Nosler Partition or Accubond???

[noneck180]

Promise last off topic post:
With the reorganization of the Cuban economy during the last years, tobacco has been displaced from the second position of exportable productions, regarding the incomes it provides, but it is still between the first ones because of its world-wide recognized quality

[flint]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Flint, if you actually read what I posted, you'd have seen that I said that there were basically two wound channels, a permanent caused by the bullet going through the flesh and a secondary, non-permanent that is a result of that "energy". While the two work together to shock the animal, in all but the most rare of cases, it's only the permanent wound channel that causes death. The non-permanent wound channel can cause a temporary disruption of organs, nervous system and such....a knock down factor of sorts but only in very rare cases does energy actually kill when a bullet strikes an animal.

Energy can also be used as part of the calculation in comparing penetration of equal bullets. Manufacturers really don't need to include the energy as energy in tables is a direct result of velocity and mass. Throw a one pound rock twice as fast as another one pound rock and it has twice as much energy. Energy is one of those over used and little understood terms when it comes to bullets. It was important in the days before controled expansion bullets but honestly has far less importance these days. Energy does not kill nor does it have a universal effect on the penetration of all bullets.

No need to be condescending, I'm just passing along what I've learned along the way. BTW, the 53 year old age card has little effect on this 50 year old....

I believe that energy has a bigger part in killing the animal than what you think you know. After harvesting 98 big game animals (non guided---in fact I have never been guided on a hunt) and guided many hunters from around the world over the past seven years, I believe that energy kills equally as the actual wound channel. Of course most hunters know that energy is measured by bullet diameter X bullet weight X bullet volocity X distance. Once there is impact from the bullet the animal receives a shock wave so immense (something that we couldn't imagine) that vital organs are tramatized to the extent of shutting down the entire nervous system. This paralizes the animal and it falls to the ground, hence the term knockdown power. Some animals fall, some fall regain their composure and flee, and others just flee and fall at a further distance. Why do some animals regain after falling and flee or just fleeing is not known. I can only speculate that some animals have a higher pain threshold than others. Bloodshot is caused by bullet shock and I have witnessed bloodshot soft tissue damage from one end of the animal to the other. (external and internal) To state a "temporary disruption" is rather a passive/mild way of discribing what little energy does to an animal.

[rightroad]

Originally Posted by duceman

are you sure you're on the right thread? must be some super velocity in that lapua, lee.

No super velocities on my Lapua. The aformentioned loads data lists 2853fps.
I'll use a friends chrono this spring and have more to say then.

The exact load is COL 3.681, 98 gr Retumbo, Win chester mag primers on Norma brass. It's as close as I can get to reproducing a NATO cartridge. My Rem has a 1:12 twist.

No experience with any other bullets than Accubond and Sierras.

[leo]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Captain Morgan Spiced Rum is the best,, with a Cuban Cigar

X2 Damn Strait!

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by JustinC

thanks fo the kind words anything else????? My spelling sucks so what. I dont really care whhat you think.Are you going to effect my life nope.Grow up troll.


Also that thread was my retraction of my unethical comment.But thanks for posting it.

May I suggest neurosurgical intervention? ie: lobotomy to "affect" your life. I can help you with that.....for free.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

May I suggest neurosurgical intervention? ie: lobotomy to "affect" your life. I can help you with that.....for free.

I find it funny how you ar etalking tough now.Is taht what you are doing? I am not scared of you either.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by flint

I believe that energy has a bigger part in killing the animal than what you think you know. After harvesting 98 big game animals (non guided---in fact I have never been guided on a hunt) and guided many hunters from around the world over the past seven years, I believe that energy kills equally as the actual wound channel. Of course most hunters know that energy is measured by bullet diameter X bullet weight X bullet volocity X distance. Once there is impact from the bullet the animal receives a shock wave so immense (something that we couldn't imagine) that vital organs are tramatized to the extent of shutting down the entire nervous system. This paralizes the animal and it falls to the ground, hence the term knockdown power. Some animals fall, some fall regain their composure and flee, and others just flee and fall at a further distance. Why do some animals regain after falling and flee or just fleeing is not known. I can only speculate that some animals have a higher pain threshold than others. Bloodshot is caused by bullet shock and I have witnessed bloodshot soft tissue damage from one end of the animal to the other. (external and internal) To state a "temporary disruption" is rather a passive/mild way of discribing what little energy does to an animal.

Nice read. Thanks

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by JustinC

I find it funny how you ar etalking tough now.Is taht what you are doing? I am not scared of you either.

Not talking tough, just offering alternatives to your relentless stalking of someone who undoubtedtly knows a lot more than you do. I'm thinking you've been pithed at a young age. Not your fault, just circumstances.

[gitrdun]

Ok, it's been 7 minutes, plenty time for you to google "pithed" but you probably had to type it several times to get it right 'cause there's an "H" in it. It's not the same as pi$$ed, or pitted or whatever you came up with....take your time, you'll eventually get it..... go sssllllloooowwww now

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Promise last off topic post:
With the reorganization of the Cuban economy during the last years, tobacco has been displaced from the second position of exportable productions, regarding the incomes it provides, but it is still between the first ones because of its world-wide recognized quality

good job looks like we got this thread back on track

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Not talking tough, just offering alternatives to your relentless stalking of someone who undoubtedtly knows a lot more than you do. I'm thinking you've been pithed at a young age. Not your fault, just circumstances.

No I am not stalking anybody. They pop up after me. You take your word and cram it. I dont care what it means.I was doing other things.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Ok, it's been 7 minutes, plenty time for you to google "pithed" but you probably had to type it several times to get it right 'cause there's an "H" in it. It's not the same as pi$$ed, or pitted or whatever you came up with....take your time, you'll eventually get it..... go sssllllloooowwww now

[elkhunter11]

Of course most hunters know that energy is measured by bullet diameter X bullet weight X bullet volocity X distance.

I don't see bullet diameter ,or distance mentioned in any of the calculations below.

http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/...s/calcnrg.html

Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175

Where weight is in grains, and velocity is in feet/second.

7000 is grains per pound, and 32.175 is acceleration due to gravity.

It can be re-written:
Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450

or

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNBLST.html

Kinetic Energy (KE) = 1/2 MV2

Velocity (V) is usually given in feet/second (fps) and mass (M) is given in pounds, derived from the weight (W) of the bullet in grains, divided by 7000 grains per pound times the acceleration of gravity (32 ft/sec) so that:

Kinetic Energy (KE) = W(V)2 / (450,435) ft/lb

Originally Posted by flint

IOf course most hunters know that energy is measured by bullet diameter X bullet weight X bullet volocity X distance. .

Not any of the hunters that I know....energy is a pretty simple calculation that only includes velocity and mass. Not sure why you have velocity and distance in your calculation. They are directly proportional. The further away an animal is, the more loss of velocity. Distance is irrelevant. Only velocity at that distance matters.

As for animals falling down and getting back up, it's pretty easy to explain. The temporary disruption of the nervous system wasn't enough to keep them down and the permanent wound chanel wasn't instantly lethal. Energy doesn't kill except in rare circumstances. The kenetic energy of a bullet isn't that great in the scheme of things.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by flint

Once there is impact from the bullet the animal receives a shock wave so immense (something that we couldn't imagine) that vital organs are tramatized to the extent of shutting down the entire nervous system. This paralizes the animal and it falls to the ground, hence the term knockdown power. Some animals fall, some fall regain their composure and flee, and others just flee and fall at a further distance. Why do some animals regain after falling and flee or just fleeing is not known. I can only speculate that some animals have a higher pain threshold than others. Bloodshot is caused by bullet shock and I have witnessed bloodshot soft tissue damage from one end of the animal to the other. (external and internal) To state a "temporary disruption" is rather a passive/mild way of discribing what little energy does to an animal.

Actually we can imagine it and have extensively filmed it and studied it to death (pun intended!) Terms like hydrostatic shock and the killer shock wave have been disproven by some very qualified entities like the US government and military, many state studies and imminent people in the field.

[gitrdun]

Wasn't it so much simpler when there was only ONE bullet to hunt with....a lead ball of .50 caliber that you carved out of a mold and called it a day. Back then, there was no arguments as to which bullet was the right choice. 'Cause if you didn't make the right choice, well then you didn't have to watch Richard Simmonds on TV for weight loss....t'was a natural progession of things.

[super7mag]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not any of the hunters that I know....energy is a pretty simple calculation that only includes velocity and mass. Not sure why you have velocity and distance in your calculation. They are directly proportional. The further away an animal is, the more loss of velocity. Distance is irrelevant. Only velocity at that distance matters.

As for animals falling down and getting back up, it's pretty easy to explain. The temporary disruption of the nervous system wasn't enough to keep them down and the permanent wound chanel wasn't instantly lethal. Energy doesn't kill except in rare circumstances. The kenetic energy of a bullet isn't that great in the scheme of things.

Now hunting is one thing but the same cannot be said for military type arms. any info coming from operators out of Iraq or Afgan say pretty much the opposite they really despise the 5.56 round for normal combat and would prefer nato to change to the 6.8ppc. And if you read the actual book of blackhawk down there are several references to the 5.56 round not putting intended targets down, hence the revival of sorts of the m1a in 7.62 currently in the usmc. I know it's a whole other topic but energy has to play a part in the kill or we could use fmj to hunt deer with. Again it's just an opinion but an opinion of guys who depend on the round they use to save there own life and of guys serving with them it should count for something.

Originally Posted by super7mag

Now hunting is one thing but the same cannot be said for military type arms. any info coming from operators out of Iraq or Afgan say pretty much the opposite they really despise the 5.56 round for normal combat and would prefer nato to change to the 6.8ppc. And if you read the actual book of blackhawk down there are several references to the 5.56 round not putting intended targets down, hence the revival of sorts of the m1a in 7.62 currently in the usmc. I know it's a whole other topic but energy has to play a part in the kill or we could use fmj to hunt deer with. Again it's just an opinion but an opinion of guys who depend on the round they use to save there own life and of guys serving with them it should count for something.

No one here has said that energy isn't a big influence in the knockdown factor but energy itself can rarely kill. Like I said many posts ago, there's a one/two punch with the two wound channels. I'd never underestimate the importance of energy, it just seems there are a lot of misconceptions as to how it actually effects the body and what role it plays in bullet performance. One other thing to consider with larger diameter bullets is a larger diameter wound channel as well, which again, has nothing to do with energy but everything to do with tissue damage and bleeding.

As to the fmj comment, again, an expanding bullet creates a much greater permanent and temporary wound channel and the jagged edges of the expanded bullets and fragments damage tissue more effectively than the smoother fmj. The initial expansion of a bullet creates a huge temporary wound channel and undoubtedly much of the knockdown punch.

[noneck180]

SH,

Is is there tissue damage when there is lung soup?? If energy doesn't kill jump infront of bus, then log back on tell us how things went.

Originally Posted by noneck180

SH,

Is is there tissue damage when there is lung soup?? If energy doesn't kill jump infront of bus, then log back on tell us how things went.

If you read what I actually posted you'd see I never said it doesn't kill...I said it rarely kills as in your example but truthfully, weren't we talking about bullets here? I fail to see what a bus has to do with bullet performance.

[super7mag]

I knew it's a stretch to bring up military arms and situtations, the fact is larger calibers have more of both size of wound channel and ft/lbs of energy. Tough to tell what does all the killing. they just do.

[noneck180]

Well if you didn't blither on and on a guy might understand what you are trying to say, not that I care actually. Bus, no it doesn't have anything to do with hunting, just thought I would throw that in for my own amusement.

DON'T DO IT, I WAS KIDDING

Originally Posted by super7mag

I knew it's a stretch to bring up military arms and situtations, the fact is larger calibers have more of both size of wound channel and ft/lbs of energy. Tough to tell what does all the killing. they just do.

No stretch at all. It's actually pretty well studied and documented by the miltary. If you've got a couple days to kill, there's some facinating stuff on the net.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Well if you didn't blither on and on a guy might understand what you are trying to say, not that I care actually. Bus, no it doesn't have anything to do with hunting, just thought I would throw that in for my own amusement.

DON'T DO IT, I WAS KIDDING

Alright curiosity has gotten the better of me here. How much game have you actually killed?

Originally Posted by noneck180

Well if you didn't blither on and on a guy might understand what you are trying to say, not that I care actually.

Then why did you ask?

[noneck180]

Genius

[super7mag]

Actually when my wife was in having our last baby I made a trip to find some reading material, I was shocked no hunting mags on the shelf, no shooting times or rifle shooter, so I picked up a copy of Tactical Operator, turned out to be a good read, lots on ballistics and long range shooting, from the guys that know it best. I also frequent snipers hide every now and then, if it can be done to a 700 action some one on there has done it.

[noneck180]

Originally Posted by chuck

Alright curiosity has gotten the better of me here. How much game have you actually killed?

Enough

[209x50]

A very fascinating study was done in the 90's by a southern state on just under 500 deer killed on a hunt club. Because of the setup the results were highly controlled and documented. Of the 253 instant bang flops 222 could be shown to have directly contacted/caused trama to the spine. Some of the results are: Bucks and does reacted equally to killing shots, 1 in 4 deer don't react at all to the shot impact and deer shot with a .277 cal averaged 31 yards of travel before dieing as compared to 33 yards for those shot with a .308 cal bullet. The study seperated out bullet types and construction and cartridges. It was very well done. Lots of great info that doesn't support shock killing anything, not even little southern deer.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Then why did you ask?

I think it is his awkward attempt at being glib.