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12-04-2018, 01:21 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
And if the weight of the rifle can absorb most of the recoil, the equivalent energy in the bullet, can't physically knock over a deer , let alone a moose or elk.
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As I see it, knockover and collapse are two different things. I gave seen animals collapse but not too many "knock-overs".
More energy transferred= more trauma
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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12-04-2018, 01:23 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
As I see it, knockover and collapse are two different things. I gave seen animals collapse but not too many "knock-overs".
More energy transferred= more trauma
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Exactly!
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-04-2018, 01:26 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 44
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I’m new on here and as far as the bullet/cartridge debate goes I don’t have anything to offer other than what I’ve read.
On that note I found this article particularly informative when it comes to the mechanics of actually killing an animal.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...e+Killing.html
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12-04-2018, 01:28 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
If you think that energy is what kills a big game animal, then I question your understanding of how a bullet kills.
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So you are saying now that energy kills?
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12-04-2018, 01:31 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
In order to push a 200lb boar one foot on level ground, it would take 200ftlbs of force. The recoil produced, would be the same 200ftlbs. A 600 Nitro Express produces about 150ftlbs, a typical big game rifle produces less than 1/3 of that.
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Where did you get these numbers? You can't push a boar around with 200 lbs of force! This is preposterous.
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12-04-2018, 01:32 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
So you are saying now that energy kills?
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How do you think an electric chair works man?
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12-04-2018, 01:38 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar
How do you think an electric chair works man?
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It transfers energy... Elkhunter11 was the one who told me energy doesn't kill and I had no clue about how a bullet kills.
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12-04-2018, 01:38 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: SJ, NB
Posts: 410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
This is the magic of of the 6.5’s...
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Nothing magical about apples to oranges comparisons.
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"The majority is never right."
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12-04-2018, 01:39 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: south calgary
Posts: 2,280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
In order to push a 200lb boar one foot on level ground, it would take 200ftlbs of force. The recoil produced, would be the same 200ftlbs. A 600 Nitro Express produces about 150ftlbs, a typical big game rifle produces less than 1/3 of that.
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What are the variable used for the math, weight of rifle, grain of bullet etc
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12-04-2018, 01:43 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar
Where did you get these numbers? You can't push a boar around with 200 lbs of force! This is preposterous.
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He is missing a vital component called friction.
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12-04-2018, 01:46 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm
What are the variable used for the math, weight of rifle, grain of bullet etc
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Quoting a webpage.
This is the cartridge for those who think the .600 Nitro Express is kind of...wussy. It sends a 1,000-grain bullet at 2,000 feet per second, with 8,900 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 19-pound Holland & Holland double rifle, it produces 109 foot-pounds of recoil. A friend of mine who has shot one assures me that it’s unmanageable. Pull the trigger and the muzzle points at the sky while the butt ends down at your belt. Also, the rifle costs over $200,000.
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12-04-2018, 01:47 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm
I believe that wild boar I shot in the face with my 45-70 while it was lying down slide back over a foot when the bullet stuck in its hide in the flank area after passing through most of its body
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So if I take a 45-70 and shoot a dead boar in the face I can expect that boar to move over a foot back? Wow, that almost sounds unbelievable
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12-04-2018, 01:48 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Are you serious? At what distance will a 26 Nosler out penetrate a 6.5 Creedmoor??? I think the obvious answer is at any distance.
In my opinion, where the Creedmoor becomes a bad choice is past the 400-600yd range depending on the animal you’re after and bullet selection of course.
I think a better question is at what distance will it mean the difference between a lethal or non lethal shot? I think the answer lies somewhere around most people’s maximum shooting capabilities, or in other words, I think the Creedmoor is capable of making a lethal shot on big game as far as 90% of hunters are capable of accurately shooting.
Keep in mind few hunters can shoot past 300yds accurately in field conditions (and that’s being generous), despite what they may believe. Trust me, I see it every single year and judging from these discussions there are a lot of guys who think the magnum will compensate for their marksmanship. The fact is, the magnum will only help if their marksmanship is as good as they think it is, which in most cases it is not.
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Let's put everyone shooting abilities aside.
At 200 yards shooting a high weight retention bullet , let's say a ttsx, how much further will the 26 nos penetrate then the 6.5 cm? I don't know but I'm asking.
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12-04-2018, 01:56 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
Let's put everyone shooting abilities aside.
At 200 yards shooting a high weight retention bullet , let's say a ttsx, how much further will the 26 nos penetrate then the 6.5 cm? I don't know but I'm asking.
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Not possible to answer. Is it through bone or through vitals? If vitals guessing 100% through the animal so better answer may be which one penetrates further into the dirt on the other side.
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12-04-2018, 02:09 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,432
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As much as I like the 6.5 bullet.
There is a reason the military uses a 50 caliber to penetrate and stop hard targets, like trucks, light armored vehicles etc. Rather then a 6.5 Grendel.
The 6.5mm is probably one of the best all around game cartridges there is for most soft skinned game in Canada.....BUT as a bear stopper there are better choices.
My 9.3x62 would be one, easy on the shoulder hard on the critter.
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Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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12-04-2018, 02:11 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
Not possible to answer. Is it through bone or through vitals? If vitals guessing 100% through the animal so better answer may be which one penetrates further into the dirt on the other side.
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10 ' of muscle, 100 wet phone books. You name it. Will the cm go thru 6" and stop? Will the nosler only get 8"
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12-04-2018, 02:12 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
Let's put everyone shooting abilities aside.
At 200 yards shooting a high weight retention bullet , let's say a ttsx, how much further will the 26 nos penetrate then the 6.5 cm? I don't know but I'm asking.
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Impossible to answer for a few reasons. Bullet weight, muzzle velocity, and the substrate you’re shooting into.
I would think that at 200yds, shooting either a 100gr or a 120gr ttsx out of either cartridge would result in a pass thru on a deer and quite possibly a moose, given it's a broadside shot in the ribs. If the shot is from tip to tail on a moose then the 26 Nosler will penetrate further, but the Creedmoor would penetrate deep enough to cause a significant amount of trauma to the vital organs. For that reason I figure the Creedmoor is a suitable big game cartridge, especially for using as a lightweight still hunting rifle.
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12-04-2018, 02:23 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
10 ' of muscle, 100 wet phone books. You name it. Will the cm go thru 6" and stop? Will the nosler only get 8"
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17-25% more penetration if everything is identical. So 6" and stop would be just over 7".
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12-04-2018, 02:39 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
17-25% more penetration if everything is identical. So 6" and stop would be just over 7".
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Wow, to be honest I thought it would be more. Does that factor in the rate of expansion?
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12-04-2018, 02:43 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Exactly, if the animal is laying on slippery ground, or is on a slope, it may be moved, but the movie scenes where the person is lifted off his feet and thrown backwards by the shotgun blast are nonsense. The same is true when people claim that their bullet knocked over a 1000lb moose that was standing on level dirt.
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A few years back I shot a WT buck straight on at 60 yards with a 168gr etip at 2575MV. Shot was on level ground and I was using a round bale as a rest so very slight downward angle. My shot hit the buck dead center just at the base of his neck. The impact threw the buck backwards almost a complete back wards somersault. The bullet exited just in front of the left hip bone. My kids were watching when I took the shot and marveled that I almost made that deer fly( they were daily young at the time) I do agree with you in principle and also realise Hollywood goes way over board. my personal experience has shown bullet Impact can and sometimes does look like it goes against the math. Most likely that deer attempted to jump the moment the shot went off and that's why it flipped/ looked like I knocked it arse over kettle
Last edited by obsessed1; 12-04-2018 at 02:49 PM.
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12-04-2018, 02:45 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obsessed1
A few years back I shot a WT buck straight on at 60 yards with a 168gr etip at 2575MV. Shot was on level ground and I was using a round bale as a rest so very slight downward angle. My shot hit the buck dead center just at the base of his neck. The impact threw the buck backwards almost a complete back wards somersault. The bullet exited just in front of the left hip bone. My kids were watching when I took the shot and marveled that I almost made that deer fly( they were daily young at the time) so while I do agree with you in principle and also realise Hollywood goes way over board my personal experience has shown bullet Impact can and sometimes does go against what the math says it should
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Reflex reaction.
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12-04-2018, 02:47 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Impossible to answer for a few reasons. Bullet weight, muzzle velocity, and the substrate you’re shooting into.
I would think that at 200yds, shooting either a 100gr or a 120gr ttsx out of either cartridge would result in a pass thru on a deer and quite possibly a moose, given it's a broadside shot in the ribs. If the shot is from tip to tail on a moose then the 26 Nosler will penetrate further, but the Creedmoor would penetrate deep enough to cause a significant amount of trauma to the vital organs. For that reason I figure the Creedmoor is a suitable big game cartridge, especially for using as a lightweight still hunting rifle.
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With less impact velocity, the CM should produce less expansion, so a smaller frontal area, could result in equal penetration.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-04-2018, 02:49 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,871
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Obsessed1 I would offer that the buck’s reaction was more disruption of the central nervous system than kinetic force.
I have seen numerous instances of that myself , one being a neck shot rabbit with a .22 long rifle from 15 or so yards .
The shot was on the left side and the rabbit actually jumped straight up and did a back flip
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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12-04-2018, 02:50 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Reflex reaction.
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Yup edited my post....was attempting to type that but hit the post button too soon....all good
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12-04-2018, 02:51 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
17-25% more penetration if everything is identical. So 6" and stop would be just over 7".
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Thank you. Are you using max book velocity?
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12-04-2018, 02:51 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 160
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I don’t think the 26 will penetrate a lot more. But I do think that the 26 will cause the bullet to expand more with the higher velocity. Thus transferring more energy to the target. And since it has energy to spare. Your going to see a bigger wound channel, more penetration, less wind drift, less drop, and a lot more bang flops. Both of them your going to have to make a well placed shot. If you do that the 26 nosler should win. If you can’t hit the broadside of a barn. Well there’s always curling
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12-04-2018, 02:53 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Wow, to be honest I thought it would be more. Does that factor in the rate of expansion?
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No it is assuming that all factors are the same so the only difference is the amount of velocity. Assuming identical expansion and identical bullets used. The number could be off a bit to a ways as it is assuming the same amount of expansion but the higher velocity nosler should have a lower rate of expansion and more penetration from this. Not really possible to look at rate of expansion without true rates.
Breaks down to [Nosler Velocity^2- CM Velocity^2] / Nosler Velocity^2
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12-04-2018, 02:58 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
No it is assuming that all factors are the same so the only difference is the amount of velocity. Assuming identical expansion and identical bullets used. The number could be off a bit to a ways as it is assuming the same amount of expansion but the higher velocity nosler should have a lower rate of expansion and more penetration from this. Not really possible to look at rate of expansion without true rates.
Breaks down to [Nosler Velocity^2- CM Velocity^2] / Nosler Velocity^2
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Using the same bullet, more impact velocity generally results in more expansion, but the expansion can be so great, that the petals fold flat against the shank, resulting in a smaller frontal area. As well, petals could break off resulting in less frontal area, and less mass. There is no way to know for sure which will happen.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-04-2018, 03:00 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Reflex reaction.
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Yes.. and very likely some heart damage as well. Seen a few do that with a frontal shot.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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12-04-2018, 03:00 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
No it is assuming that all factors are the same so the only difference is the amount of velocity. Assuming identical expansion and identical bullets used. The number could be off a bit to a ways as it is assuming the same amount of expansion but the higher velocity nosler should have a lower rate of expansion and more penetration from this. Not really possible to look at rate of expansion without true rates.
Breaks down to [Nosler Velocity^2- CM Velocity^2] / Nosler Velocity^2
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Do you mean the Nosler will have a higher rate of expansion, causing it to slow faster, resulting in a slightly lower rate of penetration percentage wise? Like the Nosler is say 25% faster, and because of this will cause the bullet to expand more rapidly and physically, creating a larger frontal area and in turn slowing its rate of penetration faster than the slower moving bullet? I have no clue, I’m just throwing my line of thinking out there.
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