Paid Hunting

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

A lot of passionate responses here.

The one thing in common is that everyone here has experienced hunting in a environment that was crafted after the Aldo Leopold model for hunting.

Its sad that some cant figure that out.

There seems to be little desire for many to pay attention to our history or understand why we even have Wildlife today, and no desire at all for some when the thought of money is in the picture....




Our successful management of wildlife today is thanks to those who's intellect could foresee the dangers of privatizing wildlife. Thanks to the likes of Leopold, Roosevelt and Grinnell (who together formed The Boone and Crockett), John Lacey (Lacey Act) and Charles Hewitt (Migratory Bird Treaty Convention) our wildlife in Canada was restored through the principals conveyed in the The North American Model For Wildlife Management

A review. http://wildlife.org/documents/techni...nservation.pdf


Of importance....


Seven Pillars Of Wildlife Management

1. Wildlife resources are a public trust.

2. Markets for game are eliminated.

3. Allocation of wildlife is by law.

4. Wildlife can be killed only for a legitimate purpose.

5. Wildlife is considered an international resource.

6. Science is the proper tool to discharge
wildlife policy.

7. Democracy of hunting is standard.



Pillar #7 is what we are discussing here.

Democracy of hunting is standard.
Reduction in, and access to, huntable lands compromise the principle of
egalitarianism in hunting opportunity. Restrictive firearms
legislation can act as a barrier hindering participation.


Theodore Roosevelt believed that access for all to
have the opportunity to hunt would result in many
societal benefits (Roosevelt et al. 1902:18-20).
Leopold termed this “democracy of sport” (Meine
1988:169), and it sets Canada and the U.S. apart
from many other nations where the opportunity to
hunt is restricted to those who have special status,
such as land ownership, wealth, or other privileges.
The greatest historical standing of the public trust is
that certain interests are so intrinsically important to
people that their free availability marks the society
as one of citizens rather than serfs (Sax 1970). The
opportunity for citizens in good standing to hunt in
Canada and the U.S. is a hallmark of our democracy.

[fish gunner]

Ask your selves how would your great grand fathers would have fed your ancestors if paid access existed even 50yrs ago. Read your history, trespass did not stand as a charge on its own in our county 50 yrs ago.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

Maybe a few responsible, ethical hunters on your land would discourage that, or at least you would have a few more eyes in the field to catch it. Just sayin.

A pick up parked at a approach or fenceline keeps more people off than a sign.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

There seems to be little desire for many to pay attention to our history or understand why we even have Wildlife today, and no desire at all for some when the thought of money is in the picture....




Our successful management of wildlife today is thanks to those who's intellect could foresee the dangers of privatizing wildlife. Thanks to the likes of Leopold, Roosevelt and Grinnell (who together formed The Boone and Crockett), John Lacey (Lacey Act) and Charles Hewitt (Migratory Bird Treaty Convention) our wildlife in Canada was restored through the principals conveyed in the The North American Model For Wildlife Management

A review. http://wildlife.org/documents/techni...nservation.pdf



Of importance....


Seven Pillars Of Wildlife Management

1. Wildlife resources are a public trust.

2. Markets for game are eliminated.

3. Allocation of wildlife is by law.

4. Wildlife can be killed only for a legitimate purpose.

5. Wildlife is considered an international resource.

6. Science is the proper tool to discharge
wildlife policy.

7. Democracy of hunting is standard.



Pillar #7 is what we are discussing here.

Democracy of hunting is standard.
Reduction in, and access to, huntable lands compromise the principle of
egalitarianism in hunting opportunity. Restrictive firearms
legislation can act as a barrier hindering participation.


Theodore Roosevelt believed that access for all to
have the opportunity to hunt would result in many
societal benefits (Roosevelt et al. 1902:18-20).
Leopold termed this “democracy of sport” (Meine
1988:169), and it sets Canada and the U.S. apart
from many other nations where the opportunity to
hunt is restricted to those who have special status,
such as land ownership, wealth, or other privileges.
The greatest historical standing of the public trust is
that certain interests are so intrinsically important to
people that their free availability marks the society
as one of citizens rather than serfs (Sax 1970). The
opportunity for citizens in good standing to hunt in
Canada and the U.S. is a hallmark of our democracy.

Thank you for the truth . We should as a community be shamed this is not all encompassing.

[bchap22]

I have read through the last 5 pages of this thread and it is unfortunate that hunting has come down to $$$. I know for a fact that i can't afford to pay for access. I know there is a lot of money in alberta but i can't see the majority of hunters being able to afford to pay access nor people willing to pay. Has to be a demand for it to be a profitable proposition and i just can't see it happening. It really is unfortunate that hunting in this province has come down to landowners wanting money to allow hunters on. I know one thing, don't be surprised landowners if you think you had a problem now with poachers and trespassers. Im sure that if you get your way with the paid access BS it will only get worse. You can put all that extra income into policing your own land 24/7 as you won't have the little old hunter looking out for trouble makes and taking down license plates for you! In the end all greedy pigs get slaughtered. Not to mention with the lack of hunters and hunting pressure your land will be soon over run with wildlife and you think you had problems now with the elk and deer wrecking crops and bails just wait. You will learn the how priceless quality hunters really are! Paid hunting will be the start of your own demise cause i can't see the gov't giving hand outs for crop damage if you are being paid for hunting access as well. For now i will stay optimistic and hope that the ones pulling for paid hunting are few and far between.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Thank you for the truth . We should as a community be shamed this is not all encompassing.

X2 But this is Alberta and money will carry the day, lots on this board wouldn't blink at dropping bucks for their buck.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

X2 But this is Alberta and money will carry the day, lots on this board wouldn't blink at dropping bucks for their buck.

One born every day ... fools and money something something. Old sayings ring true, those that can do ,those that cant pay for the pleasue.

[cal9mm]

Originally Posted by AtimoseMan

cal9mm - you hit the nail on the head with the problem I have with these Road Poachers as I call them. I got totally turned off and have no use for these guys.We counted 43 pick ups in 2 hours and most of them with tinted windows so you can't see who they are. 43 out of 43 never asked us for permission,sure funny they drive by my hay field at 20 km/hr and some tell me there not hunting! Hum! I wonder what the response would be with eye candy of a 180 BC standing there.Most farmers in the area have posted there land due to this problem. 'QUOTE' Many of these guys made a statement that no hunting signs mean nothing to them! Discussed this problem with fish and wildlife and they don't care!! Then you wonder why your loosing private land hunting rights.

Unfortunately man, and please don't take this personally, but I don't care. Thats a you problem.

I hunt public lands because I kept getting told no. And I fill my tags every year. I will tell you, the lands I do have permission to hunt on I protect fiercely and loyally because my reputation is also on the line too as a friend and a hunter. And I WILL NOT entertain hypocrisy because if I am 100% legal in my travels I expect anyone with me to be as well, And anyone I meet too.

[TBark]

Are there no big deer on crown land ?
60+% of land in AB is crown land.
Doesn't anyone hunt crown land ?

TBark

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by TBark

Are there no big deer on crown land ?
60+% of land in AB is crown land.
Doesn't anyone hunt crown land ?

TBark

yes and yes. Are you here to stir the pot or add something? Cause that is all you have done in this thread. Go troll elsewhere.

[bison]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Watch what you say about oil. Ever herd of directional drilling? The will get it anyway. LOL. For outfitters you don't have to agree with it either so don't let them on.

But charging a average joe is that ok?

If farming is not a way to make money do something else because you aint going to be charging for access anytime soon.

Directional drilling for a producing well from another location can happen if one can't agree on the level of compensation,..chances are that the land they get to drill on is also private land and i have to hear of the first landowner yet that grants them free access

Were did i say anything about charging the average Joe??

No big deal, I have lived without getting paid for hunting access my whole life, i am sure it won't break my bank if i never get paid.
The point is that a lot of hunters seem to make no bones about spending considerable cash on guns and gear and travel and yet balk about paying a bit to a land owner (who BTW has invested upwards to a million or more for that land) for the privelage to hunt said lands.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by bison

Directional drilling for a producing well from another location can happen if one can't agree on the level of compensation,..chances are that the land they get to drill on is also private land and i have to hear of the first landowner yet that grants them free access

Were did i say anything about charging the average Joe??

No big deal, I have lived without getting paid for hunting access my whole life, i am sure it won't break my bank if i never get paid.
The point is that a lot of hunters seem to make no bones about spending considerable cash on guns and gear and travel and yet balk about paying a bit to a land owner (who BTW has invested upwards to a million or more for that land) for the privelage to hunt said lands.

Thats part of the problem too many bone collectors and killers of trophies and not enough hunters . Just like fishing and catching one is a sport, one is done with little regard for the resources and is about the result not the journey.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Thats part of the problem too many bone collectors and killers of trophies and not enough hunters . Just like fishing and catching one is a sport, one is done with little regard for the resources and is about the result not the journey.

You forgot to mention how only the privileged few ($) will be able to collect bone.

As it is everyone has a interest in access to quality habitat whether crown or private where FOR THE MOST PART everyone has equal opportunity for access.

Good posts fish gunner.

[cal9mm]

Originally Posted by bison

Directional drilling for a producing well from another location can happen if one can't agree on the level of compensation,..chances are that the land they get to drill on is also private land and i have to hear of the first landowner yet that grants them free access

Were did i say anything about charging the average Joe??

No big deal, I have lived without getting paid for hunting access my whole life, i am sure it won't break my bank if i never get paid.
The point is that a lot of hunters seem to make no bones about spending considerable cash on guns and gear and travel and yet balk about paying a bit to a land owner (who BTW has invested upwards to a million or more for that land) for the privelage to hunt said lands.

Can I play devils advocate?

After people start charging other to hunt their lands and people stop going to their land to hunt. Well except for the few rich folk. What are they gonna do about predator build up and pest control? Individuals in this game only for bone generally arnt interested in coyotes especially if they have to pay. More deer on the land owners land inevitably will lead to an increase in coyotes and wolves (thats a problem now). Will access be free then?

Well, can I charge land owners for my services? My time invested to be good at what I do is considerable. And equipment isn't cheap. And time spent protecting their property is not in my best interest. Fuel. Ammo. Food.

The answer will be no. And after the deer population build up and increase in predators, well have a thread on here discussing damage to million dollar lands by rampant wildlife and how to control it.

Look this thread is gonna go in circles all day. I only posted on this board because I was bored and I can only handle my other forum so much and the stupidity there before I wanna bash myself in the face with a hammer. I ve reached my post limit for the next 2 years. So cheers guys I'm gonna go back to lurking now. Hopefully this doesn't happen but if it does, so be it.

At least this was intelligent conversation, for once.

Night.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Can't wait until some of the guys in favour of this figure out what the flip side is.

You get paid to provide something folks... there will be a contract...and it will be binding.
Break it and you'll be on the hook for fees and hardship costs and in court.

And it will be regulated to death...count on it.

As for the "other arrangments" that folks are already participating in that amount to paid access.... watch that disappear as the government starts looking a bit closer at the books of everyone involved and landoewners in general just in case they are trying to avoid taxes on their an undeclared enterpise.

In fact I would imagine that it could lead to a degree of fricton between neighbours especially if one is undercutting another.

Be careful of what ya wish for.

[pdog15]

It seems like hunting in AB is going to go the same way as the campgrounds once the camp grounds were privatized. There are many people who either can't or will not fork out what I consider the high rates of camping spots these days. Yet the campgrounds remain pretty much full during the season so yes - there is no shortage of people who can/will pay whatever for recreation. Money is flowing in AB these days so what a wonderful time to implement paid hunting. It strikes me that a comparatively small number of people are going to benefit financially (or think they will) if hunting is privatized - i.e. the current leaseholders of vast tracts of crown land. The private landholders will have their own private "hunting clubs" for their families and friends at no cost so they will be happy. Many, many other hunters/would be hunters will either pay the fees or simply stop/not start hunting. It is sad that hunting is coming to this but as with most recreation, it becomes a matter of money. Not only will it be about hunting, it will also probably be about paid hiking, paid photography trips, paid biking, etc., etc. How nice - we will soon have "WMU's" for all outdoor recreation along with all the rules/regulations/high fees/recreation police that go along with all of this. Will it happen? I wouldn't bet against it when the politicians and the moneyed people are ready to move on it - and the indicators are surely appearing.

[fish gunner]

The funny thing most of our faux rich dont get is a lad with the correct post code in many of the worlds cities could sell a three up brown stone, then purchase a large segment of a wmu . Then put up a fence, lol ,now we send some "poachers" on to your land to chase all the game on to his land a ta- da your land is of no hunting value. So even though well off the poor sod that wanted the paid access in the first place is playing a game in a small tank and winning. when the the great whites show up for the real money our big fish in the the little pond becomes bait. See cause in the real world plywood and 2×6 is a tar paper shack no matter how much stuco and fuax rock you pin on the the outside and the real money is in brick and mortar.
Hey its just business.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Landowner is correct regarding non-paid access liability. The recent decision favouring the idiot who fell off his horse on Hutterite land set a precedent.

We need the government to legislate new laws affirming no-liability access when no compensation is offered.

Actually WB your reference to the Rainbow Society Trail Ride Charitable event where the idiot fell of a horse is completely different than anyone asking for permission to access lands for recreational purposes.

The trail ride was an "event" where liability insurance is required when hosting, similar to any event..

Asking recreational permission is completely different and I stand by my original statement.

[Hagar]

pdog15

As to paid hunting leading to private hunting for friends and family of landowner , it already exists and has been admitted to in this discussion.

Another thing to think about , and this would apply more to ranches then farms , if a landowner wants to they can graze their land to the point where there is very little left for wildlife would in effect be the same as habitat loss . A few extra livestock animals would be more cash for the landowner rather then some freeloading wildlife animals. And if there are no prey species then the predators will also leave. With less grazing available wildlife will go elsewhere and they would learn this just as it learned that farms and ranches now offer relative safety and easy food.

And for those who say they are against paid hunting yet talk about helping with fence repair or other small things to help a landowner and foster good relations with a landowner, your time is still worth something. If your time was not you would not need a wage, so you are in fact compensating the landowner for hunting, which is paid hunting.

So when it comes down to it Paid Hunting and private hunting clubs already exist in Alberta and many who are against these are already involved in these,

Just some things to think about as we explore this discussion.

[elkhunter11]

As to paid hunting leading to private hunting for friends and family of landowner , it already exists and has been admitted to in this discussion.

"Admitted to", you make it sound like it's a negative thing. If you own the land, how is it negative to enjoy that land with family and friends?

[270WIN]

Originally Posted by Hagar

pdog15



And for those who say they are against paid hunting yet talk about helping with fence repair or other small things to help a landowner and foster good relations with a landowner, your time is still worth something. If your time was not you would not need a wage, so you are in fact compensating the landowner for hunting, which is paid hunting.

As a rule, I think the things you speak of are done gratuitously and after the fact simply as a way of saying thanks. Not the same thing as paid hunting at all unless it was either a requirement of the landowner in order to allow access or offered by the hunter in the hope of gaining access.

[whitetail Junkie]

Lots of "what if's" going on in this disscussion.....

Last time I checked paid hunting was illegal in Alberta and will continue to be illegal because the Majority of the hunting population aint going to stand for it,Myself included.

What if your Auntie had a pair of balls?,well then I guess she would be your F'ing Uncle.

Paid hunting is illegal in Alberta and will continue that way.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

Lots of "what if's" going on in this disscussion.....

Last time I checked paid hunting was illegal in Alberta and will continue to be illegal because the Majority of the hunting population aint going to stand for it,Myself included.

What if your Auntie had a pair of balls?,well then I guess she would be your F'ing Uncle.

Paid hunting is illegal in Alberta and will continue that way.

X2
Except for that auntie/ball thing. That's just weird.
But if she had wheels she would be a wagon.

[Hagar]

270win

Nothing is done for no gain, you would not just go out and help a farmer or rancher with out expecting something in return. Even if it's just friendship it would still lead to the same thing. You may not receive anything in return, but you are still providing something of value. So unless you help rancher and farmers whose land you never hunt on you are still giving something of value, your time, for access to hunt. I will admit that this takes it to the extreme but it is the way it is. A lot of us do it but don't consider it to be paid hunting and I admit that I help my father in law as much as I can. It is not just for access but as it is family but it is still there and is still providing something of value for access. So unless your time is worth nothing, a lot of us are already paying to hunt.

[AtimoseMan]

The problem in Alberta is just going to get worst! Last year the population of Alberta increased by 98,000 people.They claim the increase of 100,000 people per year for the next 10 years.This makes a 1,000,000 population increase by the year 2022.General hunting licenses and hunting territory are going to come to a crunch!!
For the people that are mad at paid hunting and guides, I'm not scared to stick my neck out and blame the horn shows for being the biggest culprit.Ruthless poachers will do anything to win that prize.I know scumbags that have shot up to 10 bucks in 1 season and left the small ones [140-150s]for the coyotes and magpies to eat.I here gunshots every year 1 week after season closed just before the horn show in the dark of early evenings.Its not hard to figure out who's the professional poachers at the horn shows,there the ones that bring in a Boone and Crockett every year.
As for my farm livestock that got shot with no compensation I am for paid access hunting. I'm going to get my money out of the hunting kitty $$ one way or another.

[270WIN]

Originally Posted by Hagar

270win

Nothing is done for no gain, you would not just go out and help a farmer or rancher with out expecting something in return. Even if it's just friendship it would still lead to the same thing. You may not receive anything in return, but you are still providing something of value. So unless you help rancher and farmers whose land you never hunt on you are still giving something of value, your time, for access to hunt. I will admit that this takes it to the extreme but it is the way it is. A lot of us do it but don't consider it to be paid hunting and I admit that I help my father in law as much as I can. It is not just for access but as it is family but it is still there and is still providing something of value for access. So unless your time is worth nothing, a lot of us are already paying to hunt.

I stand by what I said, Hagar. What you are talking about is not paid hunting. Certainly not in the sense that it's being discussed in this thread. I do agree with you that my time is worth something but other than that, I could argue every point you make in the above post. I'm not going to do that however. My time's too valuable.

[elkhunter11]

Nothing is done for no gain, you would not just go out and help a farmer or rancher with out expecting something in return. Even if it's just friendship it would still lead to the same thing. You may not receive anything in return, but you are still providing something of value. So unless you help rancher and farmers whose land you never hunt on you are still giving something of value, your time, for access to hunt. I will admit that this takes it to the extreme but it is the way it is. A lot of us do it but don't consider it to be paid hunting and I admit that I help my father in law as much as I can. It is not just for access but as it is family but it is still there and is still providing something of value for access. So unless your time is worth nothing, a lot of us are already paying to hunt.

It all comes down to why you are helping the landowner. If your helping, is a condition for access, or is intended as a means to try and gain access , then you would be correct. However, that isn't always the case, as good friends of mine are landowners, and I do not help them to gain access , or to maintain access. I helped them before I even knew how much land they owned, or even if they owned land that held game. I helped them, even after I had sold all of my firearms, and had given up hunting, due to health reasons, with no plans to ever hunt again. I help them, because we are friends, and that is what true friends do.

It is not just for access

"Not just" for access , would indicate that in your case, it is at least partly to have access, which would make that technically illegal, under Alberta law.

[J D]

Originally Posted by AtimoseMan

The problem in Alberta is just going to get worst! Last year the population of Alberta increased by 98,000 people.They claim the increase of 100,000 people per year for the next 10 years.This makes a 1,000,000 population increase by the year 2022.General hunting licenses and hunting territory are going to come to a crunch!!
For the people that are mad at paid hunting and guides, I'm not scared to stick my neck out and blame the horn shows for being the biggest culprit.Ruthless poachers will do anything to win that prize.I know scumbags that have shot up to 10 bucks in 1 season and left the small ones [140-150s]for the coyotes and magpies to eat.I here gunshots every year 1 week after season closed just before the horn show in the dark of early evenings.Its not hard to figure out who's the professional poachers at the horn shows,there the ones that bring in a Boone and Crockett every year.
As for my farm livestock that got shot with no compensation I am for paid access hunting. I'm going to get my money out of the hunting kitty $$ one way or another.

Can understand that you have frustrations with the slobs out there and you have full rights to. The problem is paid hunting does not change the problem with poachers. This is where an increase in enforcement is need instead.

Before you decide paid hunting on a provincial level is truly going to benefit you I recommend doing some research on it. It comes with a fair number of downs sides for farmers not just hunters. Look into the states with the rep for big WT that have paid hunting because that would be your most likely future if paid hunting came to Alberta.

I have met farmers from Kansas, Ohio and Iowa they see more problems with crop damage, trespassing, and poaching.

[JRsMav]

Originally Posted by AtimoseMan

The problem in Alberta is just going to get worst! Last year the population of Alberta increased by 98,000 people.They claim the increase of 100,000 people per year for the next 10 years.This makes a 1,000,000 population increase by the year 2022.General hunting licenses and hunting territory are going to come to a crunch!!
For the people that are mad at paid hunting and guides, I'm not scared to stick my neck out and blame the horn shows for being the biggest culprit.Ruthless poachers will do anything to win that prize.I know scumbags that have shot up to 10 bucks in 1 season and left the small ones [140-150s]for the coyotes and magpies to eat.I here gunshots every year 1 week after season closed just before the horn show in the dark of early evenings.Its not hard to figure out who's the professional poachers at the horn shows,there the ones that bring in a Boone and Crockett every year.
As for my farm livestock that got shot with no compensation I am for paid access hunting. I'm going to get my money out of the hunting kitty $$ one way or another.

And like i said....your idea to get paid for no other reason other than your pathetic greed will be buried by guys like me

[AtimoseMan]

JRsMav - Guys like you don't scare me one bit!! Your probably one of those guys that dosn't have a tree on your property and bring your hunting problem to us with bush! We use the term and call them Canola Hunters.