So.... What exactly do natives want to be satisfied?

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

WHAT....you mean they have a right to access free education and subsidized housing, and free medical and and and like every other Canadian?

My apologies....that's inflammatory a bit, couldn't help it. ;-)

Free education, subsidized housing and free medical?

Not here buddy, I pay yearly for my kids to go to school (fees), pay dearly in land taxes which include, you guessed it school, and my taxes go into the government coffer which goes to schools too. I have never had subsidized housing, as I dont qualify, (racism?) and I paid Alberta health care for close to 30 years.

Which part is 'free' for me?

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Separation....each one from the couple gets 50% of the assets and the dominant ones pays support. :-)

Lol. Right after the passive one proves how much was put into the marital home through his/her income, wether or not the dominant one owned the land prior to cohabitation, how much each brought to the table.

It's not that one sided here, anymore. A good lawyer and fair judge will see through the scam.

In some cases, the passive dominant caring giving spouse after years of abuse will burn the house, sell the assets, take the kids and move to a quiet desert island away from the greedy spouse, or they fight it out in court, where inevitably the lawyers get rich.

[dgl1948]

I worked in HR for a large mining corp for over 25 years. We have a good number of reserves within an hour to hour and half drive. In all this time I do not think I had more than 12 natives from these reserves come looking for work. I would contact these reserves and tell them we would be hiring and have positions we could put them in. Any that were hired were very good workers and fit in well.
When I retired there were not any of these hires still working. The thing that caused the bigest problem was travel to and from a reserve each day. We worked a compressed work week so it meant coming to work for four days a week. Most drove every day but a couple rented in one of the nearby towns. In just about all cases they wanted to buy or build in one of the communities near by. As they come from reserves, they did not have any property or credit backgrounds that would let them get a bank loan. When they contacted Dept. I. A. the response was sure, we will help you. We will give you a home on the reserve. If I.A were to have helped with the purchase of a home in a nearby town they probably would still be there but as it was the driving got to be to much. Another issue was taxes. If their residence was on the reserve no taxes come off the paycheck. If they lived off the reserve taxes were deducted at source and then at the end of the year they could file for its return. We had very good benifits and they were explained to all our new hires. One of the comments from the natives was "do we have to take yours" Most of them felt theirs were better. It ends up that Dept of I.A. is no help at all. Everything they do encoureges them to stay on a reserve where there may be no work or way of making a living reather than gain meaningfull employment.
One of these fellows went to work as a guideance councillor at a native run school. I met him in a mall one day and asked him how things were going. His response was he was going to be leaving this job. He said he had a lot of good kids but he could not help them much as they would not keep coming to school and he could get no support from their parents at all. He is now an RCMP officer.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by dgl1948

I worked in HR for a large mining corp for over 25 years. We have a good number of reserves within an hour to hour and half drive. In all this time I do not think I had more than 12 natives from these reserves come looking for work. I would contact these reserves and tell them we would be hiring and have positions we could put them in. Any that were hired were very good workers and fit in well.
When I retired there were not any of these hires still working. The thing that caused the bigest problem was travel to and from a reserve each day. We worked a compressed work week so it meant coming to work for four days a week. Most drove every day but a couple rented in one of the nearby towns. In just about all cases they wanted to buy or build in one of the communities near by. As they come from reserves, they did not have any property or credit backgrounds that would let them get a bank loan. When they contacted Dept. I. A. the response was sure, we will help you. We will give you a home on the reserve. If I.A were to have helped with the purchase of a home in a nearby town they probably would still be there but as it was the driving got to be to much. Another issue was taxes. If their residence was on the reserve no taxes come off the paycheck. If they lived off the reserve taxes were deducted at source and then at the end of the year they could file for its return. We had very good benifits and they were explained to all our new hires. One of the comments from the natives was "do we have to take yours" Most of them felt theirs were better. It ends up that Dept of I.A. is no help at all. Everything they do encoureges them to stay on a reserve where there may be no work or way of making a living reather than gain meaningfull employment.
One of these fellows went to work as a guideance councillor at a native run school. I met him in a mall one day and asked him how things were going. His response was he was going to be leaving this job. He said he had a lot of good kids but he could not help them much as they would not keep coming to school and he could get no support from their parents at all. He is now an RCMP officer.

The whole intent of the treaties were to stick Natives on reserves and hope they'd just either die off or fade away. I've seen documents that now circulate the net where Natives had to ask Indian Affairs to leave their rez to hunt, dated in the 30's. The whole treaty system is so complex most Canadians don't understand. People also don't understand that AADNC is not run by Aboriginals and there are a great many making a very good living off of federal monies. Continually blaming Natives is misguided.

Originally Posted by jack88

If I reply or mutter something to that indivdual after he blames me for residential schools:

1. I'll probably get fired
2. If I'm the employer....well you know where that would end up going.

If these things happen it's because of a conscious choice in doing. Again, apples to oranges, if you don't open your mouth, chances are you aren't going to be judged based solely on your skin color. Again, you completely missed the post I was replying to.

Blaming Aboriginals for having to pay taxes in Canada is no different than those Aboriginals that blame the white man for their woes. Our tax dollars go to more than just Aboriginals.


Where our tax dollars really go

http://www.fin.gc.ca/tax-impot/2011/html-eng.asp

[skidderman]

What will happen when there are not enough people to cover the costs? We are there already; just look at the deficit. Some day, (thank God I won't be here) they will outnumber us. We will be the minority & there won't be enough of us to cover the excessive greed. Our poor grand children. No one seems to be thinking long term, government or otherwise. If they keep getting what they want their ship will just sink quicker.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by skidderman

What will happen when there are not enough people to cover the costs? We are there already; just look at the deficit. Some day, (thank God I won't be here) they will outnumber us. We will be the minority & there won't be enough of us to cover the excessive greed. Our poor grand children. No one seems to be thinking long term, government or otherwise. If they keep getting what they want their ship will just sink quicker.

Do you know what they are asking for? What makes people think FN's are simply asking for more tax payer money? That isn't the case and maybe people should research instead of assume.

[jack88]

Originally Posted by Sporty

Blaming Aboriginals for having to pay taxes in Canada is no different than those Aboriginals that blame the white man for their woes. Our tax dollars go to more than just Aboriginals.

So when I drive through a reserve and see structures completely destroyed, you are telling me I should feel all warm and fuzzy inside because my tax dollars paid for that?

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Free education, subsidized housing and free medical?

Not here buddy, I pay yearly for my kids to go to school (fees), pay dearly in land taxes which include, you guessed it school, and my taxes go into the government coffer which goes to schools too. I have never had subsidized housing, as I dont qualify, (racism?) and I paid Alberta health care for close to 30 years.

Which part is 'free' for me?

What happens if you have no alta healthcare anD end up in an emergency room? Do they send you away? Or send you a bill that's impossible to pay?

All public/private education is subsidized by taxpayers that don't use the service, it's not user pay ya know? :-)

Subsidized housing is for low income people...of all races...some are not even Canadian. I wouldn't call that racism myself.

BTW-they built a subsidized apartment block in our town....spent $250,000 per unit. Must be some nice digs.....kind of a PO when you think how long we have to work to have homes like that to live in.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by skidderman

What will happen when there are not enough people to cover the costs? We are there already; just look at the deficit. Some day, (thank God I won't be here) they will outnumber us. We will be the minority & there won't be enough of us to cover the excessive greed. Our poor grand children. No one seems to be thinking long term, government or otherwise. If they keep getting what they want their ship will just sink quicker.

Is the population of Canada dropping? What am I missing?? :-).

[Tech]

You seem to be missing the whole concept of one group having something taken and given to another group.

If the first group gets smaller relative to the second one the system fails. The same thing happens when the second group continually takes more. Pretty simple really. But so is seeing that this 2 tier system you seem to be so intent on defending is at it's core bigoted, racist, only kept in perpetuity by those who stand to gain from it. Or maybe your just trolling.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Tech

You seem to be missing the whole concept of one group having something taken and given to another group.

If the first group gets smaller relative to the second one the system fails. The same thing happens when the second group continually takes more. Pretty simple really. But so is seeing that this 2 tier system you seem to be so intent on defending is at it's core bigoted, racist, only kept in perpetuity by those who stand to gain from it. Or maybe your just trolling.

Fishing is pretty good. So realistically how do you see Canada's aboriginal population outstripping population growth over all? Have you ever looked at immigration rates? Don't forget...this estimated 600,000 they are reporting are already aboriginals and recognized in government stats....

I agree, a little anyway, it's not a two tier system. It's far worse than that, there are numerous different levels and designations for 'aboriginals' all created by government. Then you can look at all the separate and divide legislation and actions under law....all created by our governments.

The difference between our outlooks is that I don't blame the human being that is native....I recognize that the problems are/were created by governments and our system of laws (non-human entities).

[saltwater cowboy]

I like to think of myself as an average Canadian. I think(hope) this "Idle no more " thing will be the beginning of the end for how we as Canadians think other Canadians have special rights and privileges. I work a full time job to pay the bills and a part time to have some toys and fun. I pay taxes like other average Canadians and grumble but know it is a necessary evil to keep our economy rolling.. A few years ago one of my co-workers found out he had some native blood from many moons ago and bragged to us how his kids will now have a free education etc.. Me and my co-workers proceeded to tell him that there is no free,someone is paying for it. His response the govt. is. Our response, where do you think the govt gets it's money from,us tax paying workers. Is it really fair that I have to help pay for his kids because of who did who in his family 100 years ago ? We both do the same job and make the same salary !!!
Where do we draw the common sense line here?
My wife's family fought for Nazi Germany in WW2, mine for Canada. Following some of the native logic her family and mine should hate each other and one of us still owes the other. Guess what ! WE GOT OVER IT !!! Common sense prevailed.
I think if the natives think blockades etc to slow down the economy will help their cause they are in for a wake up call. Take food/wages out of the AVERAGE CANADIANS family will cause us quiet average guys to say enough !
Who the hell has time for blockades etc with a long work week anyway ???
My two cents worth !!

[ken1989]

If there ever was an argument in favor of treating First Nations people like the rest of society this may be it!


http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=1741805410001

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by ken1989

If there ever was an argument in favor of treating First Nations people like the rest of society this may be it!


http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=1741805410001

Holy hell. Another $325,000,000.00?????

I can feel the puke coming up again.

[silver lab]

I keep hearing......tready this tready that, what does the teady say? Can someone post it on here?

[Tactical Lever]

Ezra nailed it again! Bang!

The system is broken; no accountability, no safeguards, feeds weakness and dependence. Pesky nailed it as well. White society would be (and some are) wallowing in the same dregs, self pity and entitlement as the reserves. That's a broad brush I'm painting with, but I trust the point is not lost.

The reserves don't need tax free service and cheques. They need to be brought into Canada. Reading the list of "demands" is just an open ended list of ridiculousness.

We need to actually sign land over to individuals, mineral rights included to Canadian Indians. Actual individual ownership. That's it. Nothing else needed. From there, sell, create, whatever. Pay taxes and have the same life and opportunities as every other Canadian in the land.

Easy? No. Messy? Yes.

But required.

[Jimboy]

Originally Posted by jts1

Oh I have participated. This thread, The Idle no more thread, Killing of the Elk thread. All the same my friend all talking about the same issue. I posted this on another thread. And it works in all the above mentioned threads. Its as some have said beating a dead horse. A logical discussion has slowly gave way to frustration and ignorance and it will never stop.

Cant just sit here anymore. Some days I am ashamed to have native blood in me. Pretend hunger strikes, illegal blockades, blatant and outright ignorance and arrogance when it comes to "special" harvest rights are but a few drops in the bucket that have destroyed what was once a respected culture. Is this the case for all native people? No.. And I say native because there is a huge difference between a native and an Indian. We all know what an Indian is. A native however is a rare breed almost a mythical creature like a unicorn. Something that we all have heard about but rarely have we seen.

Treaties, hunting rights, fights over land ownership, bla bla bla. Its nothing now but a big messed up bowl of crap. There is so much history and resentment that a logical and ethical solution is far far beyond reach. It would take no less then the hand of god himself to clean up this mess.

Something that happened 500 years ago has nothing to do with me. If my great grandfather was in a resident home or cheated off his land by anyone. That sucks, thats part of sad story that mad this country what it is today. But does that make me drink, make me do crimes. Does that act from generations ago create so much resentment in me that for now and all days to come I need to hold a hatred in my heart till life's end. Do I teach that hate to my children? Do I forget about what a proud line of people I come from? How about I act the fool and disgrace the memory of all my for fathers by continuing to add to the demise of my own culture.

No I do not. I stand proud cherish the memories of the past both good and bad. Learn from them and create a future that the next generation can be proud of.

I can see a need to keep lands and culture alive as was done in the old ways. But this is not done to rub it in everyones face. This is not something that you should feel needs to be handed to you. You do this because its the right thing to do, because you are proud of your history.

Reserves should be able to hunt, fish, live as they feel fit "on native land" Off native lands everyone is governed by one rule one law for everyone. Punishable with the same standards as everyone els. Accountable just as every member on this forum is. The grants and "handouts" as some call it need to stop. This is not 1813 its 2013 time for a change.

Treaties were signed in good faith by both parties to be in effect as long as the rivers flow and the sun shines , white man now speaking with forked tongue and make lndian mad.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Just like the commercial says "Snickers really satisfies you". Spence was caught by SUN news reporter Pat Roberts eating snickers bars, among other things.

[Tech]

Originally Posted by silver lab

I keep hearing......tready this tready that, what does the teady say? Can someone post it on here?

There are several different treaties with slightly different terms and most have been modified to reflect oral promises made which were not in the original treaty. Their pretty benign peace treaties, govt provides farming tools, small stipend so they don't starve off the bat while starting farming etc. And most have provisions against liquor being sold.

Terms for treaty 3 for example
http://firstpeoplesofcanada.com/fp_t...s_treaty3.html

Most of the people talking about treaty rights are actually talking about ancestral rights like these guys http://www.aaqnaq.com/en/ancestral.cfm which basically state that any land once occupied by one of their ancestors is theirs and they should hold power over what's done on it and receive as much money from resource development as they see fit.

Which isn't in the 1982 supreme court ruling, they limited them to their traditional resources so no oil, gas, or mining.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

Just like the commercial says "Snickers really satisfies you". Spence was caught by SUN news reporter Pat Roberts eating snickers bars, among other things.

That isn't true, this story came from The Alpline (Canada's Best Satirical News). Unless we're supposed to believe that Justine Bieber is now ambassador to Japan



http://www.thelapine.ca/

[magnummike]

mo money

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Sporty

That isn't true, this story came from The Alpline (Canada's Best Satirical News). Unless we're supposed to believe that Justine Bieber is now ambassador to Japan



http://www.thelapine.ca/

Can't verify the veracity, but she sure is.. uh... How to put this delicately? Awful well fed lookin'!

[58thecat]

Free snicker bars to all, thats about sums up this on going croque. Get up, go to work, make money, pay taxes and do it all again with everybody chipping in EQUALLY. Squeeky wheel on the wagon does not get the grease it gets replaced so that all can eqaully share the load wait that would mean we are all equal, and together we could build a nation of strength, unity, fairness Jeeze I'm going fishing

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Tech

You seem to be missing the whole concept of one group having something taken and given to another group.
If the first group gets smaller relative to the second one the system fails. The same thing happens when the second group continually takes more. Pretty simple really. But so is seeing that this 2 tier system you seem to be so intent on defending is at it's core bigoted, racist, only kept in perpetuity by those who stand to gain from it. Or maybe your just trolling.

That right there is down right funny.................you would think you would undertsand the INM after making an observation like that.

[Ranger CS]

Thunderheart and others who believe humans, "homo sapiens" were present in North America millions of years ago need to read the scientific reasearch readily available on this matter. To date, the oldest radiocarbon dating evidence places humans on our continent just slightly over 14,000 years ago. Yes these people were the first immigrants to arrive on the continent. The understanding of some, that Indians have been here forever and therefore should hold perminent uncontested title is simply bu _ _ s h _ _ however convenient.

[jaylow?]

Originally Posted by alpineman

Canada's First Nations Debate - Globe & Mail.
Now this could stir up a bit of a debate...but it is food for thoughts regarding comments from a reader in the Globe and Mail. It's a short history lesson on natives.
This land does NOT belong to them. Why do some people keep saying that it does?
Is it because that's what they want you to believe? Well then the marketing campaign must be working.

Let's get this straight...

1. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America magically out of thin air one day 50,000 years ago.
They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia. What's more these waves in many case were not related groups of people.
They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains....in other words the "natives of North America
are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly.... They are immigrants too, like millions of immigrants today.

2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth.
The various tribes warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Huron's...oh that's right you can't.
The Iroquois wiped them out. How about slavery that was rife among the first nation tribes until the Europeans came over and freed
the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition"? Is slavery peaceful and humane?

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered.
This is exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong.
That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Angles. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have Roman descendants give Italy
back to the Etruscans.

It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts on the left and some intellectually deficient liberals,
and it will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions and billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.

Are these people in trouble? Yes. Do they need help? Yes.
Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend the billions the tax payers give them? Certainly not.

The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals. They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us
because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other hundred or more cultures that call Canada home.

Turn off the taps. Do away with this "traditional use" and "cultural" nonsense. Educate their children to become modern citizens, instead of finding
their identity and source of pride in some folks who occupied the land 15000 years ago. Let them stand or fall on their own account

discussions over!!! , this guy watched discovery channel and got the facts down. oh my god, why didnt the governent just watch what you did??

europeans already tried to get rid of their "culture nonsense" i guess you got up for another sandwich when the documentary you half paid attention to talked about the residential schools hey? just because someone did it before doesnt make it ok. i remember a few genocides in recent memory. guess that would be ok to then hey? cut the taps off!!! just like we should to all the lazy whites that rape the EI and welfare system? sorry i didnt start my rant out with a hilarious history theroy i seen on television but i guess we all cant be bothered to watch tv and imagine that we formed our own opinions .


ive been through a lot of indian reserves, i dont know why the hell anyone thinks they have it so easy. i remember driving through and thinking , hey thats the life right there. thats what i want. and whats that? an unfenced horse drinking from a bathtub in the front yard? sign me up.

if natives have it so easy lets see who wants to do a straight up trade? cause its not easy ,its not pretty and there is some serious problems. i for one would not be in a rush to take their "benifets" .

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Keep it on track...

I kindof want to learn more about property rights and contract legalities here...

Thats the only hole is see in this discussion that COULD be a problem

The way I see it there was no conquering but rather the treaties merged the two societies. So I agree. This does come down to law and the government must put boundaries around it. I smile when I see land in BC is claimed by multiple bands.

If I was native...looking at it from my perspective I would demand what Sask did by getting lump sum payment and buying reserve land which includes business, farm etc.

Government throwing money at this issue is not fixing it. First Nations needs a new paradigm fast. Their corrupt councils, favoritism, rampant drug and alcohol abuse is because of refusal to take advantage of the system. Preferred hiring for mnorities, free health care and education and job training. I have met some fantastic, smart, first nations people but even they are under tremendous pressure to not become an apple. There is lots more internal education that needs to evolve on reserves before anything we say can help.

It is not easy being native...and they need to take ownership of the problems. Then make a 25 year plan to fix it. Residential schools did not help. We can not fix it otherwise things would get better.

I look at the many drunk natives down town and hope some day they can recover.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

The way I see it there was no conquering but rather the treaties merged the two societies. So I agree. This does come down to law and the government must put boundaries around it. I smile when I see land in BC is claimed by multiple bands.

If I was native...looking at it from my perspective I would demand what Sask did by getting lump sum payment and buying reserve land which includes business, farm etc.

Government throwing money at this issue is not fixing it. First Nations needs a new paradigm fast. Their corrupt councils, favoritism, rampant drug and alcohol abuse is because of refusal to take advantage of the system. Preferred hiring for mnorities, free health care and education and job training. I have met some fantastic, smart, first nations people but even they are under tremendous pressure to not become an apple. There is lots more internal education that needs to evolve on reserves before anything we say can help.

It is not easy being native...and they need to take ownership of the problems. Then make a 25 year plan to fix it. Residential schools did not help. We can not fix it otherwise things would get better.

I look at the many drunk natives down town and hope some day they can recover.

Biggest problem right there. Like a bucket full of crabs; the one at the top will never get out as the others always grab on, and hold him down.

[great white whaler]

Originally Posted by ken1989

If there ever was an argument in favor of treating First Nations people like the rest of society this may be it!


http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=1741805410001

No wonder the average joe as noooooooooo money,,,,makes a guy want to get up real early and work real hard ,even work more over time to pay more taxs to support this great cause.

[Ranger CS]

Thunderheart and others need to gain a better understanding of the historical facts supported by modern science. In fact, there is absolutely no scientific evidence that homo sapiens existed in North America before 14,000 years ago as determined by radiocarbon dating of human DNA findings. Prior to this time there is no proof of human existence on the North American continent. The scientific community consistently hold the understanding that the first humans migrated to North America at this time. Yes these people were the first immigrants to arrive on this continent and it is believed they came from what is now know as Asia, Europe and Africa. Most present day Canadians who were not born in Canada also likely immigrated here from one the same places of origin, just a few thousand years later. Yes historical agreements and contracts do need to be recognized and taken into consideration. It is clear however for some people with native heritage, more is never enough.