Should Crossbows be Allowed in Archery Only Season? 2ND POLL!

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by ehntr

It's not the ABA "keeping X-Bows out of our archery seasons". Alberta hunters voted. My opinion........and I'm not a member, is that the ABA is doing the right thing. It's not an "us against them" thing, because there is no them.......it's all us. Acceptance...take the pill.

ABA is doing the right thing. They lobby like hell to keep X-Bows out of general Archery seasons. They lobby and stack meetings like hell to keep Primitive weapons out of Parkland County. It just depends on what you see as the "right thing" and who you identify as the "us" in "it's all us".

So far, I see nothing concrete to accept...just a preliminary survey that the X-Bow supporters should pay attention to. No pills req'd.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

You already have that opportunity, draw a tag in WMU XXX, bow hunt that zone during the archery season and don't connect and go back out in the general season and fill your boots.....

The game changes with the inclusion of draws to what was once general archery. According to Walking Buffalo who seems very informed on this, for the next 2 years (minimum) archery and rifle are on a combined draw. After that the plan is to have separate archery and a rifle draws. If you can put in for both draws, other than costing twice as much, it's not a huge issue. What I was referring to was if you could only apply for one of the two draws I would much rather have a combined draw rather than choosing one draw over the other.

[MathewsArcher]

Gotcha...WB is on the money the idea of separate draws will be revisited after the existing ISM contract expires in two years. Hopefully, by then mule deer populations will have recovered and the general archery mule deer tag will be revisited, if the 15% allowable harvest for archery can be maintained.

[philintheblank]

Originally Posted by ForwardBias

What do the crossbow guys like about them over vertical bows?

When I lived in Ontario I used both! I normally used my compound in the early part of the season. Then as the temperature dropped and I had to wear thicker heavier clothing I switched it up to the crossbow. The best thing about the crossbow was you didn't need to worry about cramping up from the cold or your bowstring catching on your jacket. The archery season in my area was oct. 1st - Dec 31st. With a 5 day shotgun hunt. Those 5 days were always a blood bath for the deer. Between the half Dzn guys I knew that bow hunted, 2 of us used crossbows. And there wasnt and noticeable advantage. We all filled out tags, and more often than not in the shotgun season.

The huge disadvantage to a crossbow is they are NOISEY! I, wouldn't shoot more than 35-40 yards for fear of my target jumping the arrow... They jumped compound shots sometimes as it was. They are heavy, tree stand was not normally too far though. And god forbid I missed, there was no hope of a follow up... They are sketchy to load in a tree stand.

You still need to be a decent shot with and crossbow and you still need to understand how your yardage effects your arrow drop. I practiced just as much with my crossbow as I did with my compound.

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Gotcha...WB is on the money the idea of separate draws will be revisited after the existing ISM contract expires in two years. Hopefully, by then mule deer populations will have recovered and the general archery mule deer tag will be revisited, if the 15% allowable harvest for archery can be maintained.

Personally I think the government could give a rats azz about anything but money. They will do what they have to, to extract money from us. If they think they can get some extra cash from crossbow hunters by including them in the archery season they will. It won't matter what we say or do.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

If separate draws, one for archery and one for rifle, was posted in the other thread as being cast in stone then yes, I must have missed it.

An interesting fact in the poll on this thread is that only 25 people hunt with bow only and 421 people hunt with both bow and rifle. I think that those figures would translate into real life numbers where guys like me would prefer a combined draw where if I am unsuccessful with my bow I would have the opportunity go out with my rifle to fill my tag. I don't think that the hunting community would support separate archery/rifle draws and it will remain a combined draw.

I don't follow your logic regarding issuing fewer tags and being a poor way of managing our wildlife. Are you saying that the success rate will go up with the inclusion of crossbows? Why would that be, because all of the rifle only guys would rush out and purchase crossbows so they had an extra 2 months to hunt? If they can't pop a mulie with a rifle and a month during the rut to do it in, I doubt that their success rate will be any better with a crossbow and 2 months and no rut. Any change in success rates would be negligible IMO.

If they are issuing 82 rifle tags now and they add 18 more tags due to archery being included in the draw it will total 100 tags. It doesn't matter if there's 300 or 3000 people putting in for the draw or if they hunt archery or rifle, there will still be only 100 tags issued. Who cares how the tags are filled?

Sorry Dave, too late to do anything but copy and paste, too late to go to bed.
I'm sure this thread will still be alive when I can get back to answer your questions further. Maybe this will do?


From the Changes to Archery thread,

Originally Posted by killerbren

I dont know if you guys got this in your email box about a week ago but this is from the alberta bowhunters association.



AGMAG Dec 5, 2012 Meeting Highlights



The following is a brief outline of the two proposals for regulation change for the 2013 hunting season that will affect bowhunters the most. All items were discussed by the stakeholders and ESRD senior people. If anyone would like to see the individual proposals in their entirety send me an email and I will forward them to you – some are very lengthy.


Antlered mule deer archery to draw – this issue has been on the horizon for several years and we have been attending various stakeholder/ESRD meetings during that time. We have distributed lots of information to the ABA membership, to bowhunters in general to allow them to better understand the information out there, the harvest survey data collection system, the data itself, the ramifications if this proposal did happen. We have gotten lots of feedback and have brought that feedback to ESRD people and to the other stakeholders.

For 2013, archers will need the draw to bowhunt mule deer in the archery season in the following WMUs – this is a direct result of the trend where bowhunters harvested more than our 15% share (according to the harvest surveys).

100 WMU Series- 104, 108, 110, 130, 132, 134, 138, 140 and 156

200 WMU Series- 206, 208, 210, 214, 216, 220, 221, 222, 224 and 226

300 WMU series – 300, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 308 314, 318, 320, 322, 324, 332, 337, 357, 358, 359 and 360

400 WMU Series – 400 and 402

500 WMU Series - 502, 504, 506, 509, 510, 521, 522, 523, 526 and 527



Separate archery draw regime – we presented strong arguments to implement a separate archery draw for antlered mule deer (and broaden that to other species/WMUs where you now need a draw to bowhunt them in archery seasons). We have preliminary support from some stakeholders for this idea. The current proposal suggests bowhunters will enter the general draw pool. The idea for a separate draw cannot happen for two years as the current draw system contract is almost up and tenders have been sent to two companies to rework/update the system.

ALL outfitter archery non-res allocations for antlered mule deer in these affected WMUs have been pulled. Can use one of their general mule deer allocations.

Landowner tags for antlered mule deer has seen lots of discussions and there is lots of concern over this – more discussion will take place. Currently there is no way to determine the actual harvest of landowners on this tag (which is in effect a general tag). Could possibly add a box on the online harvest survey.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks Deer Hunter, keep it coming.

First....
Outfitter General allocations (Class O) CAN be used in the Archery Season. If and only If the new Outfitter Allocation agreement includes a reduction in Total allocation will this have any effect.


Second....
If the proposal goes ahead as stated, AF&W will have effectively sold out the Archery 15% agreement!

For starters, non-archery hunters will now be able to use the archery allocation in the general season, effectively transferring the allocation use to General. Creating an Archery/General MD Draw effectively eliminates the Archery Only allocation!



Now let's consider a Archery hunter opportunity LOST in a WMU with an allocation for 15 Archery MD and 85 General MD.

In A separate Archery Draw ( 15 animals on allocation), Archery success rates of 20% allow for 75 Licences.

The corresponding General Draw (85 animals on allocation), Rifle success rates of 75% allow for 113 Licences.


In a Combined Archery/General Draw ( 100 animals on allocation), the success rates of 75% (rifle success rates) would have to be used, which allows for 133 Licences, all of which can be used during the rifle season.

Summarized- 100 Animal allocation

Archery Only Draw - 75 Licences
General Weapon Draw - 113 Licences
Total- 188 Licences

Or

Combined Archery/General Weapon Draw - 133 Licences


This is a 30% reduction in Resident Hunter Opportunity! And it is potentially a 100% loss of Archery Only Hunter Opportunity!





This issue is NOT a Mule Deer Conservation Concern!

There is no conservation concern need to apply a combined Archery/General weapon Draw just because of issues with IBM.


AF&W needs to consider holdling off on an Archery Draw until it can provide it as a separate Draw season! If that means waiting two years, then so be it. That's what we do with outfitter allocation, we wait until the appropriate change is possible when there is No Conservation Concern!

[209x50]

So if you have a draw tag what difference does it make if you use a crossbow in archery season?

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if you have a draw tag what difference does it make if you use a crossbow in archery season?

Or a rifle... why just stop at xgun.....why not include all none archery gear ?

[Dark Wing]

First of all I neither use a compound bow or crossbow. I use similar tactics as bow hunters for white tail and take pride in getting extremely close to my prey. Now I've shot compound bows and it did take a little practice not a lot to consistantly hit the kill zone at 30 yards. I did practice shooting out of tree which was a little different but after compensating for the angle it wasn't very hard to figure out. At 20 -30 yards and 25' up a tree how often is a deer going to see an archer draw his bow ? From what I gathered was the biggest fear for cross bow equipment was the ease it would be for spot and stalking prairie mule deer but that is on a general draw for now. So that leaves elk and moose ? Mountain elk live in thick crap in the mountains and it makes extemely hard to make a cross bow shot with out bouncing your limbs off Aulders or willows and maybe a compound bow or rifle would be the better choice of weapon. It's hard enough to fill an elk tag with rifle let alone with an arrow or bolt. As far as moose it's another species that needs to if not already go on a general draw for both archery and rifle. So Ideally a cross bow would be an effective tool out of a tree stand or ground blind and not so great for spot and stalking due to it's size and weight. It was explained to me that the limbs need room to expand and could not be fired out of truck window with out causing damage to the bow or window. So the only way to this tool would be effective would be from a hunter on stand that has the skill to get close to animals. It won't make Newbies instant killing machines. I really don't see the threat from the use of crossbows in archery season.

[Lefty-Canuck]

As defined....if crossbows are allowed then it can no longer be called an Archery Only season....

If harvest rates go up due to crossbows being placed in general archery seasons....then those WMU's will be put on draw if the threshold is exceeded.

Crossbows are already allowed to be used by folks who have a permit to do so during archery season....

LC

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

First of all I neither use a compound bow or crossbow. I use similar tactics as bow hunters for white tail and take pride in getting extremely close to my prey. Now I've shot compound bows and it did take a little practice not a lot to consistantly hit the kill zone at 30 yards. I did practice shooting out of tree which was a little different but after compensating for the angle it wasn't very hard to figure out. At 20 -30 yards and 25' up a tree how often is a deer going to see an archer draw his bow ? From what I gathered was the biggest fear for cross bow equipment was the ease it would be for spot and stalking prairie mule deer but that is on a general draw for now. So that leaves elk and moose ? Mountain elk live in thick crap in the mountains and it makes extemely hard to make a cross bow shot with out bouncing your limbs off Aulders or willows and maybe a compound bow or rifle would be the better choice of weapon. It's hard enough to fill an elk tag with rifle let alone with an arrow or bolt. As far as moose it's another species that needs to if not already go on a general draw for both archery and rifle. So Ideally a cross bow would be an effective tool out of a tree stand or ground blind and not so great for spot and stalking due to it's size and weight. It was explained to me that the limbs need room to expand and could not be fired out of truck window with out causing damage to the bow or window. So the only way to this tool would be effective would be from a hunter on stand that has the skill to get close to animals. It won't make Newbies instant killing machines. I really don't see the threat from the use of crossbows in archery season.

Unfortunately this post comes across as someone who has been filled in, rather than experienced xguns or Bowhunting for himself. ... jmo

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

First of all I neither use a compound bow or crossbow. I use similar tactics as bow hunters for white tail and take pride in getting extremely close to my prey. Now I've shot compound bows and it did take a little practice not a lot to consistantly hit the kill zone at 30 yards. I did practice shooting out of tree which was a little different but after compensating for the angle it wasn't very hard to figure out. At 20 -30 yards and 25' up a tree how often is a deer going to see an archer draw his bow ? From what I gathered was the biggest fear for cross bow equipment was the ease it would be for spot and stalking prairie mule deer but that is on a general draw for now. So that leaves elk and moose ? Mountain elk live in thick crap in the mountains and it makes extemely hard to make a cross bow shot with out bouncing your limbs off Aulders or willows and maybe a compound bow or rifle would be the better choice of weapon. It's hard enough to fill an elk tag with rifle let alone with an arrow or bolt. As far as moose it's another species that needs to if not already go on a general draw for both archery and rifle. So Ideally a cross bow would be an effective tool out of a tree stand or ground blind and not so great for spot and stalking due to it's size and weight. It was explained to me that the limbs need room to expand and could not be fired out of truck window with out causing damage to the bow or window. So the only way to this tool would be effective would be from a hunter on stand that has the skill to get close to animals. It won't make Newbies instant killing machines. I really don't see the threat from the use of crossbows in archery season.

Exactly the point,,,, crossbows are not stalking weapons,,,, anyone moving around with full cocked cross bow is an accident waiting to happen. There may be a slight crossbow advantage when stand hunting, but you still need the moxy to know where to stand and the patience to sit there,,, that my friends, ain't as easy as it sounds for most hunters!!!

Will there be more hunters using the archery seasons if cross bows were allowed? Most certainly, particularily during the first year or two,,, but then numbers will likely level off or drop as the 'newbies" realize the limtations of the crossbow.

Will more critters be shot during archery season with the inclusion of crossbows? If there are more hunters, then of course there will be more deer shot.

But will the success rate go up? Likely not significantly and one could argue it might even fall with the influx of inexperienced "short range hunting newbies".

This whole debate is a lot like fly anglers arguing for fly fishing only water!!!

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

As defined....if crossbows are allowed then it can no longer be called an Archery Only season....

If harvest rates go up due to crossbows being placed in general archery seasons....then those WMU's will be put on draw if the threshold is exceeded.

Crossbows are already allowed to be used by folks who have a permit to do so during archery season....

LC

I have had a "bad" left shoulder for several years now which has prevented me from drawing a bow and bowhunting. I have not been able to get a handicap permit becuz of the question in the form asking if it is possible for the condition to improve within the next three years which with the therapy I have been taking was always the expected result. I finally had an arthoscopic MRI on my shoulder which indicated a very extensive labral tear in addition to the torn rotator cuff that was being "treated". The only way to repair the labral tear is surgery for which I now wait (and wait) and afterwards there would a signifcant recovery period of up to 6 months. And I still don't qualify for the handicap permit becuz of the "three year rule".

I have done a lot of bowhunting in the past and also tried the crossbow. The crossbow configuration is not particularily hunter friendly and they are actually more limited in their use than a regular bow as it is more difficult to manouver a crossbow through cover and the act of cocking a crossbow requires signifcantly more movement and effort than a regular bow. With a cross bow you must be ready and cocked for the shot before the opportunity presents itself, basically limiting yourself to stand hunting.

My preference would be to bowhunt if I could shoot one but as it is right now I am excluded from any archery season and I highly doubt I am the only hunter that falls through the cracks with the current laws.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if you have a draw tag what difference does it make if you use a crossbow in archery season?

This is exactly what I've been trying to explain in the last 2 pages.....It doesn't matter one lick if crossbows were included with bows and rifles if they are on a combined draw and any increase in success rates would either be non-existent or negligible. See my post #147

[HunterDave]

"Separate archery draw regime – we presented strong arguments to implement a separate archery draw for antlered mule deer (and broaden that to other species/WMUs where you now need a draw to bowhunt them in archery seasons). We have preliminary support from some stakeholders for this idea. The current proposal suggests bowhunters will enter the general draw pool. The idea for a separate draw cannot happen for two years as the current draw system contract is almost up and tenders have been sent to two companies to rework/update the system."

This is coming from the ABA and what they want, a proposal, and there is nothing concrete about it happening the way that they want it to. I don't have as much background knowledge of this issue as you but I see it as being relatively simple to understand.......Have a combined archery/rifle draw or separate draws for each. I explained why I don't see this proposal getting much support in my post #147. Just look at the numbers of bow/rifle hunters vs bow only hunters in this poll and think about the small percentage of bow only guys that separate draws would benefit. It's a dumb idea and the hunting community including the ABA bow/rifle hunting membership will figure that out I'm sure.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

This is exactly what I've been trying to explain in the last 2 pages.....It doesn't matter one lick if crossbows were included with bows and rifles if they are on a combined draw and any increase in success rates would either be non-existent or negligible. See my post #147

Your explanation is false.

209's question regards bows and crossbows. Apple.
You are combining bows, crossbows and firearms....Horseapple.


I see a trend in your research to skim a little too fast past information that does not fit into your opinion.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

As defined....if crossbows are allowed then it can no longer be called an Archery Only season....

If harvest rates go up due to crossbows being placed in general archery seasons....then those WMU's will be put on draw if the threshold is exceeded.

Crossbows are already allowed to be used by folks who have a permit to do so during archery season....

LC

First point.....ESRD can change the current definition to include crossbows.....too easy.

Second point......People need to stop thinking about including crossbow into archery only season province wide for all species and start thinking about where they could be used and not impact anything. The archery mule deer draw is a perfect example. With a combined archery/rifle draw it wouldn't make any difference, success rates or otherwise, if they were included. See my post #147 for a better explanation.

Third.....Yes, with a permit crossbows are allowed to be used during archery only season.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Your explanation is false.

If it's false then why not address my post #147 point by point.

I think that we've already determined that the draw system for separate draws is merely an ABA proposal and nothing is cast in stone so that can be taken off the table as being the way that it will be done.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

If it's false then why not address my post #147 point by point.

I think that we've already determined that the draw system for separate draws is merely an ABA proposal and nothing is cast in stone so that can be taken off the table as being the way that it will be done.

I did in post 156. There you go skimming again....

A combined Archery/General weapon draw season will reduce the available number of licences by 30% compared to having separate draws where a person can only hold a licence in either the Archery or General weapon season.

Does reducing resident hunter opportunity by 30% sound like a good idea to you?



You are right in that future changes are not in effect today and anything can happen. You are implying that the future draw system change is only an ABA proposal, are you sure about that? It might be best if you don't make assumptions.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I did in post 156. There you go skimming again....

A combined Archery/General weapon draw season will reduce the available number of licences by 30% compared to having separate draws where a person can only hold a licence in either the Archery or General weapon season.

Does reducing resident hunter opportunity by 30% sound like a good idea to you?

You are right in that future changes are not in effect today and anything can happen. You are implying that the future draw system change is only an ABA proposal, are you sure about that? It might be best if you don't make assumptions.

Yes, I'll admit that I skimmed but only because I chose to stick to the facts. Time will tell if your opinion of what the tag allocations will be is correct or not......when ESRD releases the number of tags after the draw. Unless you have those numbers now.

I admit that you are much more knowledgeable re the new draws than I am but I'm not sure that you are correct in how tags will be allocated as a result of the draw. My thinking is that there will be an increase in the number of tags allocated due to adding bowhunters to the draw and I can't see ESRD creating the new draw and simply keeping the allocation the same. Time will tell I guess.

Regardless of the number of tags issued, because that has nothing to do with crossbows, if they don't change the allocation and it is 133 tags for both bowhunters and rifle hunters as per your explanation.......How would including crossbows into the archery only season change anything in this instance?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

You are right in that future changes are not in effect today and anything can happen. You are implying that the future draw system change is only an ABA proposal, are you sure about that? It might be best if you don't make assumptions.

I can only comment on the facts that are available to me and I read the ABA proposal to a new draw that was created by ESRD. I am commenting on what I know and nothing more. If anyone else (ie. AFGA) has made similar or different proposals I am not aware of them so I can't comment on what I don't know about can I? If you have additional facts to share then why beat around the bush and play games.......spit it out.

[jip911]

The amount of opportunity available is directly correlated to the expected success rate of the hunters.

Bringing x-bows into the archery season will result in higher success rates, thus reducing overall allocations...

Simple...
J

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by jip911

The amount of opportunity available is directly correlated to the expected success rate of the hunters.

Bringing x-bows into the archery season will result in higher success rates, thus reducing overall allocations...

Simple...
J

Simple only if you give it no thought. The people entering the new draw are already hunting with either a bow, a rifle or both. How in your mind is including crossbows into a draw like this going to increase the success rate.....from the bowhunters and rifle hunters already entering the draw or from people that never hunted before running out and buying crossbows (good luck to them)? Unless the deer just keel over at the sight of a crossbow, there would be no noticeable increase/decrease in the success rate.

[jip911]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Simple only if you give it no thought. The people entering the new draw are already hunting with either a bow, a rifle or both. How in your mind is including crossbows into a draw like this going to increase the success rate.....from the bowhunters and rifle hunters already entering the draw or from people that never hunted before running out and buying crossbows (good luck to them)? Unless the deer just keel over at the sight of a crossbow, there would be no noticeable increase/decrease in the success rate.

Example:
100 animals determined to be within sustainable limits
15% success rate for archery only hunters
15 animals expected to be harvested with archery gear
= 100 bow hunters in the field that shoot 15 animals
----------------------------
75% success rate for rifle/x-bow hunters
85 animals expected to be harvested by rifle/x-bow hunters
= 114 rifle hunters in the field that shoot 85 animals

---------------------------------------------------
total of 214 hunters getting the opportunity to shoot 100 animals 100 on a general archery and 114 draw applications.

--------------------------------------------
same example factoring in that x-bow hunters are 15% more successful than trad archery hunters
100 animals determined to be within sustainable limits
30% success rate for archery & x-bow hunters
30 animals expected to be harvested with archery and x-bows
= 100 bow hunters in the field that shoot 30 animals
----------------------------
75% success rate for rifle/x-bow hunters
70 animals expected to be harvested by rifle/x-bow hunters
= 93 rifle hunters in the field that shoot 70 animals
---------------------------------------------
total of 193 hunters getting the opportunity to shoot 100 animals,

this is not taking into account that more hunters will use x-bows in the archery season thus driving success up in that aspect, or the fact that less bow hunters will be able to hit the field as they will be competing for the same 100 animals to be harvested and have longer waits to draw... so opportunity will go down for all hunters regardless of weapon... as more hunters hunt with rifle than bow lets cut the bow hunter numbers in half for simplicity... way more hunters hunt with rifle than bow so the bow guys are going to be waiting even longer to draw...

--------------------------------------------
same example
100 animals determined to be within sustainable limits
30% success rate for archery & x-bow hunters
15 animals expected to be harvested with archery and x-bows
= 50 bow hunters in the field that shoot 15 animals
----------------------------
75% success rate for rifle/x-bow hunters
85 animals expected to be harvested by rifle/x-bow hunters
= 114 rifle hunters in the field that shoot 85 animals
---------------------------------------------
total of 164 hunters getting the opportunity to shoot 100 animals,

Do you see what i'm saying, obviously these numbers would have to be vetted but you can certainly see that 164 hunters getting the opportunity to hunt 100 animals is far from the 214 that presently do...

I will say it again, the number of allocation directly hinges on hunter success rates.... the number of animals harvested is still fixed at 100 in the example...

lets pretend the whole area is on draw, regardless of season... and everyone hunted with rifles...
75% success rate for rifle hunters
100 animals expected to be harvested by rifle/x-bow hunters
= 133 rifle hunters in the field that shoot 100 animals

even less opportunity...

Please don't come back and tell me percentage X should be Y.... the numbers are just to illustrate the concept.

a quote from ohio "Every year they grow in popularity, and in the past decade the number of archery hunters who used a crossbow has been about the same as the number who hunt with compounds, recurves and longbows combined. In Ohio’s 2007–08 deer season, crossbow hunters harvested more than 42,000 whitetails, more even than “vertical” bow hunters, who took a record 36,347 deer"

This article suggests that the numbers are "about the same" but x-bows harvested more game....

Have a look at some of the stats in the states... hunters have more success with x-bows over regular (vertical) bows...

J

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if you have a draw tag what difference does it make if you use a crossbow in archery season?

I would guess because it is an archery only season and the assume a certain success rate.

IMO Hunting with a bow that needs to be drawn back is Archery. A cross bow is not much different from a muzzle loader with the exception on the modern muzzleloader that can shoot 200 yards. You load a bolt have a safety and go hunting animal comes in you get into a shooting position and release the safety and pull the trigger. As mentioned a cross bow can be shot from a prone position and from a rest also in general the hunter and bow have a much lower profile.
To bow hunt you have to draw a bow when your game is in range and be in a clear line of sight for the animal with a much higher profile....also my bow doesn't have a scope and relies heavily on my shooting technique that I have practiced.

A X-Bow is closer to a gun IMO and if anything I would support its use in a traditional season but not in a archery season.

The difference or advantages in a Compound Bow VS a X-Bow is like a Muzzle loader VS a High Powered Rifle they are kind of similar but one has an advantage over the other.

[HunterDave]

jip, I know that you spent a bit of time putting your post together but your formulas are flawed. The biggest problem that you have with it is the success rate at 30%. That in itself skewed everything. I won't spend all day picking it apart but I will present a few points for you. From the quote in the article that you posted (Real numbers - why didn't you use them?):

In the year of the stats there were 78347 deer harvested with bows. Of that amount 42000 were taken with crossbows = 53.6%. The remaining 36347 deer harvested by vertical bow = 46.4%. That is a difference of 7.2%.

You mentioned general season however there won't be any general because it is going to be a combined archery/rifle draw for mulies. Forget about general.

I think that it's reasonable to say that the number of crossbow hunters in the wmu's designated to go on draw will be no where near equal to the number of vertical bow hunters. How do I know this? Because the same bowhunters and rifle hunters will still be the same people putting in to the same draw for the same wmu that they always have. Perhaps some vertical bow and rifle hunters may try crossbow hunting though, so let's say that 10% do. That's a whopping increase in the success rate of .72% or, not even one tag per hundred tags issued.

Anyway, I got the point that you were trying to make but you didn't convince me and I still maintain that the inclusion of crossbows during archery only season in the wmu's now on draw for mulies would have little to no impact on anything.

[LA_bowhunter]

I voted no but there still needs to be other choices. I would see them as a good option for people under 16 and over 65 as well as those eligible for the disabled clause.

[jip911]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

jip, I know that you spent a bit of time putting your post together but your formulas are flawed. The biggest problem that you have with it is the success rate at 30%. That in itself skewed everything. I won't spend all day picking it apart but I will present a few points for you. From the quote in the article that you posted (Real numbers - why didn't you use them?):
Here is a link to the article... http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...ow-controversy

233000 dear taken... 78347 taken by bows/x-bows... that makes 33.6% of total harvest with bows/x-bow.. In these numbers I don't know if there was 78347 hunters in the field and they had 100% success or if there was double that and they had 50% success... I went to another source that stated 30-35% success rate... I went low...

In the year of the stats there were 78347 deer harvested with bows. Of that amount 42000 were taken with crossbows = 53.6%. The remaining 36347 deer harvested by vertical bow = 46.4%. That is a difference of 7.2%.
Again, numbers were for illustration purpose, I think the numbers illustrate the effect of greater success rates well..

You mentioned general season however there won't be any general because it is going to be a combined archery/rifle draw for mulies. Forget about general.

I think that it's reasonable to say that the number of crossbow hunters in the wmu's designated to go on draw will be no where near equal to the number of vertical bow hunters. How do I know this? Because the same bowhunters and rifle hunters will still be the same people putting in to the same draw for the same wmu that they always have. Perhaps some vertical bow and rifle hunters may try crossbow hunting though, so let's say that 10% do. That's a whopping increase in the success rate of .72% or, not even one tag per hundred tags issued.
Your missing 2 key points... Where do you think all the x-bow hunters from Ohio came from... Did they just move to the state? NO... they were bow and rifle hunters... who picked up x-bows. and it appears they are having great success.... great success=less opportunity... Point 2... having one draw for both rifle/archery means less people in the field hunting... if there were 10 bow hunters hunting the general season and 100 rifle hunters trying to draw 1 tag there would be 11 people in the field... now there will be 110 hunters trying to draw maybe 2 tags... that means only 2 hunters will get to hit the field instead of 11

Anyway, I got the point that you were trying to make but you didn't convince me and I still maintain that the inclusion of crossbows during archery only season in the wmu's now on draw for mulies would have little to no impact on anything.
Anyways... We see things differently... I can live with that... I hope that all hunters can compromise to ensure the opportunity remains to get as many of us into the field as often as possible

Have a great day!
J

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by jip911

The amount of opportunity available is directly correlated to the expected success rate of the hunters.

Bringing x-bows into the archery season will result in higher success rates, thus reducing overall allocations...

Simple...
J

So?

If we use that line of thought then perhaps we should re-think the allowance of compound bow use.
Sounds to me like it might be easier for everyone to get a tag if we did that.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by LA_bowhunter

I voted no but there still needs to be other choices. I would see them as a good option for people under 16 and over 65 as well as those eligible for the disabled clause.

Great post LA ! I am a Senior and could never understand not having this option cast in stone. Why wait until one is so disabled and crippled up that you can't hunt comfortably ? A Doctors certificate doesn't help much at that stage. Gad, I've enjoyed a free fishing license for more than a decade and myself and all the other Seniors still haven't depleted the Fish populations. Hell, I can't even use my X-bow on my own property. FWIW I have a Longbow, a Recurve and a Compound as well as a few Rifles. It's free choices I really like when it comes to choosing Hunting Tools.