Road allowances between private land.

[AlazyS]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I don't mean this as a comment on your practice, just a question: Don't F&W have the right to access private land with or without permission in the course of their duties? Do they need to go find the landowner before they come onto the property to check licences, etc.? I would have thought they did have right of access, but i could be wrong.

By granting access, I mean they have the combo to the locks on the gate. Without this they would be hopping the fence. I just make it easier for them to perform their duties.

[Acesneights]

Five pages ohhhhh hot topic

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by AlazyS

By granting access, I mean they have the combo to the locks on the gate. Without this they would be hopping the fence. I just make it easier for them to perform their duties.

Ahhhh, gotcha. Thanks.

[Blackice1106]

In response to this I can say that Road Allowances, developed or undeveloped, are under the jurisdiction of the local municipality (County, MD, etc.) and no one has the right to restrict access to road allowances unless the municipality has received a request for road closure and lease or road closure and sale, and approved said request.
you need to read the regulations and understand shooting from a road allowance as there have been some changes.
If I want to hunt from an undeveloped road allowance 20.12m (66 feet) I can and there isn't anything you can do about it. If you have it fenced and do not have a lease you are restricting the publics access.
road allowances were put int place so that access to lands is possible. That means if you own a 1/4 section or more in the boonies, an undeveloped road allowance serves to provide you access. In most cases you would develop the road but that may not be required.
This is the same in all Alberta municipalities.

I work for a municipality and know the process.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I don't mean this as a comment on your practice, just a question: Don't F&W have the right to access private land with or without permission in the course of their duties? Do they need to go find the landowner before they come onto the property to check licences, etc.? I would have thought they did have right of access, but i could be wrong.

If F&W are in "Hot Pursuit" they do not need permission from anybody to access private property.

[TBark]

I have just received the emailed docs from the County and we'll see if it's worth proceeding with. The docs outline a lot of what's been posted here already. Reason for application, will the closure isolate neighboring private land, vehicle access, crown land access ? All good points.

TBark

[hal53]

Originally Posted by bdarling

Five pages ohhhhh hot topic

It's 5 pages long, because most guys here would rather take their "chances" on a 66' wide strip than growing some Gnads and asking.....

[Kitscoty Bear Slayer(KBS)]

Exactly,rather cut the fence due to legalities,drive in the crop because its on the 66' strip,but not much mention of just plain old asking to hunt on the land.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by hal53

It's 5 pages long, because most guys here would rather take their "chances" on a 66' wide strip than growing some Gnads and asking.....

You obviously haven't ran into a 66' patch of road allowance that has monster bucks on it every year and don't worry I have big gnads because even when the landowner who doesn't give permission was screaming in my face I asked him if he could let me on next year.i will revisite this post next year when yet again I shoot a 180+ whitey of the allowance and I drop him in his tracks.Also if you can't drop em in there tracks with a rifle maybe you just shouldn't make the shot.Bowzone, it should be illegal to bow hunt on a allowance cut and dry

[ctd]

I find it disturbing that many on here have suggested that they would not help a person who was legally hunting.
I also find it funny that many on here support a landowner who could perform an illegal act in claiming a dead animal on their property.g F&W

For those who do not know, which seems like more then a few on here as to what the laws are. I suggest you read more then just the hunting Regulations
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?pag...0&display=html

The Land Stewardship program is used to resolve issues between hunters and landowners. F&W use this as a tool to resolve conflicts between the two groups.
Yes F&W can and will help in the recovery of legally harvested wildlife from a uncoopertive landowner. Under the circumstances given.

Yes the landowner may argue all they want. But they have to allow access for the Officer to retrive the game.

As for the good judgment of a hunter hunting on the road allowance under the given scenerio, well that may be in question if their is a possiblity of the animal running off to property to which they have no permission.

[winged1]

Originally Posted by ctd

I find it disturbing that many on here have suggested that they would not help a person who was legally hunting.
I also find it funny that many on here support a landowner who could perform an illegal act in claiming a dead animal on their property.g F&W

For those who do not know, which seems like more then a few on here as to what the laws are. I suggest you read more then just the hunting Regulations
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?pag...0&display=html

The Land Stewardship program is used to resolve issues between hunters and landowners. F&W use this as a tool to resolve conflicts between the two groups.
Yes F&W can and will help in the recovery of legally harvested wildlife from a uncoopertive landowner. Under the circumstances given.

Yes the landowner may argue all they want. But they have to allow access for the Officer to retrive the game.

As for the good judgment of a hunter hunting on the road allowance under the given scenerio, well that may be in question if their is a possiblity of the animal running off to property to which they have no permission.

Even the most successfull lawyers, debate written law and it's interpretation. So until one of us can point to a precedent setting decision, it's a matter of interpretation.

What really disturbes me is the flip flop between base line legal and ethical conduct, and how quickly most fold under when the stakes are raised.

What I gather from your comments is to go ahead and shoot deer on the privately bound strip, cause F&W are on your side.

[elkhunter11]

What I gather from your comments is to go ahead and shoot deer on the privately bound strip, cause F&W are on your side.

Then again that could change rapidly. If you find yourself in the situation where the landowner denies access, and you call F&W, you need to realize that they are too few in number, and are very busy at that time of year. It can take them hours, or even days to respond to a RAP call reporting poaching, so I wouldn't count on them dropping everything to rush out to help someone retrieve an animal. if it takes them hours to respond, and it is warm out, the animal can spoil, and all that the hunter can do is sit and wait while it happens. The landowner did not take part in killing the animal, so he has no obligation to prevent it from spoiling.
And if F&W do respond, you had better make sure that the physical evidence supports your claim that you shot the animal on land that you had access to. If the first sign of blood or hair doesn't appear until the private land, it will be your word that you shot it on land where you had access, against the landowners word that you shot it on his land, with the physical evidence supporting the landowner's claim. What do you suppose that F&W will do in that situation? They certainly won't be on your side then. And given the fact, that it is common for there to be no blood for 50 or 100 yards after the bullet strikes, that isn't a rare situation at all. You could call F&W to get them to help you, and end up with them charging you instead.

[j m]

Thanks for the link ctd, I've been looking for that online for a while now. It will get a good read over the winter.

I disagree with you on something in your post.

Yes the landowner may argue all they want. But they have to allow access for the Officer to retrive the game.

The CO has the right to enter any land to investigate but has no right to seize or remove anything from the property if no infraction is found. So if a deer is legally shot from a road allowance and dies off it no one but the LO can retrieve it without consent. If the landowner requests a found dead permit to keep the meat from wasting he is fullfilling this obligation so can't be charged with wasting the animal if the permit is refused.

[winged1]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Then again that could change rapidly. If you find yourself in the situation where the landowner denies access, and you call F&W, you need to realize that they are too few in number, and are very busy at that time of year. It can take them hours, or even days to respond to a RAP call reporting poaching, so I wouldn't count on them dropping everything to rush out to help someone retrieve an animal. if it takes them hours to respond, and it is warm out, the animal can spoil, and all that the hunter can do is sit and wait while it happens. The landowner did not take part in killing the animal, so he has no obligation to prevent it from spoiling.
And if F&W do respond, you had better make sure that the physical evidence supports your claim that you shot the animal on land that you had access to. If the first sign of blood or hair doesn't appear until the private land, it will be your word that you shot it on land where you had access, against the landowners word that you shot it on his land, with the physical evidence supporting the landowner's claim. What do you suppose that F&W will do in that situation? They certainly won't be on your side then. And given the fact, that it is common for there to be no blood for 50 or 100 yards after the bullet strikes, that isn't a rare situation at all. You could call F&W to get them to help you, and end up with them charging you instead.

I agree 100%, and would further add, that to even deliver a shot upon big game in that situation, without previously obtaining access permissions, would be unethical, based on the simple fact that your prey will, in all likely hood, make it onto those private lands. You now knowingly, or should have known, that you are unable to track and dispatch that animal, or to ensure it's timely recovery. I'm sure F&W have an opinion on that, and are not too impressed when a hunter is unable to manage his actions in such regard. If, as you say, that delayed recovery results in wastage, this is the action of the hunter, not the landowner, nor F&W who are too busy to respond.

My God, when are these boneheads going to take some responsibility.

[longshot270]

Crazy all this thought just for a guy who wants to go out and possibly shoot a deer, or whatever. Landowners who want to own the land they don't own so a person can't hunt any where near them, and people who don't own land who want to hunt any possible land they can. I grew up in a farming family, my dad, 2 uncles and a grandpa, who all owned land. The only time I ever would have guessed they might have gotten upset with someone driving on their land would have been if there was a crop in it. I fully understand a landowner not wanting people on their land, and if this is known then you don't hunt there. I can not in any way understand if a deer happens to die on their land why they wouldn't help buddy get his deer. Do they have grow-ops they don't want people to see, paranoid the world is coming to get them or what? It's a deer (for example) not the winning lotto max ticket. A deer is not made of solid gold. Most hunters are not trying to scope out your yard to come steal it. If a few bad eggs have spoiled it for the rest that is pretty sad, but for all these posts saying if its on my land I would just be difficult to be difficult and hope the deer goes to waste, really. Thats just sad, the world is not that bad of place, maybe take up yoga and start learning to relax. And for the guys who think just because they have trail cam pics of a certain old big buck, and sheds, etc. guess what you don't own that deer either. NO ONE does, so don't get all steamed up when joe blow or his 15 yr old daughter happen to see it, walk down a right of way and happen to shoot it and take it home. If it is done legally good for them. If this happened to me guess what, they were in the right place at the right time, and if I happened to see them, I would help them load it up and be glad someone got him. Maybe ask for a pic though, LOL. We are only hunting animals we are not hoarding oxygen so if I get it before you, you will die. My goodness some people need to relax. Remember, Breathe in, Breathe out.

[winged1]

Originally Posted by longshot270

Crazy all this thought just for a guy who wants to go out and possibly shoot a deer, or whatever. Landowners who want to own the land they don't own so a person can't hunt any where near them, and people who don't own land who want to hunt any possible land they can. I grew up in a farming family, my dad, 2 uncles and a grandpa, who all owned land. The only time I ever would have guessed they might have gotten upset with someone driving on their land would have been if there was a crop in it. I fully understand a landowner not wanting people on their land, and if this is known then you don't hunt there. I can not in any way understand if a deer happens to die on their land why they wouldn't help buddy get his deer. Do they have grow-ops they don't want people to see, paranoid the world is coming to get them or what? It's a deer (for example) not the winning lotto max ticket. A deer is not made of solid gold. Most hunters are not trying to scope out your yard to come steal it. If a few bad eggs have spoiled it for the rest that is pretty sad, but for all these posts saying if its on my land I would just be difficult to be difficult and hope the deer goes to waste, really. Thats just sad, the world is not that bad of place, maybe take up yoga and start learning to relax. And for the guys who think just because they have trail cam pics of a certain old big buck, and sheds, etc. guess what you don't own that deer either. NO ONE does, so don't get all steamed up when joe blow or his 15 yr old daughter happen to see it, walk down a right of way and happen to shoot it and take it home. If it is done legally good for them. If this happened to me guess what, they were in the right place at the right time, and if I happened to see them, I would help them load it up and be glad someone got him. Maybe ask for a pic though, LOL. We are only hunting animals we are not hoarding oxygen so if I get it before you, you will die. My goodness some people need to relax. Remember, Breathe in, Breathe out.

I like your line of thinking. The problem is the relationship us hunters have with landowners, or more specifically, the bad apples that result in denial of access. We as hunters should be mounting a unified approach to mend injured relationships for the betterment of the sport. It's forums like this that can be the catalyst. I personally don't have problems with access. Where I can't get it, I don't hunt, but I always make it a point to sell the advantage of trusting relationships. The tightening of access laws has come about for a reason, and those that have created that desire within landowners, should be challenged.

What really burns my butt, is that with any intelligence, one needs to acknowledge that there are bad hunters out there, and that they find thier way onto this forum. We listen to thier garbage, knowing that thier field practices are injurious, all the time the regulations are tightening down on the hunting experience here in the province. Hey everyone, Alberta has liberal hunting regulations, come enjoy and blast away. Makes me sick.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by longshot270

Crazy all this thought just for a guy who wants to go out and possibly shoot a deer, or whatever. Landowners who want to own the land they don't own so a person can't hunt any where near them, and people who don't own land who want to hunt any possible land they can. I grew up in a farming family, my dad, 2 uncles and a grandpa, who all owned land. The only time I ever would have guessed they might have gotten upset with someone driving on their land would have been if there was a crop in it. I fully understand a landowner not wanting people on their land, and if this is known then you don't hunt there. I can not in any way understand if a deer happens to die on their land why they wouldn't help buddy get his deer. Do they have grow-ops they don't want people to see, paranoid the world is coming to get them or what? It's a deer (for example) not the winning lotto max ticket. A deer is not made of solid gold. Most hunters are not trying to scope out your yard to come steal it. If a few bad eggs have spoiled it for the rest that is pretty sad, but for all these posts saying if its on my land I would just be difficult to be difficult and hope the deer goes to waste, really. Thats just sad, the world is not that bad of place, maybe take up yoga and start learning to relax. And for the guys who think just because they have trail cam pics of a certain old big buck, and sheds, etc. guess what you don't own that deer either. NO ONE does, so don't get all steamed up when joe blow or his 15 yr old daughter happen to see it, walk down a right of way and happen to shoot it and take it home. If it is done legally good for them. If this happened to me guess what, they were in the right place at the right time, and if I happened to see them, I would help them load it up and be glad someone got him. Maybe ask for a pic though, LOL. We are only hunting animals we are not hoarding oxygen so if I get it before you, you will die. My goodness some people need to relax. Remember, Breathe in, Breathe out.

X2!

This is exactly what it boils down to. I live in the city but I own a quarter section of land so I know how it feels on both sides of the fence. The only land owners that want to restrict road allowance access are those who don't want people hunting "their" deer! Plain and simple. I wish it was possible to turn the tables and kick these "I own all the animals around here" farmers off city streets. Greed is what it is. I'm a land owner, guide, and still let people hunt on my land. Ask permission, don't drive on the hey field, I'll get it for you, or drag it off is the rule. If someone asks permission and gets denied, if it's not greed what is it? I know there are acceptions ie: live stock or buildings, but if they ask permission and you know who's there, what else would be the reason for denying access?

[ishootbambi]

this thread makes me wanna puke. there are a few landowners in it wanting to save things that dont belong to them for their own private party, and a few hunters that think they are entitled to whatever they want and the world owes them. thank goodness there are a few decent guys as well that understand that hunters and landowners are essential to one another and that a good relationship between the two sides creates the best possible situation for all. no explanation needed for who fits where......its blatantly obvious who is who......

[Houndogn]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

X2!

This is exactly what it boils down to. I live in the city but I own a quarter section of land so I know how it feels on both sides of the fence. The only land owners that want to restrict road allowance access are those who don't want people hunting "their" deer! Plain and simple. I'm a land owner, guide, and still let people hunt on my land. Ask permission, don't drive on the hey field, I'll get it for you, or drag it off is the rule. If someone asks permission and gets denied, if it's not greed what is it? I know there are acceptions ie: live stock or buildings, but if they ask permission and you know who's there, what else would be the reason for denying access?

"I wish it was possible to turn the tables and kick these.I own all the animals around here" farmers off city streets. Greed is what it is Well we all pay taxes for the streets,,,,do u pay my taxes? I think not. I don't own the animals, but i own my land and i pay those taxes too, and if i don't want every jack-ss running around on it that is my prerogitive. And if i let a select few hunt here so be it, my bussiness. MY HARD WORK PAID for it not every person that drives by. And no i don't have a grow-op to hide, in fact i have nothing to hide, but i still don't think that i owe anyone access.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Houndogn

"I wish it was possible to turn the tables and kick these.I own all the animals around here" farmers off city streets. Greed is what it is Well we all pay taxes for the streets,,,,do u pay my taxes? I think not. I don't own the animals, but i own my land and i pay those taxes too, and if i don't want every jack-ss running around on it that is my prerogitive. And if i let a select few hunt here so be it, my bussiness. MY HARD WORK PAID for it not every person that drives by. And no i don't have a grow-op to hide, in fact i have nothing to hide, but i still don't think that i owe anyone access.

You don't pay taxes on my land! You didn't high light the part where I said I was a land owner as well. The topic here is restricting road allowance access. If you don't want anyone to hunt on your land, that's your business, I'm talking about road allowance access. I pay just as much of your taxes as you do mine. Like I said, there are a few people out there I wish I could turn the tables on.

[greywolf]

Originally Posted by winged1

I agree 100%, and would further add, that to even deliver a shot upon big game in that situation, without previously obtaining access permissions, would be unethical, based on the simple fact that your prey will, in all likely hood, make it onto those private lands. You now knowingly, or should have known, that you are unable to track and dispatch that animal, or to ensure it's timely recovery. I'm sure F&W have an opinion on that, and are not too impressed when a hunter is unable to manage his actions in such regard. If, as you say, that delayed recovery results in wastage, this is the action of the hunter, not the landowner, nor F&W who are too busy to respond.

My God, when are these boneheads going to take some responsibility.

Whats a hunter to do if the previous attempt to gain access failed.???
He either leaves and hunts elsewhere or he hunts the road allowance. If the hunter shoots something on the road allowance and it dies on the allowance, great.
If the animal jumps the fence and dies on the private land just remember, the hunter did nothing illegal.

[Houndogn]

i was refering to your wish to kick people off city streets, and the comment of refusing access being greedy, and there not being any reasonable reasons for it. public allowances are just that public as are city streets....doesn't give me the RIGHT to your lawn ! or your Driveway ? Does it ?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Houndogn

i was refering to your wish to kick people off city streets, and the comment of refusing access being greedy, and there not being any reasonable reasons for it. public allowances are just that public as are city streets....doesn't give me the RIGHT to your lawn ! or your Driveway ? Does it ?

If you want to come sit on my lawn, knock yourself out. If you or anyone else asks to hunt on my quarter the answer has been and will always be yes. If someone asks for permission, then I know who's on there so if anything happens I know who to talk to. I can understand if there already is someone else hunting on there, but that's not what I'm talking about. Restricting the use of road allowance access, or making it difficult for the other tax paying Canadians to enjoy hunting season. That type of attitude is what's going to make hunting in Canada like trying to hunt in the states.

[greywolf]

Originally Posted by Houndogn

i was refering to your wish to kick people off city streets, and the comment of refusing access being greedy, and there not being any reasonable reasons for it. public allowances are just that public as are city streets....doesn't give me the RIGHT to your lawn ! or your Driveway ? Does it ?

.

Good point,

Question for rural landowners in this thread??
your're walking down our city street and your kids ball that he was bouncing ends up on my private property, you wouldn't think for a moment about tresspassing on my land to retrieve your ball would you????

How would you feel if I was outside and told you that you cannot access my land to retrieve your ball....
or better yet, if I were a total idiot, , (whatever) how would you like it if I told you that if you step on my property I will sick my 2 bull terriors on you????


We city folks have no issues with you rural people coming into town and shopping for meat,

so whats the big deal if we want to come out to the country and shop for ours???

[j m]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

hunters and landowners are essential to one another.

That would be laughable if it was meant as a joke.
Several farmers here that have allowed access to anyone in the past closed their land off to all but a few people they trust last fall. Their reason was that the hunters they allowed on to control crop damage did more damage than the animals. One fellow they had let on 2 years previous had watched a field for almost a month while a herd of elk completely wiped out the pea crop in it. He didn't want to spook a whitetail buck he was after there so wouldn't tell the LO about the elk. $50,000 in damages for a deer the guy didn't even get.

essential to one another?

[Houndogn]

[QUOTE=greywolf;1195892].

Good point,

Question for rural landowners in this thread??
your're walking down our city street and your kids ball that he was bouncing ends up on my private property, you wouldn't think for a moment about tresspassing on my land to retrieve your ball would you????

How would you feel if I was outside and told you that you cannot access my land to retrieve your ball....
or better yet, if I were a total idiot, , (whatever) how would you like it if I told you that if you step on my property I will sick my 2 bull terriors on you????

No in fact i wouldn't go onto your lawn...Kid should take better care of his toys, I shouldn't have let him throw his ball around. No problem if u want to keep the ball, its all urs.....and well if u threatened me, a whole new ball game..LOL P.S.. so glad u said "our" city street, cause i just know you were including us rural folks in that OUR....

[greywolf]

[QUOTE=Houndogn;1195909]

Originally Posted by greywolf

.

Good point,

Question for rural landowners in this thread??
your're walking down our city street and your kids ball that he was bouncing ends up on my private property, you wouldn't think for a moment about tresspassing on my land to retrieve your ball would you????

How would you feel if I was outside and told you that you cannot access my land to retrieve your ball....
or better yet, if I were a total idiot, , (whatever) how would you like it if I told you that if you step on my property I will sick my 2 bull terriors on you????

No in fact i wouldn't go onto your lawn...Kid should take better care of his toys, I shouldn't have let him throw his ball around. No problem if u want to keep the ball, its all urs.....and well if u threatened me, a whole new ball game..LOL P.S.. so glad u said "our" city street, cause i just know you were including us rural folks in that OUR....

"our" city streets, yes;
no different then "our" road allowances...

you get my point????

[Houndogn]

You bettcha

[j m]

Originally Posted by greywolf

.

Good point,

Question for rural landowners in this thread??
your're walking down our city street and your kids ball that he was bouncing ends up on my private property, you wouldn't think for a moment about tresspassing on my land to retrieve your ball would you????

How would you feel if I was outside and told you that you cannot access my land to retrieve your ball....
or better yet, if I were a total idiot, , (whatever) how would you like it if I told you that if you step on my property I will sick my 2 bull terriors on you????


We city folks have no issues with you rural people coming into town and shopping for meat,

so whats the big deal if we want to come out to the country and shop for ours???

If I was in a situation like that I would walk to the door & ring the bell to retrieve it. I you denied I would tell my child "See, I told you what could happen. We've walked past here every day this week and every day you banged your ball against that person's fence. They've asked you nicely not to do it but you wouldn't because you know your rights & it's public property right to the fence. You didn't care they were trying to get their baby to sleep. They told you that if the ball comes over the fence you can't come get it because they've freshly seeded their lawn. Now that you've lost your ball we might as well turn around and go home; you can tell me what you learned today on the way."
The difference is that my child wouldn't have a ball magically appear in their hand after they threw the first one over the fence, I wouldn't tear down your fence to get the ball & my kid doesn't throw a 165 grain ball that goes 2800 fps.

[greywolf]

Originally Posted by j m

That would be laughable if it was meant as a joke.
Several farmers here that have allowed access to anyone in the past closed their land off to all but a few people they trust last fall. Their reason was that the hunters they allowed on to control crop damage did more damage than the animals. One fellow they had let on 2 years previous had watched a field for almost a month while a herd of elk completely wiped out the pea crop in it. He didn't want to spook a whitetail buck he was after there so wouldn't tell the LO about the elk. $50,000 in damages for a deer the guy didn't even get.

essential to one another?

Unfortunate for the farmer in the case, but,
where was the farmer for the month when the herd of elk caused 50K in damages????? Does he not monitor his land better than that???? or was the one individual hunter suppose to have some ownership in this????