board (CFSRB). Guess who runs that? More CAS staff.

Andre Martin the then Ombudsman had to say this...

“Last but not least, I would be remiss in my reporting duties if I did not once again use this opportunity to comment on the dismal state of oversight of the MUSH sector. Municipalities, universities, school boards, hospitals, long-term care facilities and children’s aid societies in the province have become almost a law onto themselves. They have carved themselves a nice, comfortable niche – a zone of immunity against oversight. It continues to baffle me that the provincial government can talk out of both sides of its mouth on this. How can it assume control over badly managed areas of the MUSH sector while at the same time refusing to subject it to the checks and balances that could have potentially prevented scandals from developing in the first place?”

Way back in my articling days, I clerked for a Phase 1&II YO and Family Court Justice. two thirds of my work involved child apprehension cases and the chain of events in this case just don't add up/ring true. However, I did have some cases that involved the KW CAS and they are for the most part, a grab the kids and then ask questions later type of agency. I see nothing as apparently changed in 30 years.

[rwm1273]

So from the interviews, these people felt the child had access to a gun. I don't remember reading or hearing anything where the kids said they were the person shooting bad guys and monsters. So how can they draw a conclusion that the child had free access to the gun? As others have said, owning a gun is not illegal, and the school and child and family services would have no access to information as to if the parents in the home were permitted to have a gun, or even owned a gun. So they ran with worst case scenario like idiots.

The head of child and family services gave a number of scenarios of how and why they would get involved, yet from the sound of it, they did not do any due diligence in this case. She further refused to make any statement into the specifics of this case. At least the police chief stated that some errors were made.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Thanks for all that research, Sun, but I don't see 'conspiracy anywhere.

In the references to Nazis and third world countries, I'm sure those are valid examples of rights being denied.

Obama and U.S. health policies have nothing to do with this case in Kitchener, but keep trying to get the lipstick on the pig.

You keep trying to make this bigger than the local incident it is...and we can agree to disagree.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

So near universal agreement that people acted wrong, and there needs to be punishment. Who gets punished, and how? What are people's thoughts on this?

My thoughts are the Principal needs to to be punished, and the Child and Family Service member who called the police need to be punished. These two people had the position and the power to stop the stupidity right away. I think demotion for both would be in order.

The teacher and the police I think need to be reprimanded, perhaps with a letter on their file. Both should have asked more questions before taking action.

You need all the fact before you can put the punishment to the crime. That is alway lacking in these media blogging scrums.

[Rocky7]

According to reports, the police arrest Dad, etc., and then show up at the house, tell the wife her husband has been arrested "on firearms charges", take her and her child to the Station and the search the house......and find a Nerf Gun.

No word on whether they found any monsters. Perhaps the closets weren't searched; that's where my 4 yr. old would have told you they lived.

If this wasn't real, it would make a good Monty Python episode.

And then, there's this:

When I was finally able to see my family, after this ordeal was over, my little girl ran up and gave me a hug me and asked: 'Daddy, are you mad at me?'

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You need all the fact before you can put the punishment to the crime. That is alway lacking in these media blogging scrums.

Yes you are correct, but after listening to the interviews of the police and CAS, I can say that there is definitely room for some punishment, and I would lean heavily towards the CAS for failing to do an interview with the father before calling the police. The CAS worker could have been waiting in the office and spoke with the father, and if she was not happy with his reply, then refused to permit him to take his child, and then called the police. What they did instead was call the police, and made up a story that the father had a gun, they did not have any actual evidence and was based on the say so of a 4yr old.

Yes the CAS is out of control, they failed this family, and they are not owning up to their mistakes. So this will happen again and again.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

When I was finally able to see my family, after this ordeal was over, my little girl ran up and gave me a hug me and asked: 'Daddy, are you mad at me?'

Now this obviously traumatized the child. So how were the actions of the school, CAS, and the police "in the best interest of the child"?

[Old Hunter]

Some facts I would like to see

The child's drawing
The implications to professionals (school teacher/principal/child protection worker) under Ontario law if they were not to report to police even a "suspicion" of child abuse/neglect/endangerment
An audio recording or verbatim transcript of the "“jaw-dropping” accuracy of the description of a semi-automatic gun." given by young children.
An audio recording of the call to Children's Aid
An audio recording of the call to police


Set aside all the rhetoric, emotion, conspiracies, police state and consider the implications to our society in general terms. That is why I wondered out loud if anyone without a firearm, PAL or even a replica or toy has happened to shoot bad guys and monsters with a video game controller that may be seen as a gun by small children present. I seem to recall the kids shooting imaginary ducks with pistol looking controllers for some early nintendo or such like game.

I don't think anyone will argue that we should not take threats to our children's safety very seriously. It is the assessment of the actual existence of such a threat that, on the face of what we can all read, seems to have been seriously lacking and the resulting actions taken beyond anything necessary. I see in following some of the links that Sansone has now "lawyered up".

This will be one of those interesting matters to follow to its conclusion. It is not an issue of interest only to firearms owners.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by Old Hunter

An audio recording or verbatim transcript of the "“jaw-dropping” accuracy of the description of a semi-automatic gun." given by young children.

Personally I find it hard to believe that the kid gave a "jaw-dropping" description of the gun that didn't hint at the fact that it was a toy.

Officer: Is it black like a spot on a moo cow?

4 Year Old: Whas a cow?

Officer: Would it fit in my hand like this?

4 Year Old: Yeahhhhh.

Officer: Ok, we're going to go gun down your Daddy now.

4 Year Old: Ahh k.

[dmckay]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I'm amazed that the authorities never had to arrest my Dad and try to find where he kept the sharks and intergalactic battle cruisers.

I was thinking the same thing. I used to draw pictures of guns, monsters, cars, grenades.....my Dad should be in Guantonimo I guess.

I can somewhat understand that the principal has to report this for the child's safety, but really? Call the father or go to the residence, explain the concern and I'm sure he would explain his situation. To go to the school and haul the guy out in handcuffs in front of his kids and others..........WTF!!

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Old Hunter

I see in following some of the links that Sansone has now "lawyered up".

I hope it is Jack Ruby or someone like him.

It is not an issue of interest only to firearms owners.

No, it isn't. We are only the canary in the coal mine.