The Answer to the Bowhunter Problem

[KI-UTE]

So with this wonderful early WT rifle season up north happening annually, I would assume that bowhunters are being killed by riflehunters on a regular basis?

That is where your logic has led.

Rifle hunters don't target bowhunter even though they have superior firepower.

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by Gary K

I have never witnessed an accurate shot out to 100 yards, or even heard of someone taking one out that far for a kill. i do not bow hunt, i am just getting into hunting period, and would never dream of attacking a way of hunting like yourself. And have you ever tried to call an elk to within 5 yards? You say it like it seems so simple.

First question, if you don't bowhunt, then likely you are ignorant of matters of this discussion. Why do you have an opinion?

Second and more importantly, my desire to see an equal opportunity hunting season is not an attack on hunting or bowhunting

Sure got a few bowhunters all revved up eh?

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

So with this wonderful early WT rifle season up north happening annually, I would assume that bowhunters are being killed by riflehunters on a regular basis?

That is where your logic has led.

Rifle hunters don't target bowhunter even though they have superior firepower.

What???? Uhhhh, just like down south, when rifle season comes around most bowhunters aren't bow hunting anymore...... pretty simple, but I guess you needed to be told...... Who said anything about rifle hunters targeting bowhunters... I have never heard any rifle say, "I got my bowhunters license in my pocket, I sure do hope we can find a bowhunter to shoot today"

[Caper28]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

In some situations. Again, discounting fly fishing only tournaments, what's the proportion of tournament winners using fly equipment? There are just some situation where a fly rod is not the optimum tool if the purpose is numbers landed in a set time.

How many have tried. I'm sure there's some one out there who has taken the time to lean and could do it, they probably just don't do tournaments.

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by sharpstick

Besides Kiute, who ever said there was a "Bowhunter Problem"?

Admitting first that you have a problem is the first step in recovery

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

What???? Uhhhh, just like down south, when rifle season comes around most bowhunters aren't bow hunting anymore...... pretty simple, but I guess you needed to be told......

The early rifleseason up north... any real bowhunters will be bowhunting their hearts out. It is Sept. And there are riflehunters... not as many as during the rut.

And nobody is getting shot.

But then the bowhunters are hunting stuff while the moose riflehunters are blasting away.

Both bowhunters and riflehunters in the field...

And then during rifle/general, there are still bowhunters in the field, yet they are not getting shot.

Strange according to rationale on this thread, if bowhunters and riflehunters hunt at the same time, then bowhunters would be getting blown away all the time.

[Caper28]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

Admitting first that you have a problem is the first step in recovery

So when are you going to admit that you do not understand these words that you posted "an equal opportunity hunting season"

All hunters in this province have the same opportunity to get a bow tag and buy a general tag for the bow season.

[H380]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Are a lot of bow hunters shot by rifle hunters in Alberta? More than rifle hunters shooting other rifle hunters? The argument seems a bit bogus.

As to the efficiency argument I would say that in many situations fly fishing is in fact LESS productive, so the strange comparison still fits. LOL Nobody is winning walleye tournaments with fly rods.

And even if a particular weapon does have a lower success rate, I'm having trouble seeing why it requires a separate season and zones.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. And I'm going to have to get a bow if I want a September buck

You should get a bow and try it , betting you'd enjoy it .. Besides you live in one of the best zones in the province for big deer .

[FallAirFever]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

First question, if you don't bowhunt, then likely you are ignorant of matters of this discussion. Why do you have an opinion?

Second and more importantly, my desire to see an equal opportunity hunting season is not an attack on hunting or bowhunting

Sure got a few bowhunters all revved up eh?

Ki-ute, maybe you should take some of your own advise. YOU dont bowhunt why do you have an opinion? I rifle hunt and just picked up the bow last year and never felt there was a problem with bow hunters when i just rifle hunted.

I still dont understand your line of thinking, you are given equal opprotunity to hunt, go pick up a bow. If you choose not to that is your choice. Blaming the bowhunters for your problem just seems childish.

You want a soulution to your problem with bowhunters look in the mirror man!

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

First question, if you don't bowhunt, then likely you are ignorant of matters of this discussion. Why do you have an opinion?

Second and more importantly, my desire to see an equal opportunity hunting season is not an attack on hunting or bowhunting

Sure got a few bowhunters all revved up eh?

I for one wish you had taken your own advice. You do not bow hunt, yet we sure heard all about your ignorant opinion. You obviously are ignorant of what bowhunting is about, you are ignorant of what the capabilities of a bow are, and are ignorant of bowhunting success rates.

You do not know what you are talking about. Your "everyone shares one season" idea is simplistic, idealistic, and frankly nothing but you crying and whining about the fact that you have to wait multiple years for a tag. Don't like it? Move north. No one is forcing you to live or hunt where you do. In fact, I think you may find living in Ontario more to your liking.

The 2 points that you have continually missed (they are not that complicated) are 1) separate bowhunting seasons increase opportunity without impacting the number of tags available to rifle hunters (because bowhunter success rates are very low; >15%), and 2) almost every bowhunter who has responded to your crazy post is also a dedicated rifle hunter. So you are not "increasing opportunities for all hunters", you are decreasing opportunities for everyone.

I agree with earlier comments about this being one of the most (if not THE MOST) pathetic thread started on AO this year.




Mods, can we get this locked? Even though Oki has tried to salvage the discussion with an attempt at rational debate, IMO nothing positive will come from this.

[kirbstomps]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I for one wish you had taken your own advice. You do not bow hunt, yet we sure heard all about your ignorant opinion. You obviously are ignorant of what bowhunting is about, you are ignorant of what the capabilities of a bow are, and are ignorant of bowhunting success rates.

You do not know what you are talking about. Your "everyone shares one season" idea is simplistic, idealistic, and frankly nothing but you crying and whining about the fact that you have to wait multiple years for a tag. Don't like it? Move north. No one is forcing you to live or hunt where you do. In fact, I think you may find living in Ontario more to your liking.

The 2 points that you have continually missed (they are not that complicated) are 1) separate bowhunting seasons increase opportunity without impacting the number of tags available to rifle hunters (because bowhunter success rates are very low; >15%), and 2) almost every bowhunter who has responded to your crazy post is also a dedicated rifle hunter. So you are not "increasing opportunities for all hunters", you are decreasing opportunities for everyone.

I agree with earlier comments about this being one of the most (if not THE MOST) pathetic thread started on AO this year.




Mods, can we get this locked? Even though Oki has tried to salvage the discussion with an attempt at rational debate, IMO nothing positive will come from this.

X2

especially on closing this thread!

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

The early rifleseason up north... any real bowhunters will be bowhunting their hearts out. It is Sept. And there are riflehunters... not as many as during the rut.

And nobody is getting shot.

But then the bowhunters are hunting stuff while the moose riflehunters are blasting away.

Both bowhunters and riflehunters in the field...

And then during rifle/general, there are still bowhunters in the field, yet they are not getting shot.

Strange according to rationale on this thread, if bowhunters and riflehunters hunt at the same time, then bowhunters would be getting blown away all the time.

And as seeing as though you are an expert on everything bowhunting and what real bowhunters should do, I guess you know what you are talking about

Have you ever hunted with a rifle in september in these areas? do you have any first hand experience in this? I am guessing no. BTW 330 is not "way up north". There are next to nothing for bowhunters when rifle season comes around. The reasons for this are plentiful. 1st, the vast majority of bowhunters also rifle hunt. Thus, they grab the gun instead of the bow when heading out. 2nd, most bowhunters got into it for the chance to extend their season and hunt more peacefully without tons of other hunters around. Since, the rifle season is on, bowhunting no longer extends their season, thus the guns are brought out.


I can honestly say, in the many years I have hunted and the many many days I have spent in the field, not once have I ever seen a bowhunter in the field while a rifle season is on. Sure it does happen, but you make it out like it is extremely common.

[Rigby]

Originally Posted by kirbstomps

X2

especially on closing this thread!

X3 remove or lock!

[jim-bo]

Wow... The force is weak in this thread.

Bowhunters and bowhunting is not a problem in AB, as for equal opportunity for rifle hunters... buy a bow (everybody can) that'll even the playing field now won't it.

Early hunting seasons and lower draw priorities actually make bow hunting more appealing thus levelling the playing field for bow hunters. I can not count the number of times I have been out of range of game with a bow, and a range that was well within my capabilities with my rifles. You are at a greater disadvantage with archery tackle when compared with firearms, which is why the tag system works that way it does. Further because of the difficulties of bow hunting less hunters actually partake in it, so you have less hunters that allows SRD to increase the accessibility of tags for those who do partake in it.

This practice actually makes more sense economically, lower probability of success coupled with a $30 invest/tag that expires in many zones by the beginning of the General season (depending on species) means that the Govt is making more money based on limited opportunity. Bowhunters make the Govt money because of increased tag accessibiltiy with lower success rates.

This would not be the case if this ill conceived "equal opportunity" season exists.

There are numerous other reasons why bowhunting is the way it is in AB, which includes lobby groups and other standing practices in other proviences. I really feel no sympathy to the plight of the "rifle only hunter," I am a hunter, weapon doesn't matter but each has its place.

It's your party and you can cry if you want too.

[Sledhead71]

The current allocations and regulations are fair in my opinion.. As most have stated, there is nothing holding back an individual to take up archery and extend thier season...

As sportsmen and women, we need to stick together for the future of our sport and quit whinning about different weapon choices...

[kaybob]

A 100 hundred yard archery shot. Are your friends using a patriot missile? WOW. I know lots of people that archery hunt and that would be an impossible/unethical shot for 100% of them. And these are sport competition shooters.

If you are talking unfair advantage think about this. There is one elk in a field quietly feeding in the early morning. You have a bow and spend 45 minutes trying to stalk up on it after it doesn't respond to any calling attempts. Then as you think you are getting close enough for a shot.......*BOOM* another hunting 300 yards away puts some hot lead into him and drops him on the spot thus ruining your whole morning in that area and also taking your kill.

Nows thats unfair. Why don't we just let people quad all over the place with rifles at any time of the day as well and now if you're hunting by rifle on foot and there are other hunters in the area on quads your now at another disadvantage.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by kaybob

If you are talking unfair advantage think about this. There is one elk in a field quietly feeding in the early morning. You have a bow and spend 45 minutes trying to stalk up on it after it doesn't respond to any calling attempts. Then as you think you are getting close enough for a shot.......*BOOM* another hunting 300 yards away puts some hot lead into him and drops him on the spot thus ruining your whole morning in that area and also taking your kill.

Nows thats unfair. Why don't we just let people quad all over the place with rifles at any time of the day as well and now if you're hunting by rifle on foot and there are other hunters in the area on quads your now at another disadvantage.

This happens regulalry in the general seasons up here, even the quad thing!
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I think those vehemently supporting separate bowhunting seasons are being distracted here by a few outrageous and misinformed statements. Let it go guys. Forget for a moment any comments about quadding, ethical issues, etc. I accept that bowhunters are ethical, follow rules, etc. They are us.

Now that said, I think those of us who are more inclined to disagree with separate seasons are REALLY, BASICALLY trying to say is "Why is there a separate exclusive season?" I totally get it that I COULD go buy a bow. Let's drop that. The questions is "Why should I have to in order to hunt deer in October?"

Let me use a different example. Currently one can fish most southern Alberta ES1 streams and rivers from June 16 to Oct. 31. The possession limits are the same for all. One has access to all the same bodies of water. Doesn't matter what you use to fish. Management is performed through daily catch and possession limits. Would you wonder about the wisdom of SRD deciding to designate certain seasons and bodies of water as fly fishing only? Afterall, anyone can buy a fly rod. I think your questions would be "Why should I be forced to use a fly rod to fish that lake?"

Anyways, those are my thoughts. I'm not adamanat about it or writing my MLA to demand change. It's just the way I look at it. Now I've tried to lay out my argument respectfully. I'd appreciate it if some could keep their "You're an idiot. Those are the most ignorant, misinformed comments I've ever heard" comments to themselves. Thanks.

ask yourself how similar is a fly rod to a spinning rod in the end result of catching a fish? kinda like getting game on the ground with a compound is about the same as a crossbow or any other bow......but guns the same as bows?

anyhow, end of day its the diversity of the "big game" hunting opportunities we have in this province that make it so great, from the diversity of the game and terrain, the diversity of the seasons, the special seasons(early and late seasons), the diversity of the tools that make ALL these seasons, and possibility of time afield doing what we love, accessible to us

apparently that even with everything we have for all these opportunties from late summer to late winter and a couple months in the spring etc. isn't enough for some people....its really hard to imagine

why not hunt deer with rifle in october, why not just get your tags Jan 1 and hunt whenever you have a free moment to the end of december, pick your weapon, eliminate bowzones the whole works, why stop at just wanting to gun hunt deer in sept or october

who would use a bow? i mean sure, hardcore still would but really most guys grab for the most effective tool in the toolbox, that is just life, that to me would ruin something very special about hunting in Alberta, like take away spring bear season, it would be like taking away november general season and losing the opportunity to hunt bucks in the rut

sounds like a lazy selfish argument, i don't want to have to sit in a blind or tree and kill something at 50 yrds or less, i want to be able to just whip out with the truck and gun when i have a moment and whack something nice and easy like i do every november....no thanks, i like that there are seasons all over the weather patterns, i like that there are easy seasons and hard seasons, easy game and hard game, easy terrain and hard terrain, i think we have more than plenty of diversity and options

the managers have to manage the game to all these seasons and opporunities, if there are some extra tags and seasons for certain tools because of their lower success rates then they do what they have to do, manage the game/tags etc. to suit....how that makes bowhunters getting special treatment i'm not sure, again its just hunters who choose to expand their opportunities, if that means picking up a bow that gives up to 15% chance of succes vs a gun at 85% then so be it, if management figures certain tools at certain times can afford certain amount of tags etc. and you wanna play then jump in and play, like every other hunter in Alberta has the choice to do

overall this proposal would take away from 'hunting' in Alberta

[Pudelpointer]

This will be my last post in this thread, as I am hoping it will get locked soon.

First, Kiute, let's get this straight: One single season will NOT work, but, if people like you cannot understand the reasons why, then here is the only compromise that allows the same amount of opportunity and equality:

- 30 male mule deer available for harvest (100 bucks in the zone, but management only allows 30 to be harvested in any given year)

- Tags are allocated on average success ratios and the number of participants with each type of weapon.

- Rifle hunters currently make up 85% of the allocation, but are only 85% successful, therefore 30 tags are available to rifle hunters to achieve a harvest of 25 animals.

- Bow hunters currently make up 15% of tags, but are only successful 10-15% of the time, so we can give out 50 tags to achieve a harvest of 5 animals.

In this scenario, would you say that the allocation is fair? If the tag holders all get to hunt in the same season, but only with the type of weapon listed on their tag?

Hold on, here is the catch:

For the rifle tags, you have to wait 5 years because of the low number of tags and the high number of applicants.

For bow tags you only have to wait one year, or maybe you can get a tag EVERY YEAR, because of the greater number of tag and low number of applicants.

Now, what if there are more individuals putting in for bowhunting tags (i.e. >15%), because the wait is shorter than with rifle? Should bow hunters then get a greater proportion of the overall harvest, since they now make up a greater portion of the hunters?

I am guessing that you think that is a stupid idea, and that there should not be any "archery" or "rifle" or "muzzle loader" tags, just general tags. But that does not make any sense from a "maximum hunting opportunity" stand point.

Maybe you get where I am going here (maybe not).

There is only X number of animals available to be harvested; any increase of harvest from one group means a decreased available harvest by another. Therefore, if you force bowhunters to hunt during the same season as rifle hunters (and muzzle loader hunters, and crossbow hunters, and shotgun hunters....) one of two things will happen: there will be a lot fewer bowhunters (= less opportunity), or if we create dedicated types of tags a lot more Bow-Hunters, Muzzle-Loader-Hunters, Slug-Hunters, whatever..., but that will result in LESS TAGS AVAILABLE for RIFLE HUNTERS.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

my desire to see an equal opportunity hunting season is not an attack on hunting or bowhunting

equal opportunity hunting season? lol, grab the regs, everything you desire is in there and way more than you'll ever take advantage of, sorry you can't just run out with the truck and gun and bang a trophy muley whenever you feel like it....thats life tho

but, there are ways you can have the chance to pursue more trophy muley bucks more in your lifetime...you just have to read the regs to see how its done, as many of us do, we grab a bow and giver shizz.....Alberta style

you done with your single minded selfishness yet? its a big world out there with lots of people in it

[kaybob]

Originally Posted by pudelpointer

this will be my last post in this thread, as i am hoping it will get locked soon.

First, kiute, let's get this straight: One single season will not work, but, if people like you cannot understand the reasons why, then here is the only compromise that allows the same amount of opportunity and equality:

- 30 male mule deer available for harvest (100 bucks in the zone, but management only allows 30 to be harvested in any given year)

- tags are allocated on average success ratios and the number of participants with each type of weapon.

- rifle hunters currently make up 85% of the allocation, but are only 85% successful, therefore 30 tags are available to rifle hunters to achieve a harvest of 25 animals.

- bow hunters currently make up 15% of tags, but are only successful 10-15% of the time, so we can give out 50 tags to achieve a harvest of 5 animals.

In this scenario, would you say that the allocation is fair? If the tag holders all get to hunt in the same season, but only with the type of weapon listed on their tag?

Hold on, here is the catch:

For the rifle tags, you have to wait 5 years because of the low number of tags and the high number of applicants.

For bow tags you only have to wait one year, or maybe you can get a tag every year, because of the greater number of tag and low number of applicants.

Now, what if there are more individuals putting in for bowhunting tags (i.e. >15%), because the wait is shorter than with rifle? Should bow hunters then get a greater proportion of the overall harvest, since they now make up a greater portion of the hunters?

I am guessing that you think that is a stupid idea, and that there should not be any "archery" or "rifle" or "muzzle loader" tags, just general tags. But that does not make any sense from a "maximum hunting opportunity" stand point.

Maybe you get where i am going here (maybe not).

There is only x number of animals available to be harvested; any increase of harvest from one group means a decreased available harvest by another. Therefore, if you force bowhunters to hunt during the same season as rifle hunters (and muzzle loader hunters, and crossbow hunters, and shotgun hunters....) one of two things will happen: There will be a lot fewer bowhunters (= less opportunity), or if we create dedicated types of tags a lot more bow-hunters, muzzle-loader-hunters, slug-hunters, whatever..., but that will result in less tags available for rifle hunters.

well said!

[C Taylor]

all you guys ain't being to fair to this southern boy. By all means we should change the laws so poor Ki-ute can kill a doe. Maybe while we're at it we better make it legal to run them down with a truck at night. That way Ki-ute won't have to work to hard loadiing his deer.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Sigh.

IBTL!

[dend]

I have beem bow hunting for 7 years. In those years I have got 2 deer. In those same 7 years come rifle season I got atleast 1 deer a year. So that is clear proof that bow hunting for me is way less successful, and Im sure the story is the same for the vast majority of Alberta bow hunters that rifle hunt as well. One more thing, to hunt with a bow you have to work, scout, get into the bush and plan your hunt very well. With rifle you can jump in your truck and drive till you see a deer, get out shoot it and drive up to it, load it and go. Some people hunt this way every year and Im sure there would be more if you could shoot moose and elk this way. Im not saying, im just saying. Oh and ill remember how descriminating the the Alberta government is to rifle hunters when im buy my BOW HUNTING PERMIT this year!

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

- 30 male mule deer available for harvest (100 bucks in the zone, but management only allows 30 to be harvested in any given year)

- Tags are allocated on average success ratios and the number of participants with each type of weapon.

- Rifle hunters currently make up 85% of the allocation, but are only 85% successful, therefore 30 tags are available to rifle hunters to achieve a harvest of 25 animals.

- Bow hunters currently make up 15% of tags, but are only successful 10-15% of the time, so we can give out 50 tags to achieve a harvest of 5 animals.

.

How are you supposed to know how many bowhunters are in a particulare zone , its just a general tag there is no way to track it . In the 30 tag zone how do you know there isnt 100 extra bowhunters how can we accuratey manage a population if we are just guessing on harvest rates
Not every wmu will be like that but i bet the popular ones are. just my 2 cents

[lilsundance]

I haven't read all of this thread but what I have read is enough to lock it. To much to try and clean up. As hunters we have to stick togeather, it shouldn't matter whether you use a stick n string, smoke pole or modern rifle. Divide and conquer has been the motto for so many and you guys make it so easy for them. No matter how you feel about someone elses tools to hunt you should support them as they have the right to choose, as long as it's legal.