Crossbows, to be or not to be

[buckstop660]

Lefty isnt profiency a good thing? Sorry if I took your comments wrong but from the tone, if there can be one, it sounded anti crossbow inclusion in my opinion.

I know our rules down here are different than yours and hunting with a bow of any type during a firearms season here is like carring a squirt gun. We were only allowed to use crossbows during the gun portion of the season and forced to wear orange no camo. Most deer are on high alert from being chased by over 300,000 gun hunters. 200,000 deer have already been killed by firearms this season and they still have more time left. A crossbow is a short range hunting weapon contrary to the belief of some and having to share a season with fire arms isnt very compatible. In my State the archery season starts Sept. 15 and the weather is great if not to warm at times. When regimented to the firearm arms season crossbow hunting is some of the toughest to be found. The weather is nasty and the deer run if they see a human shape at a mile away. I'm happy our DNR saw that crossbows are a legitimate hunting weapon and will now allow us to hunt with other like archery equipment.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Still no info on that website or membership cost!

Maybe someone has an address i can mail my money too?.. and perhaps a large money donation....

The AFGA.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Finally one of you admitted they are easier to become proficient at

LC

She sneaks into a strangers house, bitches that the food is too hot and too cold, the beds are too hard and too soft.

Goldilocks might be cute, but we can see past the lipstick on this high maintenance tramp.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You guys read my comments as "anti-crossbow" which I am not. I have never said ban crossbows or ban crossbow hunting.

I read through ALL OF MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD....not one is anti-crossbow. Please point out which one is. I stated I support current rules as written here in Alberta.

Also for the crossbow folks did you know the federal rules may be changing to allow crossbows to be used for migratory birds?

My comments are that the crossbow has its place and has its seasons and actually here in Alberta there is an extended season that is crossbow inclusive, which apparently many crossbow folks didn't even realize.

I have already stated several times that if I should suffer an unfortunate injury I would apply for a crossbow permit.

So explain to me how stating that crossbows should be used as they are now is an "anti crossbow" stance? Just because my opinion differs then I am an anti? What a wonderful bunch of liberal thinkers we have

Again crossbows can be used along side rifles in the entire province, and they have their own season along side archery, muzzle loaders, and shotguns in a "bow zone".

I support how things are now. IMHO, no change is necessary. That's my "official" thoughts. There is lots of opportunity to use a crossbow now, seems to me that the folks using them are not taking full advantage.

I hunt alongside a fellow hunter who uses the crossbow during the appropriate season in the "bow zone" and I have taken him out gopher shooting and called coyotes for him to shoot with his crossbow....so I am far from "anti-crossbow".

I suggest the pro-crossbow guys perhaps read my comments and remove "their emotion" from the equation....Again how many crossbow users without disability permits hunt in general seasons with a crossbow? I hunt in general seasons with my bow all the time....a rifle can be used there I choose not to use one. I like the added challenge.

Finally one of you admitted they are easier to become proficient at

LC

First, I also agree with how the regs. are now for Xbows and would prefer they stay the same, but I can see them being added to "Archery" seasons in the future, because in the end, they are not that much different from bows, in that they are also short range weapons firing an "arrow" or bolt.
One reason that I can see why xbow enthusiasts are feeling left out is the time of year that they can start hunting.
Lefty gives some good arguments as to how much time is available to xbow hunters if they want it, but it really isn't the same. For myself, bow season starts Sept.1 and the weather is definetly not the same as it is Nov.1. I would have to drive a long ways to xbow hunt in late Sept, or in Oct, and a lot of those hunts require a draw.
Hunting in Sept. and even Oct. is very different from hunting in Nov. and Dec, esp. when you don't need a draw, and you also have a chance to harvest a buck in velvet, which I have never heard of happening in Nov.
As for the "extended" season lefty refers to which is the "Strathcona White-Tailed Deer Licence", this hunt only occurs in one small area of Alberta, and believe me when I say that this is a very populated area where you must have permission from a private landowner. Absoulutly no Crown land to hunt, and no hunting on County land. And of course it is only for White Tailed Deer.
Personally, though I like the way the regs. are now, it wouldn't bother me to have xbows included with archery seasons. As a matter of fact, it would probably reduce the congestion of hunters hunting in WMU 248, which is where I live and do a lot of hunting.

[catnthehat]

Get rid of it all except for the special areas where they need something like a short range weapon like a cross bow , archery bow or a black powder rifle or shotgun.
Limit the shotguns to smoothbore , and the muzzle loaders to a side lock percussion cap or flint style - or a matchlock if that turns your crank.
Let the bloody Atlatl guys hunt as well.
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterninja

First, I also agree with how the regs. are now for Xbows and would prefer they stay the same, but I can see them being added to "Archery" seasons in the future, because in the end, they are not that much different from bows, in that they are also short range weapons firing an "arrow" or bolt.
One reason that I can see why xbow enthusiasts are feeling left out is the time of year that they can start hunting.
Lefty gives some good arguments as to how much time is available to xbow hunters if they want it, but it really isn't the same. For myself, bow season starts Sept.1 and the weather is definetly not the same as it is Nov.1. I would have to drive a long ways to xbow hunt in late Sept, or in Oct, and a lot of those hunts require a draw.
Hunting in Sept. and even Oct. is very different from hunting in Nov. and Dec, esp. when you don't need a draw, and you also have a chance to harvest a buck in velvet, which I have never heard of happening in Nov.
As for the "extended" season lefty refers to which is the "Strathcona White-Tailed Deer Licence", this hunt only occurs in one small area of Alberta, and believe me when I say that this is a very populated area where you must have permission from a private landowner. Absoulutly no Crown land to hunt, and no hunting on County land. And of course it is only for White Tailed Deer.
Personally, though I like the way the regs. are now, it wouldn't bother me to have xbows included with archery seasons. As a matter of fact, it would probably reduce the congestion of hunters hunting in WMU 248, which is where I live and do a lot of hunting.

I would like to add...nothing stops a crossbow Hunter from picking up a bow.

LC

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I would like to add...nothing stops a crossbow Hunter from picking up a bow.

LC

Not true, some youth can not pull the required weight for legal vertical weapons. As well, I know of a few elderly, men and women which again can not pull legal vertical weights..

These individuals will not qualify for the unicorn permit as there is no disability to warrant the horizontal weapon.

I bet there are others out there in our community who may have a fair build, or just don't have the muscular power to achieve the vertical weight mark.

Silly these horizontals are lumped into a season where powder is the propellant to success.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Moose don't have arms.

Well, not any more... Ours is down to just an arm.

Wow, that would be something... An armed moose... Scary stuff.

Sorry. I digress...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Not true, some youth can not pull the required weight for legal vertical weapons. As well, I know of a few elderly, men and women which again can not pull legal vertical weights..

These individuals will not qualify for the unicorn permit as there is no disability to warrant the horizontal weapon.

I bet there are others out there in our community who may have a fair build, or just don't have the muscular power to achieve the vertical weight mark.

Silly these horizontals are lumped into a season where powder is the propellant to success.

You brought up a specific issue, the majority likely could shoot a bow if they chose to.

The ABA has requested the legal weight be reduced to 35lbs due to advancements in modern bows.

If a person cannot pull the required 40lbs they can apply for a permit...it's the person issuing the permit that we need held accountable for the refusal.

LC

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You brought up a specific issue, the majority likely could shoot a bow if they chose to.

The ABA has requested the legal weight be reduced to 35lbs due to advancements in modern bows.

If a person cannot pull the required 40lbs they can apply for a permit...it's the person issuing the permit that we need held accountable for the refusal.

LC

The majority of compound peeps could shoot traditional if they want too as well, but we do not force this upon our group like the horizontal rules.

I really hope the legal weight does NOT go down, this proposal is not going to do our passion any favours.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

The majority of compound peeps could shoot traditional if they want too as well, but we do not force this upon our group like the horizontal rules.

I really hope the legal weight does NOT go down, this proposal is not going to do our passion any favours.

What is the legal draw weight in other provinces? Like BC and Saskatchewan?

LC

[Salavee]

"Finally one of you admitted they are easier to become proficient at

LC"

I don't see an issue with admitting Crossbows may be easier to become proficient with- that's almost a given. However, they are certainly not easier to hunt with. In fact, Crossbows are much more difficult to use in the vast majority of hunting situations than Compounds.
Proficiency with any hunting tool should be paramount in any event. It's becoming more apparent that there are far too many non-proficient Compound hunters out there anyway. By a fair margin, not all Compound users are in the Elite category, that's for sure.

Now, back to Protectionism ..

[Hydro1]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

What is the legal draw weight in other provinces? Like BC and Saskatchewan?

LC

It's 18kg in bc. So essentially the same as ours.

Though the minimum draw weight for a crossbow is stupidly low if I remember correctly.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Salavee

"Finally one of you admitted they are easier to become proficient at

LC"

I don't see an issue with admitting Crossbows may be easier to become proficient with- that's almost a given. However, they are certainly not easier to hunt with. In fact, Crossbows are much more difficult to use is the vast majority of hunting situations than Compounds.
Proficiency with any hunting tool should be paramount in any event. It's becoming more apparent that there are far too many non-proficient Compound hunters out there anyway. By a fair margin, not all Compound users are in the Elite category, that's for sure.

Now, back to Protectionism ..

Folks disputed the above, I am glad you agree with me.

LC

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The AFGA..

I was looking for an association that only deals with xbows, not everything else. I wouldnt want my money going to something like spear hunting or fishing.

[elkhunter11]

I know several people, that have told me that although they have no interest in hunting with a bow, they would buy a crossbow if they were allowed to be used in the archery season. Their reasoning is that they are not willing to spend the time learning to become proficient with a traditional or compound bow, but they would feel comfortable shooting a crossbow a few times before the hunting season, and then going hunting, just like they do with their firearms.

[winged1]

The comments about season timing has resonated with me. Xbow is without a doubt, a short range weapon, similar to compound, and blackpowder. Relegating it to the rifle season is in my mind unjust. For it to be practical as a hunting method, it would seem most logical for it to be allowed during pre rifle seasons. It really is a variation of mechanical advantage, as is the compound, over the purist long bow.

[Sledhead71]

If we break this debate down into simple terms it would look similar to this.

Traditional Equipment

Device crafted from wood typically, with a string attached capable of sending a projectile with muscular power and finger release.

Compound Equipment

Device crafted from carbon typically, fitted with cams ( 80% let off ) attached to string capable of sending a projectile with muscular power and mechanical release if chosen. Options included are sites, rests, mechanical releases, range finders, quivers, carry strap, ext.

Horizontal Equipment

Similar in options and design as compound equipment with the addition of a trigger style release. Limited to less distance than compounds due to length of projectile.

So, IMHO, the differences between compounds and horizontals are so minor if you compare either to traditional that it is silly these horizontals are not included in the archery season.

[buckstop660]

Lefty, You seem to be glossing over the profiency aspect and the result. If compound, recurve, and longbow take so long to master doesnt that result in less than masterful hunters afield, who will undoubtedly make poor shots resulting in wounded and lost game. I highly doubt new archers wait to become fully proficient with their verticle before going afield. I admitted that crossbows are easier to become proficient with can you admit that more game is wounded and lost by verticle archers? I hunt more with my compound bow than with a crossbow given the conditions I will experience. But I do like to have the choice.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I know several people, that have told me that although they have no interest in hunting with a bow, they would buy a crossbow if they were allowed to be used in the archery season. Their reasoning is that they are not willing to spend the time learning to become proficient with a traditional or compound bow, but they would feel comfortable shooting a crossbow a few times before the hunting season, and then going hunting, just like they do with their firearms.

Lefty .. since when was the time required to become proficient the fundamental criteria for inclusion of Crossbows in the archery category ?
If that were the case I'm thinking there would be far fewer "Bowhunters" out there.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by buckstop660

Lefty, You seem to be glossing over the profiency aspect and the result. If compound, recurve, and longbow take so long to master doesnt that result in less than masterful hunters afield, who will undoubtedly make poor shots resulting in wounded and lost game. I highly doubt new archers wait to become fully proficient with their verticle before going afield. I admitted that crossbows are easier to become proficient with can you admit that more game is wounded and lost by verticle archers? I hunt more with my compound bow than with a crossbow given the conditions I will experience. But I do like to have the choice.

Honestly.....I think more game is lost with rifles over all else. Likely due to sheer numbers.

LC

[waterninja]

I have to agree with another poster who stated that he was surprized that this thread has not deginerated into insults and name calling.
Other then a lost arm (leg?) or 2, this thread has remained civil even after 5 "pages".

[Hydro1]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Honestly.....I think more game is lost with rifles over all else. Likely due to sheer numbers.

LC

Which is also why more game would be lost with recurves/compounds over crossbows.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Quick story for amusement purpose, in WSS one day chatting with a guy who is a member here. Another guy comes in looking for a crossbow to shoot coyotes around his home with. Wants a quiet weapon he can shoot 150yards with because he wants to kill coyotes but not disturb his neighbors. Says he has no time to shoot a bow to practice. So the crossbow was the "obvious choice".

No I am not making this up

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Hydro1

Which is also why more game would be lost with recurves/compounds over crossbows.

What about in Saskatchewan where xbows are allowed during archery season? I don't have any solid numbers regarding attempts vs. wounds or loss due to method chosen or any numbers just personal observations.

There is a perception I have observed that people have to practice less with a crossbow than a trad or compound bow to be ready to hunt though.

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Lefty .. since when was the time required to become proficient the fundamental criteria for inclusion of Crossbows in the archery category ?
If that were the case I'm thinking there would be far fewer "Bowhunters" out there.

The quote you quoted is not mine.

LC

[Salavee]

Sorry .. my bad. Over to Elkhunter 11

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Sorry .. my bad. Over to Elkhunter 11

You were probably confused by their post counts.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

You were probably confused by their post counts.

Yah maybe I should request a name change and take a mulligan lol

LC

[calgarychef]

I'm generally against crossbows for archery seasons because of all of the reasons ever expressed. But here's an alternative and I think it would benefit any of the string hunters.

If crossbows were allowed in archery seasons BUT at the same time there were several additional bowzones created around the province it would provide additional opportunity. Places that come to mind, are red deer, Medicine Hat, lethbridge. Any of the towns that are becoming larger urban centres could benefit from this. The loss in opportunity to current bow hunters would be made up by having more areas with archery only opportunity. Many of these areas are already very difficult to rifle hunt because of human population densities, many acerages etc. so the rifle opportunity isn't there to be lost.

Ok let's take it in another direction, what if archery zones were created to encompass a variety of Eco systems across the province. Boreal forest, parkland,mountains, foothills, prairie. So that archery could be enjoyed throughout the province for a variety of game. We might even look at archery only tags for those areas, so that the string hunters couldn't encroach onto the rifle zones if they strike out. It would eliminate the hunters who only use strings as a method of engaging the longer seasons. The hunters who would choose to hunt with strings only would be serious about it and less likely to be weekend warriors more likely to wound game through inexperience.

Everyone wins a bit and everyone loses a bit by doing the above. The biggest losers would be rifle hunters but don't jump on me yet.... as stated above lots of the areas that could be converted to bow zones aren't conducive to rifles already.

Think about it for awhile, there's not many downsides.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Yah maybe I should request a name change and take a mulligan lol

LC

Talking lefty Canuck would throw em for a loop.