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02-13-2010, 06:04 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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I would take the voluntary seminar, I have lots to learn about hunting sheep.
Any chance it would include GPS co-ordinates to the Ram I am looking for?
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02-13-2010, 06:04 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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So I guess what you guys are saying is that it is more than possible to have an older huntable herd of rams that can reach these ages. And should be more obtainable the farther south you go. The Wilmore has been producing well as of late and if most rams killed there are over 7 or 8 please tell me why this can not be reached in the south where more favorable weather is on the sheeps behalf. As there will be a higher mortality rate if conditions are so much harsher in the north.
Doesnt that contradict your whole theory on why we cant try and get a more mature herd, or am I missing something?
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02-13-2010, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Doesnt that contradict your whole theory on why we cant try and get a more mature herd, or am I missing something?
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You are really missing something. Sheep don't get legal in the Willmore until they are 7 or 8 so it would kind of make sense that's the age of the rams being killed. Sheep become legal at a younger age in the south and get killed at a younger age. In both locations sheep are being killed when they become legal. The age of harvested rams in the Willmore is higher because they aren't legal till then.......
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02-13-2010, 06:20 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
You are really missing something. Sheep don't get legal in the Willmore until they are 7 or 8 so it would kind of make sense that's the age of the rams being killed. Sheep become legal at a younger age in the south and get killed at a younger age. In both locations sheep are being killed when they become legal. The age of harvested rams in the Willmore is higher because they aren't legal till then.......
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I total understand that TJ but obviously a high enough quantity of rams survive to this age to be hunted in the north. Ive never stated anything about legality. I brought up the idea of a more mature(older) huntable sheep herd and was shot down and bashed because it isnt fesable as natural mortality is to high as rams get older! But seems to me saying that the norther zones having a huntable herd of at least 7-8 year olds shows it is possible to have this else where if younger rams arent shot at 4 1/2 to 6 1/2!!!!
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02-13-2010, 06:32 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Setterman
Having been in charge of wildlife conservation programing for the Northern part of the Province I feel I have a good idea of how educational programing works. In my opinion this is the only way something like this would work.
Any madatory course would be very challenging to develop and would take a great deal of time and money. I would suggest that one could organize a sheep seminar. This could be run through an organization like AHEIA. A one or two day seminar could involve guest speakers, experts in the field, CO's, horse people and experience sheep hunters. This type of seminar would be available for interested individuals who are interested in learning more about sheep. A nominal fee could be charged to recover costs of running the seminar. At first this could be done in Calgary and Edmonton and if there was enough interest perhaps it could be expanded. I remember about 8 years ago there was an awesome 1 or 2 day seminar out of the Calgary AHEIA office about cougars- very informative. I believe the "expert" that was brought in has passed away but something similar may be what some sheep hunters are looking for. Just my two cents.
just had to throw this out there. At this time there is a great program that is already developed called the " Alberta Fishing Education Program". The program is already developed, there are certified instructors throughout the province and still F&W will not make it mandatory that new fishermen/women take it. It would be very challenging to get the governmetn on side to make a sheep course mandatory plus I think poeple are tired of the government telling them what to do. Again just me two cents.
Cheers SM
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You could start the coarse by saying if there is any doubt in your mind about the length the a Ram don't pull the trigger. For me if it isn't 2" past I wouldn't pull the trigger. If you want to learn more about Sheep, talk to Sheep hunters who have been doing it for awhile. That is probably one of your best tools to learn about Sheep hunting. I know when a old Sheep hunter talks I shut up and listen, there is some good knowledge to be learned.
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02-13-2010, 06:32 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
Now, back to your regularly programmed sheep show......
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02-13-2010, 06:35 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram crazy
You could start the coarse by saying if there is any doubt in your mind about the length the a Ram don't pull the trigger. For me if it isn't 2" past I wouldn't pull the trigger. If you want to learn more about Sheep, talk to Sheep hunters who have been doing it for awhile. That is probably one of your best tools to learn about Sheep hunting. I know when a old Sheep hunter talks I shut up and listen, there is some good knowledge to be learned.
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X2
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02-13-2010, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
I total understand that TJ but obviously a high enough quantity of rams survive to this age to be hunted in the north.
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According to Geist's study...72% make it to 8 in a non hunted population....no real shock there. Lead poising is a much higher cause of mortality in legal rams in a hunted population.
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02-13-2010, 07:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram crazy
You could start the coarse by saying if there is any doubt in your mind about the length the a Ram don't pull the trigger. For me if it isn't 2" past I wouldn't pull the trigger. If you want to learn more about Sheep, talk to Sheep hunters who have been doing it for awhile. That is probably one of your best tools to learn about Sheep hunting. I know when a old Sheep hunter talks I shut up and listen, there is some good knowledge to be learned.
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X3
My sheep mentor passed away last fall, ... miss you Doug.
On his deathbed, literally, Doug passed on a few secret spots he was holding on to. It nearly killed him to tell anyone, a Sheephunter to the core.
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02-13-2010, 07:26 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Hagar, you can't put the cost aside. The cost would be huge. The problem lies in the fact that you have hunters all over the province so how would you ever give them all access to the course without running hundreds of courses or putting undue hardships on those from outside of major centers.
I'm not sure why you are so resigned to the fact that restrictive changes are coming. You have basically given up and are now trying to find a palatable restriction. I think the point you are missing is that a course is a restrictive regulation for some. Ya, I live close to a major centre and have the funds to pay for a course so it would have basically no impact on me but that's not the case with thousands of Alberta's hunters. You just admitted above that a course would make little difference so why keep pushing it? I just don't see us having to settle for something. I'm not ready to give up and roll over and be dealt more regulations that accomplish nothing or that are so onerous that they put undue hardship on Alberta hunters.
You keep saying I'm against change and that somehow makes me selfish. Well, I totally support change if it makes sense or addresses a problem. I don't see a course doing that...not in a fiscally responsible manner anyhow. If you really want change...why not lobby for more predator control and habitat improvement. There's no arguing about how effective that will be. Sorry but I'm not willing to roll over and take what's dished out.....if that makes me a selfish hunter...so be it.
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Or to make a long story short, no change is better than stupid change...
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02-13-2010, 07:30 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
According to Geist's study...72% make it to 8 in a non hunted population....no real shock there. Lead poising is a much higher cause of mortality in legal rams in a hunted population.
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"THANK YOU" that is exactly what I have been saying the whole time. If we had an age restriction of some sort that was fesable we could have a more mature bunch of sheep and no extended wait periods or draws. There would be a couple years that the harvest may be lower as the younger rams that would have been shot at 5 1/2 reach that age but from there the harvest stats would more than likely level out to what they were previous.
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02-13-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
"THANK YOU" that is exactly what I have been saying the whole time. If we had an age restriction of some sort that was fesable we could have a more mature bunch of sheep and no extended wait periods or draws. There would be a couple years that the harvest may be lower as the younger rams that would have been shot at 5 1/2 reach that age but from there the harvest stats would more than likely level out to what they were previous.
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You're most welcome......sadly, there is no feasible way of placing an age restriction on bighorn sheep so not really sure what your point is.
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02-13-2010, 07:40 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
"THANK YOU" that is exactly what I have been saying the whole time. If we had an age restriction of some sort that was fesable we could have a more mature bunch of sheep and no extended wait periods or draws. There would be a couple years that the harvest may be lower as the younger rams that would have been shot at 5 1/2 reach that age but from there the harvest stats would more than likely level out to what they were previous.
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De'javu
Been here before.....
Aging Bighorns on the hoof is very difficult. In jurisdictons, such as B.C., where legal harvest of Bighorns based on age exists, they are realizing an increased number of illegal rams being killed than with only a horn length requirement.
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02-13-2010, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
De'javu
Been here before.....
Aging Bighorns on the hoof is very difficult. In jurisdictons, such as B.C., where legal harvest of Bighorns based on age exists, they are realizing an increased number of illegal rams being killed than with only a horn length requirement.
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They use age to determine legality of bighorn rams in BC? Are you sure?
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02-13-2010, 07:45 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
They use age to determine legality of bighorn rams in BC? Are you sure?
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Yup, Give me a minute and I'll post some links.
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02-13-2010, 07:46 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
You're most welcome......sadly, there is no feasible way of placing an age restriction on bighorn sheep so not really sure what your point is.
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My point is that it was just a suggestion that I put forth in our previous thread and got more or less told I was an idiot because I thought there could be and older herd than what we have now. I was argued with by many including yourself and now have you agreeing with me.
I beleive it is possible to have an age restiction but that is my opinion so no sense fighting about that but a large part off these arguments that have occured that I engaged in and took all the flak and a few threats for have just ended with you saying that what I stuck by for hundreds off posts is actually correct!!!
Just prooving a point TJ thats all!!
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02-13-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
Yup, Give me a minute and I'll post some links.
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Actually just found it...a special "mature" designation. Never knew that. Man, I can see that being a disaster for sure.
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02-13-2010, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
My point is that it was just a suggestion that I put forth in our previous thread and got more or less told I was an idiot because I thought there could be and older herd than what we have now. I was argued with by many including yourself and now have you agreeing with me.
!!
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I never argued that you couldn't have an older herd in a non-hunting area...Geist's study proved that in the 60s. Darcy, sometimes I think you are so eager to argue with me that you totally glance over what I post. Slow down a bit and actually read what I post...it'll save Rob a ton of bandwidth. What I actually posted and I'm sure you can go back and confirm is that ram mortality is high in hunted populations, basically we lose 50% of an age class every year after 7 or 8. At least that's what I was told by a very knowledgeable sheep bio. I'm quite familiar with Geist's mortality studies and didn't just suddenly agree with you....... You were the one that actually scoffed at Geist's study and now you are using as proof of your point......come on man.......I brought up Geist's study in the first place.......
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02-13-2010, 08:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
They use age to determine legality of bighorn rams in BC? Are you sure?
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This is a long but good read on how age requirements for Bighorns is panning out in B.C.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...Spences+Bridge
B.C Hunting regs, see pg.4, and pg.44
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...opsis_0910.pdf
B.C. is having lots of difficulty with 'Mature Ram' hunting. Too many difficulties associated with aging Bighorns, Dead or Alive.
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02-13-2010, 08:12 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pincher Creek,Alberta
Posts: 205
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Setterman thank you for you insight,I was thinking of the A.H.E.I.A instructors for such a course.I will talk with the local instructor and get his input as well.
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02-13-2010, 08:28 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Athabasca
Posts: 173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagar
Setterman thank you for you insight,I was thinking of the A.H.E.I.A instructors for such a course.I will talk with the local instructor and get his input as well.
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I was just thinking of another angle with regards to sheep education. Perhaps an additional sheep chapter could be developed and put into the exsisting Alberta Consevation and Hunter Education course. This way all new hunters would have the oppurtunity to learn more about sheep and it would be mandatory. The only cost would be to develop it and the instructor base is already in place. Of course this would only apply to new hunters but it is a start??? Cheers SM
__________________
EAT MOOSE - 12, 000 WOLVES CAN'T BE WRONG
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02-13-2010, 08:35 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
I never argued that you couldn't have an older herd in a non-hunting area...
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And the only variable that keeps us from having an older herd in an hunted area with out any restrictions and loss of oppertunity is the harvest of younger rams. Just showing it is possible. End of story!
SG
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02-13-2010, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Setterman
I was just thinking of another angle with regards to sheep education. Perhaps an additional sheep chapter could be developed and put into the exsisting Alberta Consevation and Hunter Education course. This way all new hunters would have the oppurtunity to learn more about sheep and it would be mandatory. The only cost would be to develop it and the instructor base is already in place. Of course this would only apply to new hunters but it is a start??? Cheers SM
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Why reinvent the wheel, the Wild Sheep Society of British Columbia already offers a Horn-Curl Education Program. I'm sure it would be easy to adapt to Alberta. Offering some sheep education in the Hunter Education Course is a fine idea but when you consider that only 2-3% of hunters actually hunt sheep, it might not be that applicable and possibly not the best use of the course's limited time. I like the idea of a voluntary course open to all sheep hunters like they offer in BC.
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02-13-2010, 08:43 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
My point is that it was just a suggestion that I put forth in our previous thread and got more or less told I was an idiot because I thought there could be and older herd than what we have now.
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No, you were disagreed with because you wanted to put punitive restrictions on the hunting public to achieve an older herd. Less hunters and lower success rates to achive what?
You still aren't following the logic - they are shooting just legal sheep in the northern zones. They are shooting just legal sheep in the southern zones. What is the difference?
The study in Ram showed quite plainly that the Ram mortality was a fairly static quantity regardless of hunter mortality. If you wait till all sheep are 7 or 8 years old in the southern zones before you allow anyone to shoot them instead of shooting some of them at 4 or 5 years old as they turn legal you will have less rams available for hunting opportunity. They all will not make it to 7 or 8 years. By shooting some of the rams at 4 and 5 years of age you will not have less rams available at 7 or 8 because the numbers in the Ram study quite plainly show that hunter mortality at a sufficiently low rate is not additive.
At this point I remain unconvinced that we are overharvesting younger sheep because older sheep still exist. And they still exist in numbers that some are harvested every year.
The other thing that was VERY plain in the study was that quality of forage has a SIGNIFICANT effect on horn size, and restricted horn growth in the first 3 years is NEVER made up for in the life of the ram - to the extent that if quality of forage is sufficiently restricted a ram will never achieve 4/5 curl despite the quality of genetics and advantage of age.
If you want bigger rams on the mountain - be sure the young rams have enough to eat!!
Last edited by Vindalbakken; 02-13-2010 at 08:49 PM.
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02-13-2010, 08:52 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindalbakken
No, you were disagreed with because you wanted to put punitive restrictions on the hunting public to achieve an older herd. Less hunters and lower success rates to achive what?
You still aren't following the logic - they are shooting just legal sheep in the northern zones. They are shooting just legal sheep in the southern zones. What is the difference?
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My very original suggestion was that my opinion is that it would be nice to see an older huntable herd. This was shot down hard. Thats fine. Now they say rams hunted in the north dont get legal before 7 or 8. That just shows its possible for the south to have the same or more so as it has been said that winters are harsher in the north and feed isnt as good so obviously mortality goes with this.
I understand that legal is legal and ive never said anything against this.
I stated the wait times may help but never once said this is the best way. My idea was an age restriction. Some dont agree that is why its an opinion.
Argue all you want as TJ stated even your guys study helps support this. If an older herd is possible in non hunted areas it is also possible in hunted areas if an age stipuation was adopted.
Im not saying an age restriction is 100% possible but if it was these are the results.
SG
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02-13-2010, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Why reinvent the wheel, the Wild Sheep Society of British Columbia already offers a Horn-Curl Education Program. I'm sure it would be easy to adapt to Alberta. Offering some sheep education in the Hunter Education Course is a fine idea but when you consider that only 2-3% of hunters actually hunt sheep, it might not be that applicable and possibly not the best use of the course's limited time. I like the idea of a voluntary course open to all sheep hunters like they offer in BC.
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Sure, voluntary is perfect after all the people who take the course voluntarily might have a higher compliance rate than those forced to sit through it to get a meaningless stamp on a piece of paper.
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02-13-2010, 09:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
Im not saying an age restriction is 100% possible but if it was these are the results.
SG
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SG, please take some time and read the pages I linked earlier. This is what is happening in B.C. in an area experimenting with age related harvest of Bighorn rams. It is not going well; reduced hunter opportunity, increased illegal harvest, and court cases.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...Spences+Bridge
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02-13-2010, 09:18 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
SG, please take some time and read the pages I linked earlier. This is what is happening in B.C. in an area experimenting with age related harvest of Bighorn rams. It is not going well; reduced hunter opportunity, increased illegal harvest, and court cases.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...Spences+Bridge
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I have buffalo and understand. Like I said its not 100%. Just an opinion. And maybe more education could help. I just dont agree with the rduced hunter oppertunity as some have stated older rams are hunted with the same oppertuity in our north!!
Just dont really appreciate being bashed for being right an appologize to everyone for some of my posts but I stick by what I beleive.
More mature huntable sheep population with out lost oppertunity - yes totaly possible!!!
Im done with this now.
SG
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02-13-2010, 09:22 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,790
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SG, did you just not read my post, or did you read it and not understand any of it? Or is it that you believe the sky is red.
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02-13-2010, 09:29 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindalbakken
sg, did you just not read my post, or did you read it and not understand any of it? Or is it that you believe the sky is red.
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lol!
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