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07-13-2018, 05:11 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1899b
Unless you are new here, Chuck is a hunter and his posts pretty much always slant toward hunting applications. Your grasping....
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Actually Chuck and I joined the same time just over 11 years ago. I know his posts slant toward hunting but the topic was about barrel break in. I believe I'm entitled to post on the subject just as you or anyone else is. Your post is even less revelant to the subject. Have put more bullets down range in the last 5 years than Chuck has in his life to say nothing of the many years before that when I shot even more. Have slowed down to only about 2500 rounds of centerfire a year now from the average of 5000 I used to shoot yearly. Mostly just shooting hunting rifles these days.
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07-13-2018, 06:39 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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I shoot Bushrat. Here is five minutes ago.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-13-2018, 06:46 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cowtown, agian
Posts: 2,818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushrat
Actually Chuck and I joined the same time just over 11 years ago. I know his posts slant toward hunting but the topic was about barrel break in. I believe I'm entitled to post on the subject just as you or anyone else is. Your post is even less revelant to the subject. Have put more bullets down range in the last 5 years than Chuck has in his life to say nothing of the many years before that when I shot even more. Have slowed down to only about 2500 rounds of centerfire a year now from the average of 5000 I used to shoot yearly. Mostly just shooting hunting rifles these days.
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Yay. The thread is about barrel break in. And the point was it really, practically, does not matter.
So now you've made the point that you think it does in SBR. Great, and he said this isn't about SBR, it involves more practical rifles.
So good for you for shooting a little and getting persnickety. I shoot many rounds a year more than you out of everything from handguns to precision rigs. I say barrel break in is chasing tails unless you engage in a bunch more accuracy involved tasks surrounding that rifle that aren't practical to 99.9% of shooters.
Because I shoot more than you, does that make my opinion trump yours?
__________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
- Sir Winston Churchill
A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody.
-Thomas Paine
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07-13-2018, 07:31 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Does barrel break in improve the effects of fouling? Nobody can say for sure, but I like shooting and I like cleaning my guns so I don't see a downside to breaking in my barrels. If jumping around counter clockwise on one foot was said to improve accuracy I might pass on that tho....
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07-13-2018, 08:04 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rem338win
Yay. The thread is about barrel break in. And the point was it really, practically, does not matter.
So now you've made the point that you think it does in SBR. Great, and he said this isn't about SBR, it involves more practical rifles.
So good for you for shooting a little and getting persnickety. I shoot many rounds a year more than you out of everything from handguns to precision rigs. I say barrel break in is chasing tails unless you engage in a bunch more accuracy involved tasks surrounding that rifle that aren't practical to 99.9% of shooters.
Because I shoot more than you, does that make my opinion trump yours?
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If you read all my posts in this thread and the other recent threads about break in you will realize we agree that for 99.9% of shooters 'break in' doesn't make a difference because so many other things surrounding it defeat the purpose. Then I stated that about the only place it can make a difference and be quantified is in SBR. Apparently that offended Chuck and others who quickly dismissed what I wrote on "Barrel Break In" thread supposedly seeking input on barrel break in saying it wasn't relevent. He sarcastically asked if I get my information from my neighbor as if I knew nothing attempting to discredit what I wrote. I stated my experience and questioned his in the same manner. Apparently that offended Chuck and others such as yourself for stating my experience. Anyway it's a forum where were all invited to speak our opinion if we want. Sometimes we agree sometimes we don't. Sometimes we offend, sometimes we get offended. At the end of the day it's all trivial, the sun will come up in the morning and we can argue and insult each other all over again.
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07-13-2018, 08:26 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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A person would think that anyone that buys a firearm would clean the barrel, shoot a few shots maybe clean it once more,,, then go hunting.
Perhaps us target / hunter class folks do a bit more prep,,, those in the provincial or national match categories prep over and above that.
Many of us know of the guy that hasn't clean his rifle since the day he bought it, we also know the fellows that clean on ever 1 or 3 rounds.
It all boils down to what part of the puzzle in the mix that is going to improve the largest % of improvements first.
The old saying might be true, why address the rotation of earths coriolis, if you don't have the constant shooting platform sorted.
Address the major things that will show the best groups on paper first, then if the shooter has time,,, take on the other things.
One would think that any person pushing the limits would take the time to do some sort of cleaning.
Maybe a clean barrel might be the Golden key, or maybe not. Don't know.
Guess I'll stick to what's working for me since its simple and easy.
The barrel "might" get a wipe down long before a shoot, I'm sure it ain't going to happen when the weekend match is on the go.
Each person gets to choose what works for them at what ever level they want to be.
When I go hunting I clean my pipe, run some fowling shots,,, then put on the miles the whole season long.
Depending on the conditions the rifle goes threw dictates how many comfortation shots get launched during the season.
Guess I'm to much old school in the hunting category, but at least I know part way threw the season that zero is zero.
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07-13-2018, 09:40 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushrat
If you read all my posts in this thread and the other recent threads about break in you will realize we agree that for 99.9% of shooters 'break in' doesn't make a difference because so many other things surrounding it defeat the purpose. Then I stated that about the only place it can make a difference and be quantified is in SBR. Apparently that offended Chuck and others who quickly dismissed what I wrote on "Barrel Break In" thread supposedly seeking input on barrel break in saying it wasn't relevent. He sarcastically asked if I get my information from my neighbor as if I knew nothing attempting to discredit what I wrote. I stated my experience and questioned his in the same manner. Apparently that offended Chuck and others such as yourself for stating my experience. Anyway it's a forum where were all invited to speak our opinion if we want. Sometimes we agree sometimes we don't. Sometimes we offend, sometimes we get offended. At the end of the day it's all trivial, the sun will come up in the morning and we can argue and insult each other all over again.
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Wrong on so many levels. For starters you flipped out over my sharing my opinion. Which of course is you sharing your opinion on my opinion. Thats why I asked if you are somehow getting your opinions elsewhere. You can’t give your opinion and then tell me I’m an idiot for giving mine. This thread is not about SBR. You can give your opinion on bench rest best practices, but it is not applicable to this discussion. You have not offended me, but I don’t just pretend. In fact I put 100 centre fire rounds down range this evening out to 900 yds. My eleven year old daughter was ringing steel at 550 yds tonight with my rifles in front of several grown men.
I’m sure you and I would have a good time shooting together.
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“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-13-2018, 10:29 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,588
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Threads like these make me want to go back to how it was when I first started... pie plate on a fence post, shooting off the back of the truck.
Nauseating.
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07-13-2018, 10:43 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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This is much more better. :-)
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“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-13-2018, 10:45 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: onoway, Ab
Posts: 7,236
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Geez Chuck it looks like you have lots of options to get out to a mile.
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07-14-2018, 03:56 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cowtown, agian
Posts: 2,818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Threads like these make me want to go back to how it was when I first started... pie plate on a fence post, shooting off the back of the truck.
Nauseating.
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Now it has to be asked: did you break that truck in using a sound method known commonly amongst internet gurus? If not then that plate is safe as a hibernating ground squirrel.
__________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
- Sir Winston Churchill
A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody.
-Thomas Paine
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07-14-2018, 05:46 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rem338win
Now it has to be asked: did you break that truck in using a sound method known commonly amongst internet gurus? If not then that plate is safe as a hibernating ground squirrel.
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The interweb was npt around so its hard to say.
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07-14-2018, 06:33 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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If 99.9% of the shooters just clean their barrels enough to get by, do the 0.01% really do what they say they do when it comes to feticulous cleaning practises.
Sure makes a person wounder.
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07-14-2018, 07:09 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Threads like these make me want to go back to how it was when I first started... pie plate on a fence post, shooting off the back of the truck.
Nauseating.
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I bet you don’t change your oil at regular intervals.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-14-2018, 07:37 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I bet you don’t change your oil at regular intervals.
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I sure do now. Back then, when I was a teenager, not so much.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Last edited by sns2; 07-14-2018 at 08:34 AM.
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07-14-2018, 08:24 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Does barrel break in improve the effects of fouling? Nobody can say for sure, but I like shooting and I like cleaning my guns so I don't see a downside to breaking in my barrels. If jumping around counter clockwise on one foot was said to improve accuracy I might pass on that tho....
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in most cases it will stop fouling earlier and go longer before fouling , lot of variables , powder being a big one ,cleaner burning powders with less graphite tend to copper foul easier ,Barrels with a lot of radial reamer marks that are not lapped are usually more prone to fouling as well ,
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07-14-2018, 09:16 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I’m sure you and I would have a good time shooting together.
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Absolutely, and good conversation !
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07-14-2018, 11:16 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HW223
in most cases it will stop fouling earlier and go longer before fouling , lot of variables , powder being a big one ,cleaner burning powders with less graphite tend to copper foul easier ,Barrels with a lot of radial reamer marks that are not lapped are usually more prone to fouling as well ,
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Do you know why it will stop copper fouling earlier?
It's never been explained to me but my take on it is that after the first shot is fired the bullet starts to flatten out the tooling burrs and in doing so it also leaves a bit of bullet fragments trapped in the burrs. If the fragments aren't cleaned out what will happen is when the burrs get flattened out they will trap the micro fragments in the burrs which will in turn cause copper fouling to build up much quicker than if you clean the fragments and allow the burrs to flatten out without having debris trapped under the burrs, giving you a smoother bore.
Of course, like I said this is just a guess because it's never been explained to me as to how barrel break in reduces copper fouling.
I come from the same school as sns2 with pie plate accuracy, only my Dad wouldn't let me use a rest.
Although I break in all my new barrels nowadays, my most trusted hunting rifle, the one that kills everything I point it at, is my model 70 featherweight that I bought new and never ran a cleaning rod through until after the first 3 or 4 hundred rounds!
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07-14-2018, 12:26 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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If the copper isn’t cleaned out it takes longer for the tooling marks to go away , there are times when the tooling marks don’t pick up copper if that’s the case there is no need to get after it , how ever it’s very rare that the muzzle does not copper about 1/3rd from the end , I have not been able to get a good explanation of why this happens it can easily be for more than one reason , could have to do with velocity, harmonics and bore finish but at this time I don’t know , I have heard theories about heat and copper plasma but I find that a stretch , there are two kinds of coppering , a light wash , and the heavy copper streaking , the light translucent copper wash is ok does not effect the next Bullet and will come out with regular cleaning , the copper streaking is not good it will mess up the next bullet, if you clean it and look with the bore scope there will usually be a small striation or mark in the land or groove there ,when you clean each time it will get rid of these marks sooner rather than cover them and continue to pick up copper , once there gone your good to go ,
If you shoot the first round and look In The bore and there is no copper fouling , shoot another , when and if the fouling shows up clean it and carry on,
This is a short explanation hope it helps a bit
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07-14-2018, 12:54 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
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This is why several experienced shooters feel that cleaning after accuracy drops off is essentials doing the same thing.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-14-2018, 01:52 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 256
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Only way to tell is using the bore scope ,patch inspection is not reliable , some barrels require less than others , if it coppers and you keep shooting over it , it will not fix the problem area , copper and blue black scaling cause stray shots , worse it gets the farther they go ,if you have a barrel that doesn’t foul there is no need to clean between ,those are very rare onbreak in
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07-14-2018, 01:59 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2015
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Yep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
I totally agree. I have never used a break-in procedure on a new barrel ..ever, and I've had quite a few. They all shot as expected and most are still doing it today. I found that not letting a barrel overheat, not shooting excessively hot loads and a reasonable cleaning routine is the best route for maximum barrel life. That and Wipe-Out.
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Most people do more damage and wear and tear to their barrels in the cleaning process than it does any good. I’ve never concerned myself with all the “proper break in procedures”. It must have been thought up by an ammo manufacture.
Ken
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07-14-2018, 02:21 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HW223
Only way to tell is using the bore scope ,patch inspection is not reliable , some barrels require less than others , if it coppers and you keep shooting over it , it will not fix the problem area , copper and blue black scaling cause stray shots , worse it gets the farther they go ,if you have a barrel that doesn’t foul there is no need to clean between ,those are very rare onbreak in
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I do know of one proponent of the method I have outlined and he does use a bore scope to back his theory up.
Part of me says that cut rifled barrels are partly to blame for the need to “break in” a barrel. In my experience they can be brutal foulers. But that is only my theory.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-14-2018, 02:36 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,798
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HW have you ever ran a borescope after using wipeout? I have never realy felt the need to scope after cleaning my guns. I ask as as far as a product that shows copper on a patch wipout seems to pull more than anything else ive used. I used to use barnes cr10 but once i cleaned my “clean” rifles with wipeout and got a bunch more copper out i made the switch. I realize for at the range cleaning wipeout is probably not a great option.
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"I don't know about the "shooting Savages" part. I have one and I have had considerable difficulty doing well with it. Part of the reason for this is that I feel a need to put bag over my head to hide my identity when ever I am shooting it!"
Leeper
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07-14-2018, 02:43 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robmcleod82
HW have you ever ran a borescope after using wipeout? I have never realy felt the need to scope after cleaning my guns. I ask as as far as a product that shows copper on a patch wipout seems to pull more than anything else ive used. I used to use barnes cr10 but once i cleaned my “clean” rifles with wipeout and got a bunch more copper out i made the switch. I realize for at the range cleaning wipeout is probably not a great option.
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Rob, I have found the same. I now use wipeout patch out, which I have found just as effective as the foam, but is much less mess.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
Last edited by Pathfinder76; 07-14-2018 at 02:51 PM.
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07-14-2018, 02:51 PM
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OK, I just got out of the basement after cleaning my 223. It has at least 150 rounds through it since last cleaning. I first ran three patches of Otis Carbon cleaner in the bore. I let it sit for five minutes then patched it out. Then I ran a wet bronze brush through the bore 10 times, patched it out, repeated the three wet patch routine, dried the bore and done. Then I ran one snug and two loose patches soaked with wipeout down the bore with all patches coming out white. I let that soak for an hour and then ran a snug fitting dry patch down the bore. The result.
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“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-14-2018, 03:18 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken3134
Most people do more damage and wear and tear to their barrels in the cleaning process than it does any good. I’ve never concerned myself with all the “proper break in procedures”. It must have been thought up by an ammo manufacture.
Ken
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LOL.....Are you a gunsmith who has asked thousands of customers how they damaged their barrels or how could you possibly know this.
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07-14-2018, 05:07 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 528
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Does anyone have a picture of a barrel that has been wrecked by improper cleaning. For all the comments on the subject I can’t seem to find a picture online.
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Friends don't let friends buy Labs!
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07-14-2018, 05:18 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angery jonn
Does anyone have a picture of a barrel that has been wrecked by improper cleaning. For all the comments on the subject I can’t seem to find a picture online.
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Can you show me a picture of a barrel that’s been broke in?
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-14-2018, 06:22 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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I bought a new rifle today, I'll clean it and shoot the crap out of it.
Range time is fun.
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